Support NeoGAF

[BocoDragon]

I'm REALLY enjoying this game. It's been such a great gameplay experience to have an open world with a sense of urgency.

I'm thinking back to when the reviews came out, and all of the people who took the 7s and 8s as being indicative of the same old laughable XIII series' mediocrity. It is not anything like that... Those knee jerk assumptions were wrong, whether they would ultimately like the game or not: it is too original to be pigeonholed.

Lightning Returns is like a new Secret of Evermore, Vagrant Story, FFXII or Nier. Some with love it, some will loathe it, but it is a unique experience with unique gameplay and a unique atmosphere. Even though it is not a perfect experience, simply by sheer value of its difference from previous entries, I would declare FF to be unstuck from the rut that it has recently presumed to be in. This has broken any such pattern on which to draw any presumptions for future entries.

 

[Alvarez]

I'm thinking back to when the reviews came out, and all of the people who took the 7s and 8s as being indicative of the same old laughable XIII series' mediocrity. It is not anything like that... Those knee jerk assumptions were wrong, whether they would ultimately like the game or not: it is too original to be pigeonholed.

Lightning Returns is mediocre, though it's full of smoke and mirrors that could lead some to believe otherwise.

LR's time limit is meaningless, for starters. Not only can it be completely controlled via Chronostasis, but even when Chronostasis is not used at all, players who seek to complete every quest in the game will be left with 4-5+ days left with absolutely nothing to do. I know this firsthand because I didn't use Chronostasis in my playthrough and I don't know anyone who actually ran out of time when playing the game--not a single person. LR's time mechanic may not have initially been intended to be nothing more than an artificial way to elongate a game devoid of significant content, but that's exactly what it is.

The battle system? Despite many ignorant claims to the contrary, the battle system is extremely limited. While the illusion of customization is there, one cannot simply forego Guard or its like. While the player is drowned with schematas, most of them simply aren't viable for significant encounters. There are many abilities and accessories... most of which can never be used both because they aren't exceptional for anything and because there simply is no room in a typical schema. Some abilities, such as Tornado, don't even have niche uses. They are literally worthless.

Let's not forget that the Stagger/Break system was stolen from the Xenosaga series (which called the mechanics Stagger and Break, if you're wondering), and so the very basics of the battle system are by definition mediocre.

90% of the story content comes in the form of MMO-style fetch quests featuring needy throwaway copy-and-paste characters that the player is unable to sympathize with. Adonis, for example, is reused over ten times in the game as different quest "characters" (hubs). If that's not mediocrity, I don't know what is.

At first glance LR looks and sounds extremely different, but it doesn't take a keen eye to determine that it's a skeletal budget game inundated with poor quality (but easily crafted) quest content and deep philosophical monologue nonsense--none of which is able to disguise how little it has to offer.

I personally believe that the only fun or even notable thing about Lightning Returns is one's ability to become more adept at guarding, but the ability to do timed guards--an action game staple for decades now--is not enough to excuse the rest of the game. EDIT: Actually, the other notable thing is that LR has the best FF soundtrack since FF12.

 

[Alvarez]

The last boss is really kicking my ass.
I'm having trouble building the stagger at all.
Am I just terrible at the battle system somehow?
I'm using Fira and Aeroa on Triangle and Element and Thunder on square with two Schema. The last schema has Blizzard on Square and Beat Down on Triangle. Is this a good setup? Its what I've ended up with after trying to beat it multiple times, but I feel like I'm just pushing my face against a brick wall. /:

By "last boss", what phase are you talking about exactly? The fourth (and final) phase, or can you not even beat his first forms?

You need to be using -ra spells, not -ga and not base spells. Get rid of Element too. Aerora and Thundara are the most effective magic stagger spells.

Try this:

Schema 1: Aerora
Schema 2: Thundara
Schema 3: Beat Down

2 Aerora > 2 Thundara > Beat Down > Repeat

You want to avoid using too many of the same spells in a row. Because of the game's poor design, Lightning's fancy backflips and long animations are very bad and will prevent you from staggering enemies.

Alternatively, this works just as well:

Schema 1: Beat Down
Schema 2: Aerora
Schema 3: Artemis' Arrows (Soldier of Peace Schemata + Heavy Slash)

 

[Shinta]

I'm REALLY enjoying this game. It's been such a great gameplay experience to have an open world with a sense of urgency.

I'm thinking back to when the reviews came out, and all of the people who took the 7s and 8s as being indicative of the same old laughable XIII series' mediocrity. It is not anything like that... Those knee jerk assumptions were wrong, whether they would ultimately like the game or not: it is too original to be pigeonholed.

Lightning Returns is like a new Secret of Evermore, Vagrant Story, FFXII or Nier. Some with love it, some will loathe it, but it is a unique experience with unique gameplay and a unique atmosphere. Even though it is not a perfect experience, simply by sheer value of its difference from previous entries, I would declare FF to be unstuck from the rut that it has recently presumed to be in. This has broken any such pattern on which to draw any presumptions for future entries.

Pretty much how I feel. I actually compared it to NieR right away (even roughly the same metacritic score), and said that the game will eventually be a cult hit. It's a very fun RPG. Glad you're enjoying it.

Even simple stuff like platforming, zipping up ladders, and dashing and jumping well are better here than they've ever been in the FF series. I actually really enjoyed the dialogue too, as well as the story. I think it's easily Lightning's best character showing, and it actually finally made me really like the character.

That's also why I said that if you take all 3 games as a whole, the XIII trilogy is actually a pretty amazing journey. All 3 games are very unique, and together, they cover almost everything I like about RPGs.

 

[BocoDragon]

Pretty much how I feel. I actually compared it to NieR right away (even roughly the same metacritic score), and said that the game will eventually be a cult hit. It's a very fun RPG. Glad you're enjoying it.

Even simple stuff like platforming, zipping up ladders, and dashing and jumping well are better here than they've ever been in the FF series. I actually really enjoyed the dialogue too, as well as the story. I think it's easily Lightning's best character showing, and it actually finally made me really like the character.

That's also why I said that if you take all 3 games as a whole, the XIII trilogy is actually a pretty amazing journey. All 3 games are very unique, and together, they cover almost everything I like about RPGs.

LR will definitely be a cult hit. A "dark horse" pick for many future favorite FF list threads

And yes, I'm enjoying the character and story beats a lot here. I like Lightning as this reborn angel figure .. The whole thing seems well written and I feel engaged with the plot (this is really saying something because I was disengaged from XIII and XIII-2)

Lightning Returns is mediocre, though it's full of smoke and mirrors that could lead some to believe otherwise.

LR's time limit is meaningless, for starters. Not only can it be completely controlled via Chronostasis, but even when Chronostasis is not used at all, players who seek to complete every quest in the game will be left with 4-5+ days left with absolutely nothing to do. I know this firsthand because I didn't use Chronostasis in my playthrough and I don't know anyone who actually ran out of time when playing the game--not a single person. LR's time mechanic may not have initially been intended to be nothing more than an artificial way to elongate a game devoid of significant content, but that's exactly what it is.

The battle system? Despite many ignorant claims to the contrary, the battle system is extremely limited. While the illusion of customization is there, one cannot simply forego Guard or its like. While the player is drowned with schematas, most of them simply aren't viable for significant encounters. There are many abilities and accessories... most of which can never be used both because they aren't exceptional for anything and because there simply is no room in a typical schema. Some abilities, such as Tornado, don't even have niche uses. They are literally worthless.

Let's not forget that the Stagger/Break system was stolen from the Xenosaga series (which called the mechanics Stagger and Break, if you're wondering), and so the very basics of the battle system are by definition mediocre.

90% of the story content comes in the form of MMO-style fetch quests featuring needy throwaway copy-and-paste characters that the player is unable to sympathize with. Adonis, for example, is reused over ten times in the game as different quest "characters" (hubs). If that's not mediocrity, I don't know what is.

At first glance LR looks and sounds extremely different, but it doesn't take a keen eye to determine that it's a skeletal budget game inundated with poor quality (but easily crafted) quest content and deep philosophical monologue nonsense--none of which is able to disguise how little it has to offer.

I personally believe that the only fun or even notable thing about Lightning Returns is one's ability to become more adept at guarding, but the ability to do timed guards--an action game staple for decades now--is not enough to excuse the rest of the game.

Not feeling your assessment at all now, bro. But I'll need to play more in order to form a legitimate response to this scathing condemnation of a game that I am currently loving.

 

[lolez2matt]

Last Boss Spoiler

Spoiler

So after getting to the second form of bunivelze or whatever is it written, I decided to do a New Game + file. I did al the principal missions but still can´t beat it so it was my only choice to get better. I think I have problems with the schematas and some magics that aren´t at the maxed levels. Well, it will help me to get the platinum.

 

[Neolith]

Wow that ending was something, final bhuni form had some awesome music

 

[Alvarez]

t feeling your assessment at all now, bro. But I'll need to play more in order to form a legitimate response to this scathing condemnation of a game that I am currently loving.

You shouldn't even have read my critique if you haven't finished the game yet. Finish the game and form your own opinion. Don't listen to anyone else's.

Last Boss Spoiler

Spoiler

So after getting to the second form of YIKES or whatever is it written, I decided to do a New Game + file. I did al the principal missions but still can´t beat it so it was my only choice to get better. I think I have problems with the schematas and some magics that aren´t at the maxed levels. Well, it will help me to get the platinum.

Grinding doesn't really help in LR. I suggest you reload your endgame save and put more time into the final boss, who will literally not die until you learn how to stagger him (staggering is not stat-based).

Pay attention to the Stagger Wave and know that, due to poor design, the game's tooltips are sometimes misleading and sometimes completely wrong. Observe abilities' effects for yourself. Do not rely on their descriptions.

 

[genbatzu]

By "last boss", what phase are you talking about exactly? The fourth (and final) phase, or can you not even beat his first forms?

You need to be using -ra spells, not -ga and not base spells. Get rid of Element too. Aerora and Thundara are the most effective magic stagger spells.

Try this:

Schema 1: Aerora
Schema 2: Thundara
Schema 3: Beat Down

2 Aerora > 2 Thundara > Beat Down > Repeat

You want to avoid using too many of the same spells in a row. Because of the game's poor design, Lightning's fancy backflips and long animations are very bad and will prevent you from staggering enemies.

Alternatively, this works just as well:

Schema 1: Beat Down
Schema 2: Aerora
Schema 3: Artemis' Arrows (Soldier of Peace Schemata + Heavy Slash)

these long animations are actually "finisher moves" after a combo and do both, more damage and increase stagger. sometimes they are usefull. so I don't think it's poor design, since it works as intended

I for myself found these finisher moves only usefull if I had equipped the items where the finishing moves were increased by +1 (and HP -66%), otherwise just switched between 2 spells. (was called thamasas something, dunno the english name)

Also if you can't beat the last boss, get 5 phoenix downs and 5 ethers / top ethers and choronostasis him to death. combine that with artemis arrow and it's a very easy fight, even on normal difficult and first playthrough

 

[Alvarez]

these long animations are actually "finisher moves" after a combo and do both, more damage and increase stagger. sometimes they are usefull. so I don't think it's poor design,

It being poor design is a mathematical certainty due to the way Stagger increases damage received. The increased damage that the longer animations do does not even begin to compare to the damage that can be done to a Staggered target, nor does it outweigh the potential damage of an ATB Charge. Not only is every finishing move in the game a damage per second loss, but they also make you more vulnerable to enemy attacks and some of them create distance from your target, further decreasing damage per second and the Stagger Wave.

 

[genbatzu]

It being poor design is a mathematical certainty due to the way Stagger increases damage received. The increased damage that the longer animations do does not even begin to compare to the damage that can be done to a Staggered target, nor does it outweigh the potential damage of an ATB Charge. Not only is every finishing move in the game a damage per second loss, but they also make you more vulnerable to enemy attacks and some of them create distance from your target, further decreasing damage per second and the Stagger Wave.

I only used it for staggering an enemy, because I thought it's good, but I think the yellow wave, which indicates how "good" a stagger is might tricked me here.

I do agree that for damage its totally useless and beside the longer animations leaving you vulnerable for enemy attacks I just remembered another thing I noticed this weekend:
I got super excited about getting Ultima and Flare, because in other FF's these 2 spells are the ultimate spells one can aqquire. But in LR... they are useless. I used Ultima several times and couldn't even see damage numbers on the screen, it was kind of weird, the strongest spells do no damage and costs a lof of time. It felt like a self induced really long stun effect, so I never tried the 3 other "ultimate" spells (tornado, etc.)

 

[Alvarez]

I used Ultima several times and couldn't even see damage numbers on the screen, it was kind of weird, the strongest spells do no damage and costs a lof of time. It felt like a self induced really long stun effect, so I never tried the 3 other "ultimate" spells (tornado, etc.)

I believe that these abilities are bugged in some way, but Square-Enix has not commented on it yet. These are definitely examples of poor design/testing. I have talked to many people about Flare/Tornado/etc., but no one I know has figured out a way to use them effectively.

 

[SoraanTribal]

LR will definitely be a cult hit. A "dark horse" pick for many future favorite FF list threads

And yes, I'm enjoying the character and story beats a lot here. I like Lightning as this reborn angel figure .. The whole thing seems well written and I feel engaged with the plot (this is really saying something because I was disengaged from XIII and XIII-2)

There's a lot to like about LR imo (surprisingly so), but this is not one of them for me personally. If there's one thing that makes me roll my eyes nonstop and cringe while playing is the whole Lightning being the savior (she's treated like Jesus - not even exaggerating, that's basically her character role in this game). And every magical mcguffin somehow responds to her because... "god made it so because she's the savior because lightning is special" type of BS. I fully expect to hear the word "Savior" another 5,000 times before I finish the game and I dread it.

 

[jorgeton]

Finally beat the last boss this weekend. Tough bastard.

I think the cut scene before you fight him is so great. Gave me chills. The speech

Spoiler

Bhunivelze

gives is so awesome:

Spoiler

“Goddess-to-be-born. Bow thy head and open your heart to the benediction of God's Light. Drink in the light and cleanse your soul. Surrender to the radiance... Divine love eternal!”

Love the VA on that. And the reveal of what

Spoiler

GOD

looks like was done so well. Great design & cut scene direction.

Ending itself was OK. It was cute. Reminded me of FFIV's, or of every JRPG ever

Spoiler

Power of friendship. ACTIVATE!

.

Spoiler

it did feel a little Power Rangers-ish. But I did get some feels when the Eidolons popped up and helped take down god.

The FFXIII games are so fascinating to me. There is a palpable tension between some really forward thinking gameplay, a story that could've gone down as one of the all-time RPG greats with some rewriting and clarity, and a great cast that sometime gets saddled with ridiculous dialogue. It was a flawed trilogy with moments of brilliance, but I had a great time with all three games.

All in all, it gives me Hope (see what i did there?) for FFXV and the future of FF.

 

[SirNinja]

Finished this just a few days ago. Quite an intense game on "Easy". Or maybe I just suck at games like these. Either way, people weren't kidding when they say the finale was over-the-top. Though after saving two worlds in XIII and (attempting to) save all of time itself in XIII-2, I guess Lightning Returns didn't have much choice.

After starting a NG+ on Normal, I'm surprised how much better the game is when you already know where to go, when to go there, what to do, how to do it, and how long it'll take. Trying to figure everything out under a time limit was probably what turned a lot of people away from this game, and I can't say I blame them.

 

[TheJollyCorner]

I must be nuts. I'm really enjoying this game.

I mean, I don't mind admitting I had a good time with XIII and XIII-2, but I find myself constantly wanting to come back to Lightning's little God romp.



That said, Christ All Mighty some (many) of the textures in this game look terrible. Some remind me of the '3D' backgrounds from FFVIII's battles, for example. Holy shit.

 

[SoraanTribal]

I must be nuts. I'm really enjoying this game.

I mean, I don't mind admitting I had a good time with XIII and XIII-2, but I find myself constantly wanting to come back to Lightning's little God romp.

That said, Christ All Mighty some (many) of the textures in this game look terrible. Some remind me of the '3D' backgrounds from FFVIII's battles, for example. Holy shit.

I feel kind of the same. I had fun with XIII/XIII-2 despite their many many MANY problems (I will be the first person to list off all the issues I had with those games), and actually replayed them multiple times.

And I went into LR expecting to hate it. Prior to playing, I thought they had changed way too much. "Only Lightning? No other party members? WTF", "lol, dress up Lightning sim, so lame", "a fucking time limit- one of the things I hate the most about some games? I probably won't even get that shit at launch". And yet here I am now, enjoying it and looking forward to the next time I'm able to play. I'm working on a laptop right now for work, and just thinking about when I can finish and go home to play more LR.

I mean, LR is far from perfect, but it's still a fun experience. I do think some of the textures look like pre-alpha/PS2/etc textures, though... It's bizarre. You might look off in one direction and it looks quite nice sometimes. Then turn around and see a cook standing in front of a rack of meat that look like red blobs with almost no texture on them at all. It's just weird. Inconsistent.

 

[TheJollyCorner]

I feel kind of the same. I had fun with XIII/XIII-2 despite their many many MANY problems (I will be the first person to list off all the issues I had with those games), and actually replayed them multiple times.

And I went into LR expecting to hate it. Prior to playing, I thought they had changed way too much. "Only Lightning? No other party members? WTF", "lol, dress up Lightning sim, so lame", "a fucking time limit- one of the things I hate the most about some games? I probably won't even get that shit at launch". And yet here I am now, enjoying it and looking forward to the next time I'm able to play. I'm working on a laptop right now for work, and just thinking about when I can finish and go home to play more LR.

It's interesting. I feel like if they took the best elements of the three games and had them in a single game, that single game could be really fantastic.
Kitase needs to get his shit together, though. I'm saying that as a big fan of his work with this series.
His team shouldn't need three games to get basic design elements right. We can blame Toriyama all we want, but as the producer and head of his team Kitase needs to start cracking the whip a bit. Hopefully they have some serious discussions about team coordination prior to their next major FF production, because I can still see some of that FF magic buried in areas of each game in this 'trilogy'.

I mean, LR is far from perfect, but it's still a fun experience. I do think some of the textures look like pre-alpha/PS2/etc textures, though... It's bizarre. You might look off in one direction and it looks quite nice sometimes. Then turn around and see a cook standing in front of a rack of meat that look like red blobs with almost no texture on them at all. It's just weird. Inconsistent.

The lighting engine is really great, though. It classes things up quite a bit. Main character models are still pretty impressive, too- especially when you think the majority of them are (or at least seem) pretty much the same ones that were created over 4 years ago. NPCs are god-awful, though.

 

[RpgN]

It's interesting. I feel like if they took the best elements of the three games and had them in a single game, that single game could be really fantastic.
Kitase needs to get his shit together, though. I'm saying that as a big fan of his work with this series.
His team shouldn't need three games to get basic design elements right. We can blame Toriyama all we want, but as the producer and head of his team Kitase needs to start cracking the whip a bit. Hopefully they have some serious discussions about team coordination prior to their next major FF production, because I can still see some of that FF magic buried in areas of each game in this 'trilogy'.


The lighting engine is really great, though. It classes things up quite a bit. Main character models are still pretty impressive, too- especially when you think the majority of them are (or at least seem) pretty much the same ones that were created over 4 years ago. NPCs are god-awful, though.

Come to think of it, didn't they develop LR within one and half year? Considering the amount of time they were given and how usually they take years to finish FF games, it's kinda a miracle LR wasn't crap or broken.

That said, it's a shame they weren't given more time to polish the game. I can't help thinking that every time I play it, even though I'm enjoying myself. LR with FFXIII graphics and polish along with no time penalty would been close to perfection. Plus more monster variety, the ability to equip more than one adorns and a stats menu to see how many monsters you have slayed of every type and more (this extinct, common and rare is not precise enough).

 

[SoraanTribal]

It's interesting. I feel like if they took the best elements of the three games and had them in a single game, that single game could be really fantastic.
Kitase needs to get his shit together, though. I'm saying that as a big fan of his work with this series.
His team shouldn't need three games to get basic design elements right. We can blame Toriyama all we want, but as the producer and head of his team Kitase needs to start cracking the whip a bit. Hopefully they have some serious discussions about team coordination prior to their next major FF production, because I can still see some of that FF magic buried in areas of each game in this 'trilogy'.

Yeah, I've said that before as well. If they had taken the best aspects of each XIII game and actually made a game from those, it would have been awesome and one of the best in the series. Instead, we get 3 highly flawed, but still entertaining games (imo, anyways). It's a shame. I also like Kitase's work in the series (like when he was the director), but I don't think he makes a very good producer. He should never have put Toriyama in charge of XIII.. at least in that exact role. Toriyama is fine as event director (his role in FFX) - he can make some cool cutscenes, but please keep him far away from the story/writing. And keep Watanabe away from the scripts as well, lol.

The lighting engine is really great, though. It classes things up quite a bit. Main character models are still pretty impressive, too- especially when you think the majority of them are (or at least seem) pretty much the same ones that were created over 4 years ago. NPCs are god-awful, though.

Yeah, I actually do like the lighting engine they have in LR most of the time. There's some good sights to see depending on the time of day. I especially like the forest area in Wildlands at night time - all the moogles flying around with all the pretty lights glowing everywhere. Quite beautiful. I do agree about the character models - most of the main cast look pretty great which is actually part of what makes the game look so inconsistent. You have this really detailed character model for Lightning, Lumina, etc standing next to NPCs from 2 generations ago (exaggerating..slightly). lol

 

[TheGrue]

I know this firsthand because I didn't use Chronostasis in my playthrough and I don't know anyone who actually ran out of time when playing the game--not a single person.[/B]

I haven't run out of time, but I've kind of been on the brink. I've been sitting with two days left for the last couple in-game days. I went and beat the Yusnaan boss on Day 8 to get another day, but I need to be sure I can get the Wildlands and Dead Dunes bosses done. I tried the Wildlands boss before the Yusnaan one and got my ass handed to me, so reloaded the save I made for Day 8 and used it to go get Yusnaan done, but I fininshed it at about 5:45 AM, so almost ran out of time and would have had to push it to the next day. Chronostasis was the only thing that saved me there, but using that EP means no EP for Army of One.


I've been feeling the pressure of the time.

 

[MCD]

You know what really pissed me off? The lack of story quests.

Game would be better with more Snowe or Noel or Hope quests instead of fetching random shit to NPCs.

 

[brandonh83]

You know what really pissed me off? The lack of story quests.

Game would be better with more Snow or Noel or Hope quests instead of fetching random shit to NPCs.

Biggest problem with the game by far. Wish the quests felt more relevant. The story makes the excuse that it's meant to save souls or whatever, but that doesn't make it good.

 

[MCD]

Biggest problem with the game by far. Wish the quests felt more relevant. The story makes the excuse that it's meant to save souls or whatever, but that doesn't make it good.

Yeah. Appreciated how every NPC is voiced. That's level of dedication hopefully carries to next gen.

 

[SoraanTribal]

You know what really pissed me off? The lack of story quests.

Game would be better with more Snowe or Noel or Hope quests instead of fetching random shit to NPCs.

100% agreed. It felt like the main story quests were over FAR too quickly, and while some of the sidequests can be interesting (in terms of their personal stories), I didn't care about them that much. And most of the main story quests only had one or two small cutscenes dealing with the characters I was "saving" and the rest was doing random stuff like finding numbers on walls or dressing up as an actress. I preferred how they did

Spoiler

Fang's

main story quest because at least she was with you for a large portion of it.

 

[Violence Jack]

The damn fetch quests is the biggest problem for me in this game. Now that I know that I'm really not running out of as much time as I thought, I don't have the time limits as a negative anymore. Had they just let the monsters you battle give Exp, Gil, items, and EP this would be so much better. But it doesn't completely suck ass like I thought it would.

Then again, I'm only halfway through the Wildlands quest.

 

[Nowhere Man]

You know what really pissed me off? The lack of story quests.

Game would be better with more Snowe or Noel or Hope quests instead of fetching random shit to NPCs.

I definitely agree, they're taking the wrong queues from western RPGs

Spoiler

(which is to say taking any queues from WRPGs)

. A 10:1 ratio of sidequests to story quests is shit when WRPGs do it and it's lame here too. The context of doing people's laundry to put their minds at ease thereby saving their souls helps the sidequest focus make more sense, but it's still dumb leaves the story feeling small or half baked.

 

[SoraanTribal]

Need some shield advice.

For my physical/magical stagger/damage dealers, is it best to have a shield that gives like +20 ATB recovery even if it has 0 defense (Ghostly Bloom is the name of the shield, I think)? Like I just bought a shield from the Research village in wildlands that has +20 ATB Recovery, but 0 shield defense or whatever. Is that a good shield to have on my damage dealers? And a better defense shield on my main tanky character (Sacred Knight in this case)? My Yuna is still using the Summoner's Shield because it adds +200 magic which is really nice. Not sure if that's worth switching out for anything. I also am still using the Goddess shield which adds +100 STR, +100 MAG, and 100 Guard Defense - is that still worth using or is the +20 ATB better overall?

---

Also, are there any certain monsters I should try to extinct for their special drops? I know they are all in the

Spoiler

ultimate dungeon

, but anything I can get prior to doing that place might help.

 

[Jisgsaw]

Need some shield advice.

For my physical/magical stagger/damage dealers, is it best to have a shield that gives like +20 ATB recovery even if it has 0 defense (Ghostly Bloom is the name of the shield, I think)? Like I just bought a shield from the Research village in wildlands that has +20 ATB Recovery, but 0 shield defense or whatever. Is that a good shield to have on my damage dealers? And a better defense shield on my main tanky character (Sacred Knight in this case)? My Yuna is still using the Summoner's Shield because it adds +200 magic which is really nice. Not sure if that's worth switching out for anything. I also am still using the Goddess shield which adds +100 STR, +100 MAG, and 100 Guard Defense - is that still worth using or is the +20 ATB better overall?

I usually play the classical SAB-RAV-COM (or SAB-RAV-RAV).
In this setup, I took my SAB to be my guarding line. Debuffs only need to be put so often, so there's no harm to give him a good defence and less ATB Speed.

For the two others on the other hand, you'll want to max their speed (especially with Soldier of Peace).

Also, are there any certain monsters I should try to extinct for their special drops? I know they are all in the

Spoiler

ultimate dungeon

, but anything I can get prior to doing that place might help.

Definitively do the Reavers. That weapon drop is really awesome (for the first playthrough at least, don't know how upgraded Weapons compare).
Only problem if you extinct species too soon: you losse their upgraded ability drops after day 7 and day 10.

 

[SoraanTribal]

I usually play the classical SAB-RAV-COM (or SAB-RAV-RAV).
In this setup, I took my SAB to be my guarding line. Debuffs only need to be put so often, so there's no harm to give him a good defence and less ATB Speed.

For the two others on the other hand, you'll want to max their speed (especially with Soldier of Peace).

Yeah, I'm thinking about turning my Sacred Knight into my SAB with good defense (so my Tank/SAB combo). Then have either Soldier of Peace or Cloud as my other stagger/Arrows/Slayer spammer with Yuna or another mage garb as my RAV. Thanks for the advice about the shields.

Definitively do the Reavers. That weapon drop is really awesome (for the first playthrough at least, don't know how upgraded Weapons compare).
Only problem if you extinct species too soon: you losse their upgraded ability drops after day 7 and day 10.

Yeah, I've been trying to wait to extinct most enemies until I get to Day 10 for that reason, but I've already accidentally made one go extinct... it's those stupid tree enemies that summon more and more in the Wildlands, lol.

 

[Adaren]

I started using Evade because the Heartstealer garb is just so swag. I wish I had used it more earlier...when Lightning Evades an attack and remarks "Easy" in that confident tone, I get total Bayonetta vibes.

Also, I'm finding it significantly easier to get Just Attacks with the Dual Blade weapons. My theory is that this is because it hits twice, so you have two windows in which to input the Just Attack. Are other people having the same experience?

It's made Light Slash + Heavy Slash + Gagnrad my new favorite thing.

Lightning Returns is mediocre, though it's full of smoke and mirrors that could lead some to believe otherwise.

A lot of people (myself included) are finding it to be great fun. Not the highest production values the gaming industry has ever seen, but the experience of the player is what counts in the end. It's still understandable if you didn't enjoy it, but that doesn't mean it's objectively mediocre (whatever that means).

You want to avoid using too many of the same spells in a row. Because of the game's poor design, Lightning's fancy backflips and long animations are very bad and will prevent you from staggering enemies.

There are times when cancelling a Finale can be advantageous, but Staggering with -ra spells definitely isn't one of them. The Piggyback LR guide (which is awesome and loaded with the number-crunching goodness I want to see from these guides) claims that -ra spells have:

• 50% more damage
• 100% more Stagger Power
• 200% more Stagger Time

Unless you're absolutely rolling in ATB and going purely for damage, the -ra spell Finales are almost certainly worth it.

When I was following the LR pre-release media, I was worried that Finales wouldn't be strong enough, and we would have to cancel them to promote efficiency over style. This game, however, exceeds my expectations in that regard: there are times when you do want to cancel Finales, but the majority of the time you actually want to complete your combo and get off a Finale. In my experience, LR simultaneously has a lot of depth to its combat while also letting you play in an intuitive way.

I believe that these abilities are bugged in some way, but Square-Enix has not commented on it yet. These are definitely examples of poor design/testing. I have talked to many people about Flare/Tornado/etc., but no one I know has figured out a way to use them effectively.

I haven't gotten these spells yet, but I'm under the impression that they scale with how low your health is, making them situationally extremely powerful.

 

[jersoc]

Splendid admiral
L'atuomne
Equilibrium+

Keep him slowed and poisoned if you can and alternate -ra spells to stagger.

did you just load up on +spell and atb then?

 

[sonto340]

By "last boss", what phase are you talking about exactly? The fourth (and final) phase, or can you not even beat his first forms?

You need to be using -ra spells, not -ga and not base spells. Get rid of Element too. Aerora and Thundara are the most effective magic stagger spells.

Try this:

Schema 1: Aerora
Schema 2: Thundara
Schema 3: Beat Down

2 Aerora > 2 Thundara > Beat Down > Repeat

You want to avoid using too many of the same spells in a row. Because of the game's poor design, Lightning's fancy backflips and long animations are very bad and will prevent you from staggering enemies.

Alternatively, this works just as well:

Schema 1: Beat Down
Schema 2: Aerora
Schema 3: Artemis' Arrows (Soldier of Peace Schemata + Heavy Slash)

I had made it to the last form once.
I beat it.earlier today
I ended up using

Spoiler

Caius' Sword on a class with Aerora and Fire for the 75% stagger boost. It worked out well.

Schema 1: Thundara and Blizard
Schema 2: Aerora and Fire
Schema 3: Imperil and Element.
I had misjudged how useful imperil could be. It made stagger climb even faster.
Speaking of. I reeeeally wish there was a stagger gauge in this game instead of the vague line wiggle. I can never tell if an enemy has a high stagger point or if I'm just bad at what I'm supposed to be doing.
Anyway, Last Cutscenes Spoilers and Questions:

Spoiler

So Lumina was the personification of everything Lightning thought made her weak? With some Chaos 'death of the godess' shenanigans mixed in?
I was excited for a dark kind of bittersweet ending before Lumina hugs the stick out of Lightning's ass. Then it just kinda became exactly what I thought.
I literally laughed out loud when Noel just had an Eidolon out of nowhere at the end.
Glad to see the super mega power of friendship came out on top or whatever.
The very end with Caius and Noel made me wish we had gotten a 13-3 with a redemption story of Noel instead of... Whatever i just played 35 hours of.

Edit:

There are times when cancelling a Finale can be advantageous, but Staggering with -ra spells definitely isn't one of them. The Piggyback LR guide (which is awesome and loaded with the number-crunching goodness I want to see from these guides) claims that -ra spells have:

• 50% more damage
• 100% more Stagger Power
• 200% more Stagger Time

Unless you're absolutely rolling in ATB and going purely for damage, the -ra spell Finales are almost certainly worth it.

Son of a BITCH. I wish the game had mentioned this ever! I spent a large part of this game guard canceling to avoid wasting time on finales, thinking it would help build stagger faster. No wonder I had trouble staggerig almost everything /: looks like NG+ will be interesting.

 

[Alvarez]

A lot of people (myself included) are finding it to be great fun. Not the highest production values the gaming industry has ever seen, but the experience of the player is what counts in the end.

I disagree fundamentally; I've found LR fun, but there is no game in the world that I have not been able to find fun because every human on earth is capable of synthesizing fun (Google it, it's scientifically documented). But my personal experience has nothing to do with whether I would recommend this game to others. I wouldn't--and I wouldn't want to meet the person who would.

The Piggyback LR guide

is wrong.

but I'm under the impression that they scale with how low your health is, making them situationally extremely powerful.

They do scale, and at 1 HP, the elemental ultimates do about as much damage as a base Fire versus Fire-vulnerable targets.

 

[Alvarez]

Anyway, Last Cutscenes Spoilers and Questions:

Spoiler

Lumina is the naive childhood Lightning. Lightning set that part of herself aside early on because she thought it would make her "stronger", more independent, and more capable of caring for Serah. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compartmentalization_(psychology)

Noel is the best character in FNC, and the unusual (for FNC) quality of his dialogue and character are the result of Yusuke Naora's writing (as opposed to Toriyama's).

 

[Adaren]

The Piggyback LR guide

is wrong.

Any evidence for this? I should mention that the guide has hard numbers for all of these abilities as well as enemy stagger value and an explanation of how the decay system works under the hood. The percentages I listed were based off of the concrete numbers.

These numbers also align with my experience using Finales and Staggering, but I'm sure you'll say the same about your gameplay experience.

 

[Shinta]

Any evidence for this? I should mention that the guide has hard numbers for all of these abilities as well as enemy stagger value and an explanation of how the decay system works under the hood. The percentages I listed were based off of the concrete numbers.

These numbers also align with my experience using Finales and Staggering, but I'm sure you'll say the same about your gameplay experience.

I think they got all their numbers directly from design documents provided by the development team.

 

[HawthorneKitty]

I've never found finales being a problem; if the recovery animation for after is too long, defend to quicken it up a bit.

 

[Alvarez]

Any evidence for this?

Yeah: Do you have a webcam or camera? Take a photo of the page that lists the stats of Flare for me, or just tell us what the guide says about Flare.

 

[MissDeviling]

Didn't know about the bonuses to combo finishers till midway through the game. I still think they should have sped up the animation though; it just really kills the pacing of battles. I wonder if the long animations are artificial ways of letting your garbs' ATB bars load. It would definitely explain why I had so much trouble keeping healthy amounts of ATB in long battles, since I cancelled my combos almost every time.

 

[CrimsonCrescendo]

Noel is the best character in FNC, and the unusual (for FNC) quality of his dialogue and character are the result of Yusuke Naora's writing (as opposed to Toriyama's).

And how do you know this?

 

[Alvarez]

I've never found finales being a problem; if the recovery animation for after is too long, defend to quicken it up a bit.

These desperate defenses of combo finales confuse me. I'll copy and paste what I said before:

The increased damage that the longer animations do does not even begin to compare to the damage that can be done to a Staggered target, nor does it outweigh the potential damage of an ATB Charge. Not only is every finishing move in the game a damage per second loss, but they also make you more vulnerable to enemy attacks and some of them create distance from your target, further decreasing damage per second and the Stagger Wave.

The Stagger Wave bonus of finales is moot because the length of the animation is outweighed by the potential stagger that is gained by skipping the finale animation. While guarding can shorten animations, the required ATB cost (and/or the mere presence of Light Guard in one's schemata) makes it not as effective as simply foregoing the finale.

Certainly, some finales are useful in extremely specific scenarios, but the reality is that they are not nearly as useful as they were intended to be, as is suggested by the various tutorials and finale-centered accessories throughout the game. No amount of "but finales are great if you're wearing this accessory and this schemata and you're on this boss and he's already staggered and he's currently vulnerable to fire and you're only using ranged magic spells and" justification is going to save LR's combo finale, I'm afraid.

 

[Alvarez]

And how do you know this?

We're dating.

 

[HawthorneKitty]

Do I sound desperate? You must sound anal or something.
It confuses you that something so miniscule at the end of things can be defended? Not everyone has to play like you do.

 

[Alvarez]

Do I sound desperate? You must sound anal or something.

No, not you specifically--it's just that everyone here has been so quick to throw themselves to the combo finale's defense.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying a twirl and some slightly bigger numbers. There's also no enemy in the game that cannot be beaten while using finale combos. But from a mechanically critical standpoint--and as a game designer, that's where I'm always standing--the combo finale fails because it's supposed to be a boon and it is typically not.

 

[Lunafreya]

I absolutely love this game and the XIII trilogy as a whole, FF games never fail me! I've gotten every hard trophy out of the way, now is just clean up and then plat woo!

 

[HeelPower]

Noel is the best character in FNC, and the unusual (for FNC) quality of his dialogue and character are the result of Yusuke Naora's writing (as opposed to Toriyama's).

Noel is a pretty crappy ,predictable shonen anime character.

How can you possibly say he is better than someone like sazh or even lightning ?

End of the world blah blah , Yeul Blah Blah...

 

[Alvarez]

How can you possibly say he [Noel] is better than someone like sazh

Well, you see, Sazh is unfortunately relegated to a comic relief role and virtually all of his time in FNC is spent attempting to revive his--

or even lightning ?

Nevermind. I'm going to go over there now. Goodbye.

 

[HeelPower]

Nevermind. I'm going to go over there now. Goodbye.

Guess it was wrong attempting to have a half decent discussion with someone who thinks Noel is great.

 

[SoraanTribal]

I just think Noel is a lot more likable than some of the other XIII characters.

He's not some annoyingly brutal/violent person with little to no emotions (Lightning - I don't dislike her really, but she's nothing special to me). Lightning just kind of drones on sometimes in a monotone voice which doesn't help.

He's not Mr. Hero Snow who is possibly the worst character in the XIII series. He wasn't as annoying in LR at least. Good VA at least.

I like Fang, Vanille, and Sazh personally. Hope is... I actually kind of liked him in XIII/XIII-2, but he's starting to annoy me in LR with all his calls.

Serah is kind of ditzy, but in a funny way sometimes. I actually quite liked the Noel + Serah + Caius + Yeul combo of FFXIII-2 which is part of the reason why I liked that game. Just for their story (even if it was a bit silly at times). Noel is likable because 1) he's not annoying, 2) he's not stupid 3) had an interesting back-story, 4) has emotions and shows them at the right times, and 5) he had a good VA.