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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
It's an assumption I made based on my belief about the Gonzalo and Reddit OQA leaks, the Scarlett SoC shot, and Navi 10 power consumption. For me, RT is neither here nor there when it comes to what I want out of next-gen = 60fps. I love how Zen 2 CPU has become passé, and instead of people gushing over that the focus is on shiny shit and RT like I mused in my other post.
I have hope because MS has made some comments about 60fps. Hopefully it will be an industry practice to just have "Performance" and "Visual" modes for games.
So from that DF video, according to AMD, Navi 5700XT is 14% faster then Vega64 13.7TF.
This means something like Navi 5700 at 8TF matches 12.9TF Vega64. Very indicative for anyone who has followed dev kits leaks since January .
Benji said PS5 dev kits are close to 13TF, another one saying 12.9TF, and given this was in January, these dev kits where 100% Vega based as there was no way Sony could sample retail chip that early (last time around they had PC parts until start of 2013)
8TF "nightmare" coming closer and closer. Seriously, considering IPC gains vs GCN, this will be more then enough. We are basicallly getting Nvidia flops in consoles for everyone that wanted it so bad
This means something like Navi 5700 at 8TF matches 12.9TF Vega64. Very indicative for anyone who has followed dev kits leaks since January .
Benji said PS5 dev kits are close to 13TF, another one saying 12.9TF, and given this was in January, these dev kits where 100% Vega based as there was no way Sony could sample retail chip that early (last time around they had PC parts until start of 2013)
8TF "nightmare" coming closer and closer. Seriously, considering IPC gains vs GCN, this will be more then enough. We are basicallly getting Nvidia flops in consoles for everyone that wanted it so bad
TeamGhobad
Banned
how the fuck are we getting anything even remotely close to 8k with 36 CUs????
this is gonna be the smallest leap in graphics ever.
this is gonna be the smallest leap in graphics ever.
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According to Richard, 8-9TF Navi is more like ~13TF Vega.
Fake
Member
Indeed. Dunno if they're receiving more info than they could analyze, but still.
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xool
Member
Tons of sites and youtubes making a living out of re-spinning old info. DF is just the high performer of the group - but ultimately they add nothing.
Negotiator
Member
I imagine it would work like the Nintendo Switch development process (portable vs docked, portable mode is the baseline and docked just offers a resolution bump with slightly better fps/effects).
If Zen 2 becomes the baseline and devs target 30 fps (once again), Jaguar-based consoles would run 4 times slower: 7-8 fps.
If the baseline goes up to 60 fps, Jaguar-based consoles would run at 15 fps.
There's also a chance that next-gen AI will utilize GPU cores (think of Tensor acceleration for deep learning/neural networks), which will make forward compatibility for GCN-based consoles even harder:
So no, even XB1X will be too antiquated for truly next-gen games.
8TF of Navi flops will probably be too low, especially for PSVR2 content.
I'd rather avoid a PS5 Pro situation if possible.
The most credible rumor for me is this one:
Ps5 2020 infos - Pastebin.com
$599 BoM cost, $499 MSRP. Surely Sony can offer something a lot faster than a plain 5700 Navi GPU?
Remember, $599 is over $200 more expensive compared to OG PS4 BoM cost: https://www.engadget.com/2013/11/19/ps4-costs-381-to-make-according-to-hardware-teardown/
They can definitely afford a bigger die size, even at 7nm, along with vapor chamber cooling of course.
Sony of 2020 will be very different from Sony of 2013, they have immense PSN profits that they can put to good use, if they want to keep their market lead.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
That is what my quote basically says. "Vega 64 performance". It makes zero difference whether the headline TF figures are 8-9TF vs 12-13TF if performance is the same.....
I'm surprised so many here and reset are getting so confused about this!?
Fake
Member
Most surprising is this not getting you confuse. RDNA getting everyone from surprise, unless you're know before all this happens. Speaking about TF is not an easy task, for now AMD is saying TF > TF so course people will get confuse.
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
8TF "nightmare" coming closer and closer. Seriously, considering IPC gains vs GCN, this will be more then enough. We are basicallly getting Nvidia flops in consoles for everyone that wanted it so bad
The idea of Vega 56 - Vega 64 performance was generally poo-pooed. When enthusiasts talked about 12-13TF they knew Navi was being used and accounted for the IPC gains. AdoredTV had a lot to do with this as most people(myself included) and even tech sites were using his charts as a basis for comparison of ideas.
People aren't really confused, 2060/1080/Vega64 perf is considered low-ball, conservative estimates. 36-44CU is considered conservative, most enthusiasts were expecting ~60CU to fit into the die area with 24-32GB RAM on top.
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Sorry, missread your post. Yea I agree, 8-9TF Navi is 13TF Vega and its clear these where in dev kits IMO.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Feel free to try and explain how I'm confused.
Fake
Member
Stadia use Navi?
Its more hard to explain 'why' you're not confused.
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Did you miss part where 8TF Navi would be around 25% faster then Vega in Stadia?
ethomaz
Banned
You will see how the masses will meltdown when they announce 8TFs lol
There is no confusion about that... 8TF will backslash both machines.
That is irrelevant... it is 8 vs 10 yet.
BTW Navi better perf/flop could be or not be better than Vega because nobody knows how much yet... and in a console environment I believe the Vega efficiency could be better than what you got on PC.
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THE:MILKMAN
Member
Wait...So you are agreeing with me? Your posts in reply to me come across as you are disagreeing with me but the language barrier seems to be getting in the way.
Burrito Bandito
Banned
lol come on guys. This is the EXACT reason MS and Sony are not talking about TFs. They know very well that it doesnt matter what the performance is, even people on hardcore gaming sites like GAF only truly care about the number.
Everyone wanted 13~ TFs....and thats exactly the performance you are getting but since the number is 9 you are upset.
9 Navi tflops are roughly 13 tflops by current standards. So yea 9 might only be 3 more than the one X’s 6 but in reality its more than double the performance (13tf)
couple that with the MASSIVE cpu improvements and hardware ray tracing, these consoles should really impress. in fact they will put out better fidelity than 95% of the gaming pc’s out there.
Everyone wanted 13~ TFs....and thats exactly the performance you are getting but since the number is 9 you are upset.
9 Navi tflops are roughly 13 tflops by current standards. So yea 9 might only be 3 more than the one X’s 6 but in reality its more than double the performance (13tf)
couple that with the MASSIVE cpu improvements and hardware ray tracing, these consoles should really impress. in fact they will put out better fidelity than 95% of the gaming pc’s out there.
Ovech-King
Member
The most credible rumor for me is this one:
Ps5 2020 infos - Pastebin.com
pastebin.com
Sony of 2020 will be very different from Sony of 2013, they have immense PSN profits that they can put to good use, if they want to keep their market lead.
Based on everything I've read I agree 100% . Same for Sony having deeper pockets now
Fake
Member
Translation dude. You can't deny people was get off guard about RDNA. Its natural for some folks still get confused about TF.
Negotiator
Member
There's a confusion between traditional 3D rasterization vs GPGPU/compute shaders.
Navi at 8TF may be equal to Vega 64 at 13TF in rasterization, but there's no way it's equal in heavy compute workloads.
Video games (and more specifically console games) tend to offload more and more stuff on compute shaders (including AI among other things), so compromising the TF count might also compromise next-gen game design (not just graphics/resolution, modern GPUs don't just draw pixels).
People are confused because they think the (much improved) Zen 2 CPU will have to do the grunt work, but that's not the case for consoles (unlike PCs). Console (AAA) games use low-level APIs for the most part (except indie/low-budget games).
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Yes... "I am 3rd party developer and my father works at Nintendo, so I know every part of Sonys and some 3rd party's next gen plan"
TeamGhobad
Banned
do u have a direct sauce on this?
Its official coming from AMD :
AMD Unveils Radeon RX 5700, 5700XT: New Navi GPUs to Tackle Turing - ExtremeTech
AMD announced its Navi graphics cards and RDNA architecture at E3, with substantial improvements in both raw performance and performance per watt.
www.extremetech.com
So I made calculation what would 8TF Navi equal to based on the above, and its 13TF Vega (as XT is 14% faster then 13.7 Vega64).
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DemonCleaner
Member
two things people (wrongly) tend to do:
- grossly overestimate the importance of the CPU in 3d rendering
- converting IPC metrics from a PC to console environments
- grossly overestimate the importance of the CPU in 3d rendering
- converting IPC metrics from a PC to console environments
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THE:MILKMAN
Member
Fair enough I now get what you are saying. Still, since the RX 5700 reveal, it has been explained what the big RDNA changes have meant. I don't think there is any issue for the casuals because has noted above, neither Sony nor Microsoft will now talk TF directly.
LordOfChaos
Member
For part 1, that's only because in the PC space it's been a non issue on years old parts for targeting 60fps for a long time. The console space is coming from a very different place of shockingly low single core performance and only slightly less unimpressive aggregate.
TeamGhobad
Banned
i was having this argument with my cousin about pedestrian count and flow in games. i told him it was CPU based he said GPU. what are your thoughts on this?
ethomaz
Banned
Vega 64 is 12.58TFs and AMD perf/watt gains seems to be only due 16nm to 7nm.Its official coming from AMD :
AMD Unveils Radeon RX 5700, 5700XT: New Navi GPUs to Tackle Turing - ExtremeTech
AMD announced its Navi graphics cards and RDNA architecture at E3, with substantial improvements in both raw performance and performance per watt.
So I made calculation what would 8TF Navi equal to based on the above, and its 13TF Vega (as XT is 14% faster then 13.7 Vega64).
Said that we need to wait to see how it will compare.
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DemonCleaner
Member
yeah i think that's a CPU limitation. but it's a game logic limit and not a bottleneck of drawing capabilities.
Ovech-King
Member
Think what you wish but essentially the Scarlett reveal pretty much indirectly validated a few leaks so his informations then seems very on point regarding final specs . Nothing seems off to me .
Negotiator
Member
Ever since the IBM PC came out in the early 80s, PCs have always depended on having CPU grunt to do things. PC gamers are used to that kind of philosophy (brute-forcing problems, especially since during the 80s/90s Moore's Law offered sizable ST improvements).
Obviously this isn't the most efficient way of doing things. That's why Amiga came out in mid 80s with a 10-year old Motorola CPU and dedicated co-processors to handle multimedia tasks.
Consoles and smartphones tend to follow the Amiga philosophy, not the PC one (despite consoles being PC-based these days). They have lots of dedicated co-processors to handle graphics, audio, compression/decompression etc.
This used an old TeraScale GPU 10+ years ago. TeraScale is worse for compute vs GCN.
It depends on the game though. Games like GTAV probably don't use compute, they seem to lean heavily on the CPU side.
Back in the 7th gen era, compute wasn't a baseline feature (PS3 had Cell SPUs, but 360 had nothing like it). Even OG XB1 compute capabilities are not that good according to some devs (which has been vastly improved with Scorpio).
Personally, I expect a huge next-gen leap for GTA6 in terms of AI/NPC count and it won't just be because of the CPU.
TeamGhobad
Banned
I guess navi 10tflops looks small compared to midgen refreshes but compared to the base models its a HUGE improvement almost 9x for the XO-->Scarlett
Nothing seems off for you? Perhaps its 14TF Navi that is a bit off, as this would be 400mm² part with ~280W TDP (without Zen2 and memory controlers mind you)?
Its so of that it cannot be anymore of tbh. For me, only relevant technical leaks regarding PS5 are Gonzalo (QA sample tapped out in April) and OQA leak in May 21 from Reddit (Outgoing Quality Assurance).
Chip size and memory completely fit the picture, along with high clocks found in Gonzalo. PS5 will not have more then 9TF, probably closer to 8 tbh.
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DemonCleaner
Member
i don't want to be understood incorrectly on the second point. i've stated times and times again that i don't think the TFLOPs differntial between architectures compares from pc to console space. the IPC gains of around 25% AMD showed were on legacy software/games. i think this 25% will not materialize fully (not even close) in highly fixed hardware optimzed game code (as in naughty dog engines e.g.). there is a second component in the new RDNA pipeline design which will materialize just with new software which at this point isn't taken into account in the +25% IPC figure. that is that now two different types of instructions can be executed concurrently on one CU. this alone might bring enormous reduction in certain bottleneck situations (=IPC gains). i think both effects will somewhat mitigate each other.
Ovech-King
Member
I'm curious , how many GB of RAM do you see in the console to end up at only 8tf... which is lower than the new 5700xt at 8GB GDDR6?
Insane Metal
Member
Yup. Even Phil didn't say a word about TFs and we know how much he loves it. Lol
Sony and MS will follow AMD and just talk about how efficient, silent, powerful etc their systems are.
TeamGhobad
Banned
actually they did, they told us not to expect navi 12-13 tflops. and everyone is now depressed.
Kazekage1981
Member
I have a few more questions.
1) DF next gen xbox scarlett/ps5 spec analysis video stated that the next gen video game GPU will start off "roughly equivalent to 1080TI which is not bad" WTF????!!!! That's really lowballing it!
2) If scarlett and ps5 are gonna be released in 2020, why wont it have Wifi 6?!!
1) DF next gen xbox scarlett/ps5 spec analysis video stated that the next gen video game GPU will start off "roughly equivalent to 1080TI which is not bad" WTF????!!!! That's really lowballing it!
2) If scarlett and ps5 are gonna be released in 2020, why wont it have Wifi 6?!!
I se
Mind you, PS4s GPU had access to 8GB of RAM at 176 GB/s, more then Radeon 7870 at the time, with 40% less FLOPS. On top of that it also had 4x more memory available to GPU. So we might se 8.5TF Navi with 16GB at 512 GB/s in PS5/Scarlett
I see them going with 16GB at 512GB/s on 256 bit bus.
Mind you, PS4s GPU had access to 8GB of RAM at 176 GB/s, more then Radeon 7870 at the time, with 40% less FLOPS. On top of that it also had 4x more memory available to GPU. So we might se 8.5TF Navi with 16GB at 512 GB/s in PS5/Scarlett
nowhat
Gold Member
Terra means the Earth. And flop means a single rotation of the globe. So yes, it is very important to life on Earth - gaming, not so much.
TeamGhobad
Banned
why would they use 256bit bus after already having 384? if anything they would keep it.
LordOfChaos
Member
This has been less and less true as you yourself pointed out. Most of the co-processors listed also exist under PC, i.e TrueAudio, graphics, video encode/decode etc (general file compression is still handled in software on the 8th gen afaik). What does the 8th gen do in dedicated hardware that's left to brute force on PC at this point? Almost every single generation in a linear pattern has reduced its reliance on bespoke hardware. See PS2 - PS3 - PS4, the trend has marched towards generalized compute.
Anyways my point was, clearly Jaguar has been a big bottleneck on the 8th gen, so in response to the comment about overstating the importance of the CPU in 3D rendering, that's only been true on PC where the baseline has been way above Jaguar for years, it'll be an important jump in the console space.
Tera - Trillion
Flop - floating point operations per second
It's a short way of looking at a GPUs ballpark region, but it doesn't tell you everything about it by a long stretch, i.e how effectively those flops are put to use, other bottlenecks, etc.
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
The important thing to remember about "Terraflops" is that performance will vary depending on whether we're talking about a Monotheistic or Polytheistic die. Terraflops refers to Monotheistic performance, while Teraplots addresses Polytheistic die. Also, the presence of Kugo cores can impact the equation as well, for instance, when talking Kugoson-based GPUs.
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