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[Joe]

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/09/22/news_6108247.html

"Microsoft is already working with major hardware manufacturers such as Nvidia, ATI, and Intel (along with OEM manufacturers) to create pre-packaged PCs with varying levels of mid-range to high-end hardware, with appropriately varying price points. Under such a plan, pre-packaged PCs with certain processor speeds, amounts of RAM, and certain types of video card would be given a simple classification or "level."

"Lester went on to explain other features that Microsoft's Games for Windows group wishes to improve or simply streamline out of existence. One example was the conventional game installation system that requires users to sit through several lengthy loading screens. Lester stated flatly, "we need to make that go away." Ideally, Microsoft would like to make PC game installation as easy as the plug-and-play experience of console games, which can be played the instant a disc is dropped in the drive."

"Xbox 2 peripherals will all work on PC," said Lester, clarifying that Xbox controllers, steering wheels, and other console-related peripheral functionality will all be brought into Longhorn's portfolio, as will Xbox Live functionality. For game players, this will make for, if nothing else, an added convenience, since playing a game on their PC or their Xbox will [ideally] come down to little more than unplugging the controller from one, and plugging it into the other. For game developers, Microsoft hopes that the introduction of XNA will help standardize development on both platforms, ideally to an extent that "you won't have to choose between Xbox or PC" to develop games...and ideally, so that players won't have to choose between the two platforms to play them."

it would be awesome if you bought one game but worked on both xbox2 and pc. i wonder if that's what they're aiming for, i really hope it is.

 

[MetatronM]

Eh, they have to differentiate the two somehow. It just doesn't make good business sense for both the PC and the Xbox to be able to do the same things. If your PC can use Xbox peripherals, run XBL, and play Xbox games, then why buy an Xbox?

 

[Joe]

xbox advantage is that its cheaper, ease of use and some people prefer playing on tv/couch then monitor/chair.

pc advantage is better graphics, sound, and the mod community.

it would basically be the same but you get to choose what platform you wanna play on.

 

[BioFan]

cool news....PS3 it is then. And xbox 2 on PC

 

[Scrow]

it would be awesome if you bought one game but worked on both xbox2 and pc. i wonder if that's what they're aiming for, i really hope it is.

... why don't you use only your PC then? What would you need an XB2 for?

 

[gofreak]

Interesting...if Xbox2 and PC will be so interconnected, and you can play Xbox2 games on your PC, then I'd have no need for a Xbox2. My upgrade cycle puts me in a position to upgrade again in 2006, so if Xbox2 comes out late 2005/early 2006, my upgrade will very likely be able to handle anything a Xbox2 can.

Though I think this is unlikely to happen..I'd say they'll have seperate PC versions of some Xbox games, and vice versa, so with the overlapping titles you can choose more easily which one you want based on their differentiating features. Kinda like how it is now (say..Doom3 on Xbox vs Doom3 on PC), but with more convenience to allow you to replicate the Xbox2 experience with your PC games.

 

[FitzOfRage]

xbox advantage is that its cheaper, ease of use and some people prefer playing on tv/couch then monitor/chair.

pc advantage is better graphics, sound, and the mod community.

it would basically be the same but you get to choose what platform you wanna play on.

They reportedly pitched that idea to publishers with the XBox, and it didn't go over well. One of the problems is that you open the floodgate to all the shovelware in the PC market (consoles have shovelware too of course, but no where near to the extent of what goes on in the PC market of course, with thousands of just solitaire games out there) . You'd probably see a lot of companies putting "Xbox 2 compatible" stickers on their crappy games around launch to lure people in, the way a number of interactive DVDs tried to take advantage of the PS2 's launch doing the same thing.

And of course, if they were cross compatible, you couldn't really have any licensing fees. Because publishers could just make their games for the PC to get around them anyway. So either the system would beocme an even bigger money pit than the current one, or they'd throw the lower cost out the window.

 

[Joe]

to be cross compatible a company would need xna which microsoft licenses out.

 

[Ghost]

Xbox live on PC, Xbox 2 pepherials on PC, even Xbox 2 games on PC, sounds to me very much like they are trying to merge the two together...for me, if it pans out like this, i probably wont buy and xbox 2, but i actually see thats its a pretty cleaver tactic.

Picture Diablo 3 or some other highly anticipated PC game coming out as an xbox 2 game that runs on PC, sales easily go into millions (mainly from the PC side, but MS reap the rewards reguardless) They sell less consoles, so what? they lose money every time they sell one anyway.

And companies wont be able to "shove Xbox 2 compatible logos" on their cheap games because they'd need to pay license fees to MS for the privillige. It wouldnt be a matter of developers finding ways around their games running on Xbox 2 it would be a case of making sure they dont so their games dont get pulled off the shelves. Its not like Xbox 2 is going to be a PC anyway, its still going to have all the things like region coding and security to (try to) prevent piracy.


And its about fucking time someone did something about pc game installation, its gotten especially rediculous this year with games like UT.

 

[cybamerc]

Xbox is just a way of trying to secure Windows' position in the marketplace. Shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

 

[Vormund]

It doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

And basically he's saying the controller plug for Xbox2 is USB2.0?

 

[gofreak]

Xbox is just a way of trying to secure Windows' position in the marketplace. Shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

True. There is a danger in a strategy of merging the two systems, however, in that if Xbox2 sales struggled and dried up because of the availability on PC, publishers might just stop caring about putting their games on Xbox2, and just start putting them on PC only. Back to square one for Microsoft, except perhaps PC gaming would be a lot healthier, which microsoft would benefit from since most PCs use windows. But it could make their console efforts irrelevant.

There's also the issue of making the Xbox2 more and more like a PC...people may no longer consider it a console, and they may lose mindshare when people come to buy a "games console".

edit - it kind of sounds like this. Microsoft had both feet in PC games-land, then stuck one foot into console-land, and tried to balance the two. That may not have worked out as well as they hoped, so now, while keeping one foot in console-land, they seem to be pushing their weight back into PC land..trying to drag console-land in with it. Seems like they're trying to go back to stuff they're more familiar with.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

I don't agree about the comments regarding a merger of platforms. It's more of a convergence of standards and methods, enabling easier development and the lure of having two platforms that share many similarities. Console and PC side will still co-exist for a long, long time, even if MS ruled the console world.

 

[Ghost]

Well even ignoring the possibility of exclusive Xbox 2 games (which are sure to come from teams like Team Ninja who have no interest putting their games on PC) theres still the fact that Xbox 2, when it launches, will kick the ass of 95% of PC users systems, cost $300 and run through your TV. By the time PCs catch up with the performance (say a year or so) xbox 2 will still be a lot cheaper.

What people make of it surely is down to the games people buy for it, so yeah for some it'll be a PC gaming box, but for others who arent interested in the RTSs or other PC genres, it'll still have games like Madden, Burnout etc, the console stuff. As long as Xbox 2 still runs console games theres no reason that it would be thought of as a PC.

 

[cybamerc]

gofreak:

> But it could make their console efforts irrelevant.

M$ has plenty of money. It's a risk they're willing to take. Besides the Xbox project isn't about creating a successful console, it's about countering Sony which is seen as one of the biggest threats to their business.

> There's also the issue of making the Xbox2 more and more like a PC...people may no
> longer consider it a console, and they may lose mindshare when people come to buy
> a "games console".

Well, actually this was their initial plan. Make Xbox increasingly like a PC with each iteration. They've been forced to revise their plans somewhat because of Xbox' failure but behind the scenes they're still working on fusing the two platforms.

They're still hoping that Xbox will warm people up to their other product while it also buys them time to streamline Windows in the ways mentioned in the first post.

 

[gofreak]

Pretty much agree with everything you've said. It's interesting to see how internal politics at Microsoft is affecting Xbox's future...it seems those looking for a closer relationship with their PC business from the start are winning at the moment.

 

[ravingloon]

xbox advantage is that its cheaper, ease of use and some people prefer playing on tv/couch then monitor/chair.

pc advantage is better graphics, sound, and the mod community.

it would basically be the same but you get to choose what platform you wanna play on.

You also forgot that the popular PC games have plenty of servers with huge bandwith.

 

[Ghost]

If its the same game on PC and Xbox 2, they'd be playing on the same large servers with the same bandwidth.

 

[Teddman]

That makes sense, considering that Xboxes only lost Microsoft money for every unit they sell. Selling Xbox 2 software is where the money's at, not in the sales of consoles themselves.

 

[goodcow]

While it sounds good in theory, mergeing the two platforms will only lead to catastrophic amounts of piracy on both.

 

[teiresias]

Wow, and people thought having games ported between the PS2 and Xbox were resulting in poor looking games. Imagine the "least common denominator" syndrome that will infect Xbox2 software as developers try to use their development dollar to reach as many PC gamers as possible as well as Xbox2 users.

 

[open_mouth_]

I don't think you'll be able to play the same game on both platforms... it would defeat the purpose and uniqueness of either one. I think they're talking more of games that are made for both platforms but have unique features on either one, like one game that plays like an RTS on the PC, then like an FPS on the Xenon and connects through Live or something to that effect. You won't see Halo 3, PGR3 or Ninja Gaiden 2 made playable for the PC so long as Microsoft wants the Xenon to remain competitive in the console market against Sony/Nin. And they *have* stated their desire to compete for the market lead next-gen and what some of you guys are suggesting is not the way to do it and Microsoft is well aware of that.

 

[Teddman]

Wow, and people thought having games ported between the PS2 and Xbox were resulting in poor looking games. Imagine the "least common denominator" syndrome that will infect Xbox2 software as developers try to use their development dollar to reach as many PC gamers as possible as well as Xbox2 users.

I didn't get that sense from the article, as Lester mentions the new "level" system of rating graphical requirements to make it easier for the user to tell if their rig will run a game.

Microsoft is already working with major hardware manufacturers such as Nvidia, ATI, and Intel (along with OEM manufacturers) to create pre-packaged PCs with varying levels of mid-range to high-end hardware, with appropriately varying price points. Under such a plan, pre-packaged PCs with certain processor speeds, amounts of RAM, and certain types of video card would be given a simple classification or "level."

According to Lester, the plan is to simplify the process of selecting a good PC for games without having to be an expert on hardware. He provided a hypothetical example that a PC with a "level 5" designation might have a medium processor speed, amount of RAM, and mid-range video card, while a "level 7" PC might have a faster processor, more RAM, and a higher-end video card. As you might expect, the "level 5" PC would also be less expensive than the "level 7." Either way, the "level" designations are not final, and may not even be used at all. However, Microsoft is considering using them to help newer users figure out what PCs they need to play the games they want.

Microsoft is also considering applying this simplified designation system to a game's system requirements. That is, while game publishers will still be able to print detailed technical requirements on the back of a game box (speed of 3.0GHz and at least 512MB of RAM, for instance), these requirements might also be given a simpler designation. In essence, this system would let newer PC game players be able to quickly and easily determine that they need a computer of at least "level 5 or higher" to play a game with certain specific requirements, rather than trying to figure out exactly how much RAM they have.

 

[xsarien]

This is all very old stuff repackaged into a new article.

 

[rastex]

*sigh* Come on people THINK for a second. Just because you have the "ability" to play your PC game on your Xbox2 doesn't mean you'll actually be able to, remember those little things called The Approval Process and software signing?

Ahhh... just think a little bit. THIS is what they're saying. We'll license out tools for devs (XNA) this will allow them to make games that'll run on PC and Xbox2 easily. So they'll be able to release their game on the PC nice and easy, but to release it for Xbox2 is going to require them to send it for approval at MS. Shovelware crap "obviously" won't be approved for Xbox2, but for companies that plan ahead there'll be NO extra development time for the PC version or Xbox2 version (depending on what's the "lead").

So ya, for people that have sweet computers, they probably won't really need an Xbox2, but I mean, barring a few games, isn't that already the case now? Same with PS2, I mean the top selling games for both platforms are all available for the PC (better versions I might add). What nerds seem to forget is that not everybody even HAS a friggin computer, or one that can display things past 640x480. The computer market is QUITE different from the console market when you're talking about the mainstream masses. Hardcore nerds, not so much difference, but for the average joe, they're worlds apart.

GET IT?!

 

[Panajev2001a]

So the PC has better versions of Silent Hill 2, Silent Hill 3 (not according to the developers who ported them to PC it doen't , MGS2, Z.O.E. 2, GT3, GT4, Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy X-2 Final Fantasy XII, Castlevania: LoI, Shenmue II, Street Fighter 3, Kingdom Hearts, Spider-man 2 (lol), Virtua Fighter 4: Evolution, Tekken Tag Tournament, Tekken 4, Tekken 5, Sky Odissey, etc... ?

 

[pcostabel]

Nonsense. Xenon will be PowerPC based. There is no way Xenon games will run on PC. Now, if they mean that XNA based games can be ported to Xenon by simply recompiling, that's not too different from what is possible today with the Xbox.
This is yet another hint that MS is deemphazising the hardware to focus on XNA. They have probably already decided to exit the hardware market and try to license XNA to hardware manufacturers 3DO style.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

But how will this change when Sony and IBM start to announce PCs and servers running on the Cell and Cell OS?

For quite a while I really believed that open-source would never be a serious threat to MS, but I am slowly starting to believe that it is. So not only will MS have to face that assault, but then IBM and Sony walking into the server market and eventually the desktop.

 

[Razoric]

Uh what the hell are some of you guys smoking... all this means is that people can develope for both platforms at the same time with no extra work. For example we'd see Doom 3 for both PC and Xbox right now if it was developed using XNA. And if they used XNA you could even buy an xbox controller and play Doom 3 on your PC.

BUT... this is basically being done now but without XNA. Xbox gets most of the good PC games out there, this is only speeding that along. Like someone else said in this post, not everyone can keep up with PC upgrades and this is the perfect alternative for them.... BUT I also imagine that the Xbox 2 will still get games that aren't on PC.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

Nonsense. Xenon will be PowerPC based. There is no way Xenon games will run on PC. Now, if they mean that XNA based games can be ported to Xenon by simply recompiling, that's not too different from what is possible today with the Xbox.
This is yet another hint that MS is deemphazising the hardware to focus on XNA. They have probably already decided to exit the hardware market and try to license XNA to hardware manufacturers 3DO style.

I have heard rumblings of XNA being the back-up plan should Xenon not turn into the profit making venture MS is banking on.

I just don't know if it's fair to say they have already decided to get out of hardware. The notion is there, I just don't think they have pulled the trigger. They are have to atleast see if they can make money with the new xbox 2 strategy.

 

[gofreak]

BUT I also imagine that the Xbox 2 will still get games that aren't on PC.

And vice versa. I'm hoping this doesn't hold back the pace of technology in PC-land..hopefully there'll still be games made to take advantage of the cutting edge of PC hardware rather than pandering to a Xbox2-determined standard spec. I'm sure as long as developers use scalable engines it won't be a problem though.

It'll be cool to have PC games "live-enabled".

 

[IJoel]

Uh what the hell are some of you guys smoking... all this means is that people can develope for both platforms at the same time with no extra work. For example we'd see Doom 3 for both PC and Xbox right now if it was developed using XNA. And if they used XNA you could even buy an xbox controller and play Doom 3 on your PC.

BUT... this is basically being done now but without XNA. Xbox gets most of the good PC games out there, this is only speeding that along. Like someone else said in this post, not everyone can keep up with PC upgrades and this is the perfect alternative for them.... BUT I also imagine that the Xbox 2 will still get games that aren't on PC.

Keep your reasonable arguments out of the thread please!

 

[xsarien]

I have heard rumblings of XNA being the back-up plan should Xenon not turn into the profit making venture MS is banking on.

That much should be obvious from the fact that the controllers are apparently cross-platform, as well as bringing Live to the PC. I don't think anyone's in denial about the XBox 2 being the make or break for the project, and unless they're able to crack Japan this time around, it's going to be just as difficult for them as it was with the first XBox. But Microsoft just wants in on gaming, they don't necessarily care where people do it. If they can leverage their power on the PC to make it a solid platform for games, they'd probably much rather do that. They wouldn't have to invest in nearly as much.

 

[kaching]

Lester reaffirmed Microsoft's dedication to making Longhorn's game functionality be as accessible as that of a modern console. However, he said the company wants to retain the strengths of the PC platform, including high-end graphics and sound hardware, online communities, post-release community support, and content updates like modifications and maps.

I'm all for plug and play gaming like consoles, while retaining the more advanced benefits of PC gaming.

As for the rest of the debate, I think I'll just grab some popcorn on this one

 

[DrGAKMAN]

By reading that one part about different "levels" of PC's it sorta sounded like MS themselves were going to make PC's as well as consoles. I remember a long time ago that MS wanted to make their own PC hardware so they could have more control, but other PC makers *hated* the idea and would likely pack-in competing OS's in their hardware just to spite MS. This is one of the many reasons that led to the X-BOX, MS wanted to control the OS, the software and the hardware...and the only place they could do it without pissing off PC makers (Dell, Gateway, Compaq, HP, you get the idea) is to make hardware that didn't compete with them, but instead competed for the living room (home video game consoles). Is MS going back to the original idea of making their own software/hardware controlled PC's? That would certainly make PC/console gaming easier for developers & gamers and they could thusly make it to where the same game (using XNA) can be played on their PC's or their consoles which, in the end, is good for developers/publishers 'cos they'll be reaching two completly different markets by making just one game.

But what about (easier) piracy, what about PC hardware makers, what about competing OS's that would use the opportunity to strike at Windows? They could do hardware licencing (which is ultimatly what Sony will want to do with the PlayStation brand once they get 99% of the games market) which would make them more money and might appease the PC hardware makers?

 

[xsarien]

By reading that one part about different "levels" of PC's it sorta sounded like MS themselves were going to make PC's as well as consoles. I remember a long time ago that MS wanted to make their own PC hardware so they could have more control, but other PC makers *hated* the idea and would likely pack-in competing OS's in their hardware just to spite MS. This is one of the many reasons that led to the X-BOX,

Not really. Microsoft doesn't care about hardware, they just want to make sure it's Microsoft software that's controlling it. The XBox was originially proposed as a standard for other hardware vendors to follow, pretty much like 3DO. No one was interested except for Microsoft, so they pushed ahead with it.

If Microsoft had their way, the XBox, as slightly ironic as it may be, wouldn't exist. The PS2 or GameCube would be running Microsoft software.

 

[P90]

but then IBM and Sony walking into the server market and eventually the desktop.

They have been there for years. Sony has made desktop computers for quite awhile. IBM has been in the server and desktop business longer than MS.

 

[Phoenix]

it would be awesome if you bought one game but worked on both xbox2 and pc. i wonder if that's what they're aiming for, i really hope it is.

That would mean only one SKU for a product that could have 2 SKUs - don't think so.

 

[P90]

.

If Microsoft had their way, the XBox, as slightly ironic as it may be, wouldn't exist. The PS2 or GameCube would be running Microsoft software.

Kinda like the Dreamcast?

 

[Sysgen]

The Japan "Thing". If MS sells XNA to Japanese developers so they can also get their titles to PC at no additional expense , guess which console is getting those Japanese titles first. The Japanese gaming market as I've read is in a decline. As a Japanese developer I would jump at the chance to sell my product at no additional cost on the PC.

 

[pcostabel]

The Japan "Thing". If MS sells XNA to Japanese developers so they can also get their titles to PC at no additional expense , guess which console is getting those Japanese titles first. The Japanese gaming market as I've read is in a decline. As a Japanese developer I would jump at the chance to sell my product at no additional cost on the PC.

Yes, because the PC is such a huge market...
XNA works the other way around, making easy to port PC games to Xenon. Console developers don't care about the PC market, mostly because few console style games are viable on PC.

 

[rastex]

Panajev, I said top selling. As per sonycowboy's list, 9 of the top 10 best selling games are available for PC, and 15 of the top 20, with arguably all the best versions residing on the PC.

 

[dave is ok]

I'm sure Microsoft has thought this out a bit more than we have, to increase console sales they could just wait on implementing the whole PC game = Xbox game and Xbox game = PC game thing until a year or two after launch.

 

[rastex]

Console developers don't care about the PC market, mostly because few console style games are viable on PC.

Gotta love the way you back up your sweeping generalizations...

 

[pcostabel]

Panajev, I said top selling. As per sonycowboy's list, 9 of the top 10 best selling games are available for PC, and 15 of the top 20, with arguably all the best versions residing on the PC.

Huh? GT3 FFX and SSB:M are on PC?

 

[element]

Console developers don't care about the PC market, mostly because few console style games are viable on PC.

Why is Konami porting many of their games to the PC? Why is Capcom porting some of their games to the PC? Why is EA still pushing forward with a strong PC lineup?

Console games might not be viable now on the PC due to poor peripheral, I mean who wants to play a console game on a keyboard. But if a publisher has the ability to pretty much add another SKU to sell by simply 'recompiling' their game. Most console publishers would jump on that.

 

[pcostabel]

Why is Konami porting many of their games to the PC? Why is Capcom porting some of their games to the PC? Why is EA still pushing forward with a strong PC lineup?

Some genres are very popular on PC (FPS, strategy, sports etc.) so I can see companies porting them. Still, the PC market is only 10% of the console market, so don't expect Japanese developers to drop PS3 and develop for Xenon because of the ease of porting to PC. Besides, the cost of a port is not the main issue to decide which platform to support.
Many game developers use RenderWare, which runs on all consoles and on PC, yet many RenderWare games are not available on PC or even on GC... it's all about the marketing costs: if a certain type of game is not likely to sell on a certain platform publishers are not going to spend the money for promotion/royalties etc.

P.S. Which Konami and Capcom games are on PC? I'm not a PC gamer, so I'm just curious...

 

[rastex]

Huh? GT3 FFX and SSB:M are on PC?

sorry, 4 out of the top 5, 7 out of the top 10, 16 out of the top 20.

 

[rastex]

Many game developers use RenderWare, which runs on all consoles and on PC, yet many RenderWare games are not available on PC or even on GC... it's all about the marketing costs: if a certain type of game is not likely to sell on a certain platform publishers are not going to spend the money for promotion/royalties etc.

Man... you sure love your sweeping generalizations. What Renderware games have not appeared on PC? The only ones I can think of are the Burnout series and I can pretty much guarantee you that now Criterion is under EA, BO4 *will* be on the PC as well. And in terms of GC support, let's just say that 1.5GB is actually a small amount of storage space.

 

[element]

P.S. Which Konami and Capcom games are on PC? I'm not a PC gamer, so I'm just curious...

Silent Hill 2, Silent Hill 3, Silent Hill 4, Metal Gear Solid, Metal Gear Solid 2 Substance, Shadow of Destiny, TMNT 1, TMNT 2, Frogger, Pro Evolution Soccer 3, Pro Evolution Soccer 4. With more to come.

so don't expect Japanese developers to drop PS3 and develop for Xenon because of the ease of porting to PC

no one is saying that. Most people are saying this is an advantage for publishers to fully support Xenon. Publishers can support both you know.

Many game developers use RenderWare

Which is going to stop. EA buying Criterion pretty much killed the future of RenderWare.

Panajev, I said top selling. As per sonycowboy's list, 9 of the top 10 best selling games are available for PC, and 15 of the top 20, with arguably all the best versions residing on the PC.

There are only five titles in the top ten that have PC ports. And then only five more if you include it to the top 20. So your numbers are off.

sorry, 4 out of the top 5, 7 out of the top 10, 16 out of the top 20.

What games are you looking at? Games with PC ports in bold.
GRAND THEFT AUTO:VICE
GRAND THEFT AUTO 3
GRAN TURISMO 3:A-SPEC
HALO
MADDEN NFL 2004
MADDEN NFL 2003
SUPER SMASH BRO MELEE
FINAL FANTASY X
MEDAL HONOR FRONTLINE
TONY HAWKS PRO SKATR3
KINGDOM HEARTS
NEED SPEED: UNDERGRND
METAL GEAR SOLID 2
MADDEN NFL 2002
SPIDER-MAN: THE MOVIE
MARIO KART: DOUBLE
DRAGONBALL Z: BUDOKAI
ATV OFF ROAD FURY
NBA STREET