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[Chettlar]

Penello redeemed?

I know you're joking but to a very slight roundabout way sort of yes no. Mantle showed us some amazing things you can do with hardware, and if D3D12 can do similar, then oh my goodness. It still doesn't make the One as good as the PS4, but it helps close the gap even more, if only slightly.

So yesnokindanotreally.

 

[azhar]

It seems like it's always people who don't own an xb1 that bring up that misterxmedia site... if people on GAF started citing it as gospel I guess I would understand, but that doesn't seem to be the case. So why bring that moron into the discussion? It seems like it's only brought up in order to derail news of anything that could potentially improve the xb1. It's a lazy way to discredit something... by assuming that everyone talking about potential DirectX benefits lives in the same dream world that misterxmedia does.

 

[Qassim]

So if DX12 adds similar tech like Mantle then we need to buy DX12 cards to get to use that right?

I'm not sure how sensible it'd be for DirectX to start implementing specific optimisations for different GPU architectures.

DirectX exists to be a generic API to write to - the GPU vendors optimise themselves against that, but it of course being a generic API there's only so far you can go.

Slightly OT:
Mantle isn't anything new, we had stuff like Mantle a decade ago and all it really did was contribute to a fragmented and messy market. Widespread adoption of generic APIs like DirectX and OpenGL happened for a reason - but who knows, maybe AMD can make Mantle enticing to everyone and get NVIDIA, Intel and anyone and everyone else contributing to it - but I suspect that won't happen.

 

[Chettlar]

Brains. Over. Bronze.

*mic drop, walks out*

Laughed out loud at this part.

Hopefully they will show some new games with this announcement.

Halo of some kind or Quantum Break. Just watch.

 

[Gestault]

So much talk of misterxmedia and reddit. What's the point? Isn't that why we post here?

I think in many cases, the people who focus on things like that are just looking for low hanging fruit to chortle about rather than having a meaningful part in the conversation. It's pretty tacky, but I do my best to ignore it.

 

[Deadpool_X]

Laughed out loud at this part.

Really though, for all intensive purposes, though, he's right...

 

[Iced_Eagle]

Sooooo, it's a good thing I've been waiting to get a new card?

Also, is it likely that the cards from AMD and nVidia coming this year (they are, aren't they?) will support DX12?

Well, I don't know about a "good thing" you've waited. My philosophy with buying hardware is buy it when you need it, not based on things that may come at some unknown time in the future.

There will certainly be new cards from AMD/Nvidia this year as there always is. As for whether or not they fully support DX12 remains to be seen though. By this point, both Nvidia and AMD are well aware of DX12 and are likely working on support already. My assumption is that yes, the new generation of cards from both of them will support DX12. However, will they support every new feature in DX12? We'll have to wait for announcements to find that out.

I'm not sure how sensible it'd be for DirectX to start implementing specific optimisations for different GPU architectures.

DirectX exists to be a generic API to write to - the GPU vendors optimise themselves against that, but it of course being a generic API there's only so far you can go.

Slightly OT:
Mantle isn't anything new, we had stuff like Mantle a decade ago and all it really did was contribute to a fragmented and messy market. Widespread adoption of generic APIs like DirectX and OpenGL happened for a reason - but who knows, maybe AMD can make Mantle enticing to everyone and get NVIDIA, Intel and anyone and everyone else contributing to it - but I suspect that won't happen.

Mantle does not expose ALL of the details of the hardware. There is still a small layer of abstraction if you read AMD presentations and talks about it. If it would expose all of the fine-grained detail it would essentially screw them over in the long run as they either wouldn't be able to innovate the GPU architecture in any major way, or would have separate incompatible Mantle implementations per architecture. So, there is still some abstraction, and the question is, can DirectX do this in such a way that is vendor-agnostic? It would be a pretty big engineering challenge, but it's not impossible. The one benefit they have is that DirectX is now inside of the Windows OS team, thus I'm assuming they will change the Windows Display Driver Model to allow hardware to report to the system/driver/game lower level information than is currently possible on Windows. Most DirectX releases change the driver model anyway, which is why you typically have to upgrade Windows to support it (it's incredibly difficult to backport driver/kernel changes -- for Xbox, it's also assumed that OS updates are free for the life of the device).

Mantle was always talking about how Mantle isn't necessarily exclusive to AMD and that they would love if Nvidia would implement it, so I don't see why the DirectX team couldn't be doing something similar but make it non-vendor specific like the current version of Mantle is.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

Can we please keep that Reddit shit out of this thread? I'd like to learn something without screening through all of that crap

 

[gruenel]

Can we please keep that Reddit shit out of this thread? I'd like to learn something without screening through all of that crap

Not much to learn considering we know jack shit about DX12.

You'll have to wait until March 20th for real info when it's actually unveiled.

 

[illustri0us]

I'm not sure how sensible it'd be for DirectX to start implementing specific optimisations for different GPU architectures.

DirectX exists to be a generic API to write to - the GPU vendors optimise themselves against that, but it of course being a generic API there's only so far you can go.

Slightly OT:
Mantle isn't anything new, we had stuff like Mantle a decade ago and all it really did was contribute to a fragmented and messy market. Widespread adoption of generic APIs like DirectX and OpenGL happened for a reason - but who knows, maybe AMD can make Mantle enticing to everyone and get NVIDIA, Intel and anyone and everyone else contributing to it - but I suspect that won't happen.

I think mantle will be incorporated in dx12... Amd claimed xbone gpu was 3 billion R and d cost or something... That amount is no joke

 

[Banfield]

Really though, for all intensive purposes, though, he's right...

http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/intensive.html

Also, not sure how he is right. Sony had a more mature SDK out of the gate and looking at the state of the Xbox at launch, I just don't buy that Microsoft has a better grasp of the software end.

 

[Qassim]

I know you're joking but to a very slight roundabout way sort of yes no. Mantle showed us some amazing things you can do with hardware, and if D3D12 can do similar, then oh my goodness. It still doesn't make the One as good as the PS4, but it helps close the gap even more, if only slightly.

So yesnokindanotreally.

I don't really get bringing Mantle into this. Mantle brings improvements to PC because of the layers of abstraction that come into play on PC - consoles don't have that.

Microsoft wouldn't have developed the Xbox One on generic APIs like a PC. There'd be no reason to, and really, they wouldn't be getting what they are getting out of the hardware if they were. The Xbox One isn't under performing - it just has weaker hardware than the PS4.

I think mantle will be incorporated in dx12... Amd claimed xbone gpu was 3 billion R and d cost or something... That amount is no joke

I mean, I don't know what to say to that. It doesn't make any sense, but if you say so..

 

[gruenel]

I think mantle will be incorporated in dx12... Amd claimed xbone gpu was 3 billion R and d cost or something... That's no joke

Wrong, the project was valued at 3 billion, huge difference.

 

[Chettlar]

Really though, for all intensive purposes, though, he's right...

Intensive.... Intensive.

Well I guess the purposes are sort of "Intensive"....

Well, I don't know about a "good thing" you've waited. My philosophy with buying hardware is buy it when you need it, not based on things that may come at some unknown time in the future.

Well sure.

Just that it sucks when you get something and then something new comes out the very next day or whatever. I'm surviving on this 460 of mine for now. Was waiting for RAM amounts to get up there (more in the 6GB range, since I'm very much about image quality as far as AA and res goes). Good news that it seems both will hit about around-ish the same time. Maybe.

There will certainly be new cards from AMD/Nvidia this year as there always is. As for whether or not they fully support DX12 remains to be seen though. By this point, both Nvidia and AMD are well aware of DX12 and are likely working on support already. My assumption is that yes, the new generation of cards from both of them will support DX12. However, will they support every new feature in DX12? We'll have to wait for announcements to find that out.

Obviously, not being in that industry, you wouldn't know. Just asking your opinion since you seem to know something about this.

 

[Derekloffin]

You probably could use DX12 with XB1, doesn't mean it has native support for such though so you'd basically be emulating the new bits.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

Lol, reading the reddit thread, that noodle guy.

Dude sees this as the second coming of jesus lol.

 

[illustri0us]

Wrong, the project was valued at 3 billion, huge difference.

Ok but that's still huge... Could've just gone off the shelf like sony, there's gotta be more to it somewhere

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Brains. Over. Bronze.

Really though, for all intensive purposes, though, he's right...

Did you do this on purpose?

 

[Deadpool_X]

http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/intensive.html

Also, not sure how he is right. Sony had a more mature SDK out of the gate and looking at the state of the Xbox at launch, I just don't buy that Microsoft has a better grasp of the software end.

It was a joke about people not understanding certain phrases. The guy said "brains over bronze", so I was joking with another commonly misspoken phrase. Did you not actually see the fact that I typed "for all intensive purposes"?

 

[Metalingus5150]

Ok but that's still huge... Could've just gone off the shelf like sony, there's gotta be more to it somewhere

Do you really think Sony just slapped together a few parts from "off the shelf"?

 

[Qassim]

 

[Pelydr]

I know you're joking but to a very slight roundabout way sort of yes no. Mantle showed us some amazing things you can do with hardware, and if D3D12 can do similar, then oh my goodness. It still doesn't make the One as good as the PS4, but it helps close the gap even more, if only slightly.

So yesnokindanotreally.

Stop. Penello was an asshole who came on here telling lies. Nothing will make the X1 even close to the PS4. It was all bullshit by MS and their cronies like Albert. D12 changes nothing.

 

[Ricerocket]

Ok but that's still huge... Could've just gone off the shelf like sony, there's gotta be more to it somewhere

Like... dgpu? They've already gone over the APU at hotchips.

 

[Banfield]

It was a joke about people not understanding certain phrases. The guy said "brains over bronze", so I was joking with another commonly misspoken phrase. Did you not actually see the fact that I typed "for all intensive purposes"?

I did, that's why I linked the correct phrase. Sorry, I did misunderstand your point though.

 

[Chettlar]

You probably could use DX12 with XB1, doesn't mean it has native support for such though so you'd basically be emulating the new bits.

That's assuming they were developed separately from each other.

Remember, you have the same company working on two products in the same general business (graphics work) at the same time.

If they're developing these things concurrently, then why wouldn't they take steps to make sure the transition from whatever Xbone uses now to dx12 smooth as possible?

That's why I maintain it was likely designed with dx12 in mind, but as dx12 was not finished until a few months later, they had to ship it with dx11 or whatever.

I don't really get bringing Mantle into this. Mantle brings improvements to PC because of the layers of abstraction that come into play on PC - consoles don't have that.

Microsoft wouldn't have developed the Xbox One on generic APIs like a PC. There'd be no reason to, and really, they wouldn't be getting what they are getting out of the hardware if they were. The Xbox One isn't under performing - it just has weaker hardware than the PS4.

Should have clarified. Firstly I'm not super knowledgeable in this anyway.

But what I meant was the XBox one still has layers of code you're going through. Remember what Corinne Yu said when she went to Naughty Dog? "Yay coding to the medal" or something like that? Basically I'm wondering if dx12 can do a better job of thinning itself out and getting less in the way while still providing benefit superior to dx12

And water tessellation. Always water tessellation.

Stop. Penello was an asshole who came on here telling lies. Nothing will make the X1 even close to the PS4. It was all bullshit by MS and their cronies like Albert. D12 changes nothing.

It doesn't change nothing. It does indeed close the gap albeit a very small amount. Ask anyone here. I kind of asked Nirolak...a mod.

The problem is Penello seemed to imply there was near parody. There isn't, and dx12 won't change that. The gap is smaller, by an ever so small bit, but it is smaller.

And even then, I doubt this is what he was talking about, unless somehow MS suddenly magically blows our minds come the 20th.

 

[SPDIF]

http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/intensive.html

Also, not sure how he is right. Sony had a more mature SDK out of the gate and looking at the state of the Xbox at launch, I just don't buy that Microsoft has a better grasp of the software end.

He's almost certainly joking about the intensive thing. Anyway, it is generally accepted (and it's generally true) that MS > Sony and Sony > MS when it comes to software/hardware respectively.

 

[stryke]

Ok but that's still huge... Could've just gone off the shelf like sony, there's gotta be more to it somewhere

Don't worry, the engineers will remember where they put that dGPU someday.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

Ok but that's still huge... Could've just gone off the shelf like sony, there's gotta be more to it somewhere

It's not that huge. If each SoC costs $100 bucks, with let's say 4-5 million consoles shipped to retail, you are already looking at half a billion in just 4 months.

 

[IcyRhythms]

Doesn't anyone feel like(I mean even just a little bit)

If the Xbox One has had "secret sauce" in DX12, wouldn't this have been a selling point for the hardcore/tech heads? Why wouldn't MS have mentioned this from the beginning?

Am I really to believe they didn't want to mention how the Xbox One is much better than the PS4 because MS wanted to wait until they were ready to talk about DX12 in full?

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

Doesn't anyone feel like(I mean even just a little bit)

If the Xbox One has had "secret sauce" in DX12, wouldn't this have been a selling point for the hardcore/tech heads? Why wouldn't MS have mentioned this from the beginning?

Am I really to believe they didn't want to mention how the Xbox One is much better than the PS4 because MS wanted to wait until they were ready to talk about DX12 in full?

That's the belief of some real diehards.

Though you would have to completely ignore everything microsoft has said for nearly a year and be quite delusional.

 

[Deadpool_X]

I did, that's why I linked the correct phrase. Sorry, I did misunderstand your point though.

Lol...no worries. C-c-c-c-c-comboooo Breakerrrrr!!!

 

[Fangrim]

Will I need a Gold membership to utilize DX12?

OT:
IIRC (don't have a link on hand), the DirectX in the 360 is not the same as the PC version. The APIs used in consoles already allows more "coding to the metal" than their PC equivalent, so I'm not too sure how much DX12 will improve the Xbox One.

 

[Banfield]

He's almost certainly joking about the intensive thing. Anyway, it is generally accepted (and it's generally true) that MS > Sony and Sony > MS when it comes to software/hardware respectively.

It probably should not be generally accepted. I think both have strengths in both areas and clear weaknesses in both areas. I have seen some seriously crappy Sony hardware, and some terrible Microsoft software. And a lot of times when Microsoft enters a new market, it's pretty clear they sometimes just phone it in, and unleash marketing teams with huge budgets to fill the gaps. Sony on the other hand has released a lot of terrible phones and tablets, so they aren't infallible in hardware at all. In the case of this generation of consoles, what we have to go by is what was released, and it seems initially, Sony has edged Microsoft in both areas, although functionality wise, I think both are pretty bare bones.

 

[illustri0us]

Like... dgpu? They've already gone over the APU at hotchips.

maybe just the way the move engines work with esram or something, it seems very exotic, they might be onto something

 

[Chettlar]

Will I need a Gold membership to utilize DX12?

The humor of this has faded long ago. I can't find it funny anymore and it gets more annoying than anything.

OT:
IIRC (don't have a link on hand), the DirectX in the 360 is not the same as the PC version. The APIs used in consoles already allows more "coding to the metal" than their PC equivalent, so I'm not too sure how much DX12 will improve the Xbox One.

The 360 had it's on DirectX yes, but it was based of the same thing as DX9 (and later some featuresfrom DX10).

And yes DX12 will improve somethings on Xbox One. Otherwise, why would they bother putting it on? They're even announcing it at GDC, so they're obviously trying to sell it to game developers. They obviously need a selling point for that.

 

[Portugeezer]

However it would still be on Xbox One specs.

 

[IcyRhythms]

However it would still be on Xbox One specs.

Should have been the first response lol

 

[-COOLIO-]

Really though, for all intensive purposes, though, he's right...

thread derailed.

 

[SPDIF]

It probably should not be generally accepted. I think both have strengths in both areas and clear weaknesses in both areas. I have seen some seriously crappy Sony hardware, and some terrible Microsoft software. And a lot of times when Microsoft enters a new market, it's pretty clear they sometimes just phone it in, and unleash marketing teams with huge budgets to fill the gaps. Sony on the other hand has released a lot of terrible phones and tablets, so they aren't infallible in hardware at all. In the case of this generation of consoles, what we have to go by is what was released, and it seems initially, Sony has edged Microsoft in both areas, although functionality wise, I think both are pretty bare bones.

Well if we're talking about the OS side of things I disagree. Especially after the recent XB1 OS update. Things like instant game resuming still aren't available on the PS4. But with that said, I do agree with your last point.

 

[IN&OUT]

I think mantle will be incorporated in dx12... Amd claimed xbone gpu was 3 billion R and d cost or something... That amount is no joke

I hate to say that but Xbone gpu is a joke, 3 billion dollar just makes it a bigger joke!

 

[stryke]

Really though, for all intensive purposes, though, he's right...

"intensive purposes"...?

 

[KidBeta]

The humor of this has faded long ago. I can't find it funny anymore and it gets more annoying than anything.



The 360 had it's on DirectX yes, but it was based of the same thing as DX9 (and later some featuresfrom DX10).

And yes DX12 will improve somethings on Xbox One. Otherwise, why would they bother putting it on? They're even announcing it at GDC, so they're obviously trying to sell it to game developers. They obviously need a selling point for that.

Its doubtful to improve much on the GPU performance side of things because the XB1 DX11.x API should already be exposing all of the GPU hardware functionality from the get go. It may improve some API side things (multithreading, memory usage, CPU usage, etc) . In this case it would make sense to port it to the XB1 not only for the perf advantage but also so developers can use one environment/api/sdk to code for the XB1 and the PC

 

[IcyRhythms]

lmfao

 

[Ricerocket]

The humor of this has faded long ago. I can't find it funny anymore and it gets more annoying than anything.



The 360 had it's on DirectX yes, but it was based of the same thing as DX9 (and later some featuresfrom DX10).

And yes DX12 will improve somethings on Xbox One. Otherwise, why would they bother putting it on? They're even announcing it at GDC, so they're obviously trying to sell it to game developers. They obviously need a selling point for that.

X1 would have improved on it's own and will always be better than DX12 because it's built for that specific hardware. The only thing I can see as a bonus from DX12 is that it'll put PC and X1 games closer and easier to port by bringing some features from X1 and plopping it into DX12.

 

[Fangrim]

The humor of this has faded long ago. I can't find it funny anymore and it gets more annoying than anything.

The 360 had it's on DirectX yes, but it was based of the same thing as DX9 (and later some featuresfrom DX10).

And yes DX12 will improve somethings on Xbox One. Otherwise, why would they bother putting it on? They're even announcing it at GDC, so they're obviously trying to sell it to game developers. They obviously need a selling point for that.

With all respect:
The humor of pointing out that something has faded long ago, faded long ago. If you get annoyed by overused memes, you shouldn't be on GAF.

Banderas.gif anyone?

OT:
I know that DX12 will improve some things (it is, after all, New and Improved™), but I don't see it as the Second Coming. As I mentioned before, console APIs already allow the programmers to get "closer to the metal", and this feature is one of Microsofts selling points for DX12.

It'll be a big deal for PC's, no doubt in my mind of that, but I don't think it'll have that much of an impact on consoles.

 

[Chettlar]

With all respect:
The humor of pointing out that something has faded long ago, faded long ago. If you get annoyed by overused memes, you shouldn't be on GAF.

Banderas.gif anyone?

Clever things never lose it. Things like that that have only existed for a year or less are forced and unfunny. There's a clear difference. Banderas.gif is hilarious because it's classic. You're joke is not classic.

Here's a hint based on things I've noticed. The more negetive, the quicker it loses the funniness and becomes annoying. It's true for anything; not just Console Warz™.

OT:
I know that DX12 will improve some things (it is, after all, New and Improved&#8482, but I don't see it as the Second Coming. As I mentioned before, console APIs already allow the programmers to get "closer to the metal", and this feature is one of Microsofts selling points for DX12.

It'll be a big deal for PC's, no doubt in my mind of that, but I don't think it'll have that much of an impact on consoles.

Of course not, but nobody (in this thread at least) are seriously saying that it will be the Second Coming. Let's disregard redditors for a moment, shall we?

There has to be some sort of difference. If devs can already code to the metal, then what can MS possibly have to sell dx12 on?

X1 would have improved on it's own and will always be better than DX12 because it's built for that specific hardware. The only thing I can see as a bonus from DX12 is that it'll put PC and X1 games closer and easier to port by bringing some features from X1 and plopping it into DX12.

But dx12 is being "plopped into X1." Not the other way around. MS has to have some sort of something to sell dx12 to developers with. Something. Otherwise, why would devs use it? It couldn't just be ease of access. You don't need an entirely new API for that.

Plus, remember what Corinne Yu said. Her statement of "Yay, coding to the metal" implies that she was previously not doing that while at 343, meaning, while working with the Xbox One, as they have to have been this last year.

 

[Jabba]

Ok but that's still huge... Could've just gone off the shelf like sony, there's gotta be more to it somewhere

Off the shelf huh? So what, Sony went to the, pComputer Parts Buffet and picked out dinner to be served to consumers, with or without out even adding some salt or pepper to the dining?

Or is it more likely that Sony was one of the chefs in the kitchen honing the recipie with other chefs, to provide a more elegant dining experience?

 

[scitek]

That's not how it works. DX is a library. A game will have to be built to take advantage of the library. Any existing games won't see any benefit. Only games that are built for DX12. However, based on the short descriptions where the one of the objectives for DirectX 12 is to eliminate overhead and allow devs to code closer to the metal, the DX12 version of a game will likely perform better than the DX11 version.

Another extremely common misconception I'll call out, DX12 games won't be "prettier" by virtue of using DX12. What DirectX allows is the ability for developers to create better looking games by adding features and increasing performance. It's not like if you port your game from DX11 to DX12 that it will instantly look better. An initial port of a DX11 game to DX12 is expected to look basically identical, and then you can work to add the new features allowed by the API. However, it may perform better right off the bat though (which gives you even more headroom for adding fancier VFX).



You typically have to buy a new GFX card that fully supports the new DX version anyways, so yes.

However, typically the latest generation of cards before the new generation of cards typically support a subset of DX12 features. However, I think it's not likely that current cards will be able to be supported by this new system DX setup to allow devs to code "closer to the metal". That sounds like there will be driver changes involved so cards can report more information about their hardware to the driver, DX12 and the game itself so it can take advantage of that.



Exactly... Just let the crazy ones be crazy and laugh at how the others are crazy. I tend to ignore them and move on.

I guess I meant could we see developers add DX12 to games if there ends up being a significant performance gain from DX11? What if it provides Mantle-like gains? It's not exclusive to a certain manufacturer (well, I know Mantle could be used by Nvidia, but we know it won't be). I assume they'd just have to build the game with DX12 in mind from the start.

 

[Chettlar]

Its doubtful to improve much on the GPU performance side of things because the XB1 DX11.x API should already be exposing all of the GPU hardware functionality from the get go. It may improve some API side things (multithreading, memory usage, CPU usage, etc) . In this case it would make sense to port it to the XB1 not only for the perf advantage but also so developers can use one environment/api/sdk to code for the XB1 and the PC

I guess then I would wonder why MS is suddenly concerned with helping out PC gaming. They didn't seem concerned about that last gen. Why would they now? Sure, they switched to x86 but both they and Sony said that that was for the developers. The fact that PC games also use x86 had nothing to do with the decision directly.

So why do they suddenly care? Wouldn't they want to discourage PC gaming? (I mean, I would think no, but since everything MS does lately seem like a war on PC, this seems like a random step in the opposite direction if you look at it from that stand point.

 

[Heretic]

So are they going to keep their underpowered console in the graphics race by manipulating the software side of things? Gross, if so.

Lol this is such a stupid comment.








E3 should be really fun this year!