• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

NBA Finals 2016 |OT| - The King demands seconds. The Chef delivers.

Status
Not open for further replies.
G

Gigglepoo

Member
eBay Huckster said:
somehow I don't think Cleveland would've taken 7 games to put OKC away, so it is what it is
Click to expand...

Why?

Jonm1010 said:
For me to mentally accept the Cavs winning I have to assume the Warriors really shit the bed and the Cavs play better then they have shown themselves capable of playing so far.
Click to expand...

Which is certainly possible. OKC seemed like a different team after their first game against the Spurs. But Lue is going to have to come up with an otherworldly gameplan to elevate the Cavs to the Warriors level.
 
M

Mass Appeal

Member
eBay Huckster said:
just gonna respond to a couple posts in particular on page 1 since i've been out all day



somehow I don't think Cleveland would've taken 7 games to put OKC away, so it is what it is



hrm, yes, a "healthy Cavs team" featuring Kyrie in his tenth game back from fracturing his kneecap, new Darussafaka head coach David Blatt coaching, no Channing Frye, and some mascot dude who got traded to GS playing 17 minutes
Click to expand...



That OKC team would have taken the Cavs to 7 games easily. If that Toronto team played in the West, they would have probably been a 6th-8th seed. I was shocked the Cavs actually lost two games to them.

Conclusion, the Eastern Conference sucks. It's also one of the reasons Lebron is in his 6th straight finals appearance. If he played in the West, no way does he get to 6 straight finals.
 
E

eBay Huckster

Member
Gigglepoo said:
Why?
Click to expand...

namely because they pose matchup problems for GS that they don't for Cleveland

Mass Appeal said:
That OKC team would have taken the Cavs to 7 games easily. If that Toronto team played in the West, they would have probably been a 6th-8th seed.
Click to expand...

appropriate username, given that this post is casual as fuck. that toronto team went 17-13 against the west with something like 10 of those losses coming against the conference dumpster fires and the jazz. i don't know if they're a 56-win team in the west, but they're probably a safe bet for 4-5.
 
K

King Tubby

Member
Warriors in 6. I just don't see Cavs defending them as well as OKC did with Kyrie and Love on the floor, and I don't see them outdoing OKC on offense to compensate.

friskykillface said:
Live by the JR
Die by the JR
Click to expand...

JR is the kind of player that makes you upset when he hits a tough jump shot because you know it means he's going to take and miss 3 more just like it.
 
beat

beat

Member
(continued from the previous playoff thread)
ryutaro's mama said:
You know what "formula" the Warriors figured out about the Thunder? The spammed the fuck out of getting that switch exploit onto Adams with Klay and Steph and they burned them in the last 6 minutes of the 4th.

OKC SHOULD have had an answer for that and they didn't. Why not?.
Click to expand...

Switching is, so far, the league's collective best solution to the Warriors running screen plays. You can't go under a screen on Klay or Steph, they'll hit the jumper. You can't even go over the screen, that's still enough room for them to fire and probably hit, plus the screener could roll. You can't double or the Warriors are playing 4 on 3 and the screener's a good passer, a good scorer/shooter, or both. So you gotta switch.

If the bigs could run the shooters off the three point line, well, Klay isn't otherworldly on drives to the hoop and a still-recovering Steph wasn't either. And Steph, I think getting a shot up over an NBA big required a little more lift or explosiveness in his legs than he had earlier in the series. Didn't he get a three or two blocked this series? That almost never happens when he's at full health. Basically, switching against GSW works as well as it did because OKC's bigs are mobile and disciplined, and it ultimately failed because Steph is getting more and more of his cheat code Steph mode back.


Anyways, finals talk! For everything I said above, I think Cleveland will try switching screens too. It won't work much if Curry is healthy and throwing in ridiculous contested threes but it'll still be preferable to giving up 4-on-3 situations.
 
S

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
Jonm1010 said:
Thats the rub for me. The Cavs will need to shoot as good or better then the Warriors to make up for what they are gonna give up defensively.

And that is going to be really hard to do over 7 games. The Dubs shot 40% from 3 against a pretty impressive Thunder defense. Now swap Westbrook and Roberson for Irving and Smith, Ibaka for Love. 40% seems a best case scenario for the Cavs to hold them to defensively.

On the flip side you have the Cavs shooting 39% from 3 against a more beat up, worse Toronto defense.

For me to mentally accept the Cavs winning I have to assume the Warriors really shit the bed and the Cavs play better then they have shown themselves capable of playing so far.
Click to expand...

If Curry or Thompson gets hurt and when Green gets ejected would be the only way I see them winning. OKC played extremely good D and held the Warriors down in every game, where if their offense delivered. It would have been over.
 
J

Jonm1010

Banned
Gigglepoo said:
Which is certainly possible. OKC seemed like a different team after their first game against the Spurs. But Lue is going to have to come up with an otherworldly gameplan to elevate the Cavs to the Warriors level.
Click to expand...

And from early reports:

Tyronn Lue said he won't be scared to play his big lineup against the Warriors.

The Warriors smaller lineup can present challenges to opposing teams, but Lue is confident the Cavs big men can continue to be effective. While Timofey Mozgov hasn't played much in the postseason, he had some success against the Warriors in the 2015 NBA Finals and could be dusted off for 10-15 minutes per game. Kevin Love, Tristan Thompson, and Channing Frye will continue to see the majority of Cleveland's "big" minutes.
Click to expand...

I'm skeptical he has that gameplan in his pocket.
 
G

Gigglepoo

Member
beat said:
Anyways, finals talk! For everything I said above, I think Cleveland will try switching screens too. It won't work much if Curry is healthy and throwing in ridiculous contested threes but it'll still be preferable to giving up 4-on-3 situations.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I would try trapping Klay and Steph whenever the opportunity presents itself. Force Green, Barnes, Iguodala, Livingston, or whoever is the worst shoot on the floor to beat you. It's tough because those guys are good passers but I don't think the Cavs have the athletes to switch.
 
E

eBay Huckster

Member
Gigglepoo said:
Honestly, I would try trapping Klay and Steph whenever the opportunity presents itself. Force Green, Barnes, Iguodala, Livingston, or whoever is the worst shoot on the floor to beat you. It's tough because those guys are good passers but I don't think the Cavs have the athletes to switch.
Click to expand...

yeah, if their bigs were quicker & better at defensive fundamentals on balance they'd be better off with switching, but unfortunately lebron and home-game thompson are the only players in their frontcourt who wouldn't be dumpster fires for more than a few minutes per game (love is slow and bad, frye is one of those, mozgov is slow)
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
interesting Zach Lowe (the best basketball writer on the planet IMO) article on the Cavs from during the middle of the Cleveland/Toronto series:http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/15700317/toronto-exposed-cavaliers-weakest-link

Some key and potentially hilarious points:

The Cavs have now allowed 105.7 points per 100 possessions in the playoffs, a mark that would have ranked 22nd in the regular season, and a disturbing drop-off from their season-long performance.
Click to expand...

The Raptors have ruthlessly hammered that Irving/Love wall into rubble. Point guard Kyle Lowry has destroyed Irving, especially in Game 4 on Monday, either losing Irving behind screens or juking him out of the play by faking toward a pick -- and then bolting the other direction. Those same fakes bait Love into lunging the wrong way and defending air.
Click to expand...

But Irving and Love have been the central players in Cleveland's worst breakdowns. Opponents in the playoffs have scored 1.09 points per chance when they involve those two as the primary pick-and-roll defenders in a play that leads directly to a shot attempt, drawn foul or turnover, per SportVU data provided to ESPN.com. That would have ranked last by a mile among 119 two-man combos that defended at least 250 pick-and-rolls in the regular season, per that SportVU data set.

Zoom out to include any trip that features a pick-and-roll targeting Irving and Love at any time, and the number gets worse: a hideous 1.207 points allowed per possession, stingier than only one of those 119 duos -- the Jrue Holiday/Ryan Anderson pairing in New Orleans.
Click to expand...

Opponents know this stuff. They are putting Irving and Love into twice as many pick-and-rolls each game as they averaged in the regular-season, a massive jump out of proportion to the slight uptick in minutes the two are playing together. These are the sort of numbers that had members of the Golden State Warriors' coaching staff quietly fretting when both Love and Irving missed last year's NBA Finals, forcing the Cavs to play superior defenders in their place.
Click to expand...

It's hilarious that people are reading anything into the Warriors struggles against OKC when, defensively, Cleveland are like the anti-Thunder.
 
R

RoKKeR

Member
Warriors in 7.

Can't wait for the series, going to be great.

I think I want the Warriros to win because LeBron has reverted back to early Heat days of being a bag, but I can't deny how great of a story it would be if he finally brought one home to Cleveland.
 
F

friskykillface

Banned
The drop off from Westbrook -> Kyrie and Adams -> Love is a huge advantage for the warriors

Curry was struggling guarding him in the beginning of the series due to his speed X athleticism but now his meh defense will be enough
Green will just stay with Love outside the paint X the 3 point line

Maybe Bogut and his shitty play will be enough to hang with Thompson
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
friskykillface said:
The drop off from Westbrook -> Kyrie and Adams -> Love is a huge advantage for the warriors

Curry was struggling guarding him in the beginning of the series due to his speed X athleticism but now his meh defense will be enough
Green will just stay with Love outside the paint X the 3 point line

Maybe Bogut and his shitty play will be enough to hang with Thompson
Click to expand...

I think Kerr will have a quick hook with Bogut.
 
M

Montresor

Member
I'm just a casual NBA observer. I saw the highlights of Golden State's game 7 win.

My god, Curry completely obliterated OKC at the very very end. The highlight where Curry is all alone, dribbling towards the net, and THEN HE DRIBBLES AWAY FROM THE NET around a bunch of OKC players and effortlessly throws down the 3.

OKC was hopeless. What can they possibly do to combat that?
 
D

demosthenes

Member
Not really a basketball fan outside the playoffs. Hoping the series goes 7 though and hoping the Cavs win just because I'm from Buffalo and I know the feeling :lol
 
P

PadWarrior

Member
Ninja Scooter said:
interesting Zach Lowe (the best basketball writer on the planet IMO) article on the Cavs from during the middle of the Cleveland/Toronto series:http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/15700317/toronto-exposed-cavaliers-weakest-link

Some key and potentially hilarious points:

mozgov mention has to be a smokescreen, he's been little more than a large lumbering body without a soul for months now
Click to expand...
Did he get hurt this year? His play really dropped off:







It's hilarious that people are reading anything into the Warriors struggles against OKC when, defensively, Cleveland are like the anti-Thunder.[/QUOTE]
Wow this is a good read. Curry and Thompson must be chomping at the bit for this.
 
J

Jonm1010

Banned
Ninja Scooter said:
interesting Zach Lowe (the best basketball writer on the planet IMO) article on the Cavs from during the middle of the Cleveland/Toronto series:http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/15700317/toronto-exposed-cavaliers-weakest-link

Some key and potentially hilarious points:









It's hilarious that people are reading anything into the Warriors struggles against OKC when, defensively, Cleveland are like the anti-Thunder.
Click to expand...

As a Pelicans fan I guess I just have been watching for a couple years what happens when you have a really poor defender in the front and back court at most times so its hard for me to understand why some people can't see why the Love/Kyrie combo won't be a huge liability.

Ryan Anderson and Love are fairly similar in PnR defense and you just can't cover that up over 7 games against a great team. When that other team is also more offensively potent then you? You really need a lot of breaks to go your way to win. Not impossible or unheard of but unlikely.
 
L

Lightning

Banned
Bam Bam Baklava said:
I would argue the other way around. People get fooled with the Cavs beating the worst teams in the playoffs and having "that Lebron guy who I hear is good" and thinking they're going to win. Or thinking that Irving and Love are going to put up 20ppg each while locking down on defense. It's ridiculous.

Warriors are the favorites in Vegas, favorites in 538 predictions, favorites in ESPN BPI with the most likely outcome being a 5 game series win. Let's get real.
Click to expand...
I would argue that against Toronto the Cavs beat themselves by taking the Raptors for granted in those 2 games. When the Cavs played seriously in game 6 we all saw what happened and in the home games they were never a contest. Simply discounting what the Cavs have done because it's the East makes me wonder why no one on the other teams have been able to do it if it's so easy?

I'm really excited for these finals as anyone other than Cleveland in these finals and the finals would have been a joke. No one other then cleveland would even give GSW a contest.

LeBron wants to be the king. Kyrie wants to show he's good enough to lead a franchise. Nows their chance with a healthy team that's rested to see what they can do. If anything I think compliancy has been Cavaliers biggest weakness and I don't think it will exist in these finals.
 
P

PBY

Banned
Lightning said:
I would argue that against Toronto the Cavs beat themselves by taking the Raptors for granted in those 2 games. When the Cavs played seriously in game 6 we all saw what happened and in the home games they were never a contest. Simply discounting what the Cavs have done because it's the East makes me wonder why no one on the other teams have been able to do it if it's so easy?

I'm really excited for these finals as anyone other than Cleveland in these finals and the finals would have been a joke. No one other then cleveland would even give GSW a contest.

LeBron wants to be the king. Kyrie wants to show he's good enough to lead a franchise. Nows their chance with a healthy team that's rested to see what they can do. If anything I think compliancy has been Cavaliers biggest weakness and I don't think it roll exist in these finals.
Click to expand...

You contradicted yourself in a span of two sentences in the bolded.
 
J

Jonm1010

Banned
Lightning said:
I would argue that against Toronto the Cavs beat themselves by taking the Raptors for granted in those 2 games. When the Cavs played seriously in game 6 we all saw what happened and in the home games they were never a contest. Simply discounting what the Cavs have done because it's the East makes me wonder why no one on the other teams have been able to do it if it's so easy?

I'm really excited for these finals as anyone other than Cleveland in these finals and the finals would have been a joke. No one other then cleveland would even give GSW a contest.

LeBron wants to be the king. Kyrie wants to show he's good enough to lead a franchise. Nows their chance with a healthy team that's rested to see what they can do. If anything I think compliancy has been Cavaliers biggest weakness and I don't think it roll exist in these finals.
Click to expand...
LOL
 
L

Lightning

Banned
PBY said:
You contradicted yourself in a span of two sentences in the bolded.
Click to expand...
Poorly worded on my part. Meh.

Can't be bothered with this. Going to do what I've done all year and just watch and hope Cavs win. Been great to watch since Lue took over.
 
T

TwntyOneTwlv

Member
Cavs in 6. Because I'm from Cleveland and because I don't want to see that dirty sob Draymond Dick Kick win again.

Man I hate that guy
 
H

Heavy_D206

Member
Being from Seattle I can take extreme joy in OKC staying home for the finals.

Chef Curry got the hot hands and they gotta send LeBron and co. packing their bags next.
 
S

sytadel

Member
CopperPuppy said:
I agree that there is a bit too much underestimating going on, and that Frye and Love will more than likely be the X factors, from a 3-point shooting and rebounding standpoint, respectively.

Regarding your first point, it's absolutely true that Cleveland has more offensive options than last year. Unfortunately, these additional options are defensive sieves, so a balancing act will be necessary, and not something a rookie coach is traditionally good at. To answer another poster above, this is why the Cavs aren't automatically that much better with the addition of better offensive options. You can't put seven players on the court at once, so it's going to be necessary to balance these better scorers, who will be taking touches away from LeBron and are generally dreadful defensively, with better defensive players that will make LeBron the go-to scorer. Balancing between these schemes is going to be difficult for Lue, who isn't above rookie coaching foibles.

Regarding your second point, I'll note that OKC took those three games because they weren't primarily running Durant and Westbrook isolations. When their ball movement was on point and Adams-Ibaka-Waiters-Roberson were contributing, they were off to the races. When they fell into their typical hero ball tendencies, they collapsed. In Game 6, for instance, the Thunder had 13 possessions in the last 5 or so minutes. They only passed the ball more than once on one of those possessions. Shit like that is why they lost 4. Decent coaching that kept them away from iso-ball is why they took those 3.
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm reading into phrasing too much, but you say "taking touches away from Lebron" like that's a bad thing. In 3 of the 4 Cavs losses in the finals last year, Lebron shot under 40% (on insane volume of course). He needs the offensive help.

While balancing schemes could be difficult for a new coach, do you not see it as a huge advantage over last year that he actually has the option of multiple schemes? Last year the Cavs had one viable scheme, the Warriors eventually adjusted, and rattled off 3 wins to close it out.
 
M

Mr.Sumal

Member
JDB said:
Yeah how could they lose with PnR defense like this

https://vine.co/v/iOLFbZHA60V

Watch out


Seriously basketball is more than "Tristan Thompson put up 9ppg and Kevin Love is capable of 20ppg so that's 11 extra points. Cleveland lost 2 games by 8 so with Kevin's extra 11 they would have won by 3"
Click to expand...

Your basing your argument based on that game? Man this is the playoffs there's going to be adjustments made if love is getting killed on the pick & roll

Besides Cavaliers would be in trouble if they are forced to use flat-footed Mozgov to sub in for Love so that Frye acquisition is so damn key for this series

BTW you shouldn't diminish Love's impact on the game you'll see once this series starts believe me I thought he was Mr. Empty Stat padder until the playoffs but he showed up this postseason
 
J

Jonm1010

Banned
Mr.Sumal said:
Your basing your argument based on that game? Man this is the playoffs there's going to be adjustments made if love is getting killed on the pick & roll

Besides Cavaliers would be in trouble if they are forced to use flat-footed Mozgov to sub in for Love so that Frye acquisition is so damn key for this series

BTW you shouldn't diminish Love's impact on the game you'll see once this series starts believe me I thought he was Mr. Empty Stat padder until the playoffs but he showed up this postseason
Click to expand...
Do the playoffs come with magical boosts in athleticism and defensive IQ.

Because I don't know how you get around Love and Kyrie's deficiencies if they haven't figured it out by now.
 
JrBaconCheeseburger

JrBaconCheeseburger

Member
Part of me is hoping lebron can bring a title to cleveland.

With that being said, it will be very sad if he loses yet another NBA Final.

3 in a row damn.

Legacy tarnished.
 
C

CopperPuppy

Member
sytadel said:
Maybe I'm reading into phrasing too much, but you say "taking touches away from Lebron" like that's a bad thing. In 3 of the 4 Cavs losses in the finals last year, Lebron shot under 40% (on insane volume of course). He needs the offensive help.

While balancing schemes could be difficult for a new coach, do you not see it as a huge advantage over last year that he actually has the option of multiple schemes? Last year the Cavs had one viable scheme, the Warriors eventually adjusted, and rattled off 3 wins to close it out.
Click to expand...

I think those are all valid points. I suppose the main point of my post was that most of the Cavs rotations this time around are going to include Irving and/or Love in some capacity as these guys will be playing a lot of minutes, and that the Cavs' defense will suffer accordingly.

That said, I think it's fair to say that LeBron will benefit from help on offense and that the Cavs as a whole will benefit from having more options.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Final Fantasy VII Rebirth PC |OT| The Definitive Edition
|OT| 9 10 11 12 13
631
32K
Nickolaidas replied
The 12 days of Gafmas |OT| The year in thread popularity!
28
1K
jm89 replied
Homeworld 3 delayed until May, as the developers make 'the final tweaks needed to deliver at the level of quality that we strive for and you deserve'
News
1
826
gaheris replied
King celebrates Candy Crush Saga’s 15,000th level and $20B in revenue
Business Sales-Age
12
2K
Dick Jones replied
DF - Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth: PS5 Pro vs PS5 - A Vast Improvement At 60FPS
10 11 12 13 14
658
41K
TGO replied
Top Bottom