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[Bo_Hazem]

Thanks for these, I will read through later.

Yes, I know Wi-Fi 6 has many benefits over just speed, such as cross comms, lower latency etc but the 2 biggest (wider bandwidth and multiple devices) seems mad to ignore.

They could still have a base and premium mode that uses the USB-C port into a Wi-Fi receiver on the Headset.

The BT 5.1 is another area to help tracking of controllers etc alongside the camera, the fact they would revert to a wired and full camera tracking (aside eyes inside the HMD) would be an odd choice IMOP.

That's great details! But the last part is a bit of mind fuckery for me. Did you see the PSVR2 patents that have 2 separate screens and pupil trackers? VRS might work with that, I guess.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Well I think £150 for 500GB is pretty good. Just wait for the competition to lower prices. Jump on one during sales

I don't know what the hurry is anyways... people itching to fill up their drives are weird to me.

 

[reksveks]

I know that the art style probably allows it to scale but damn 1800p60 and 1080p120 on the series s.

Ahh sorry i could have sworn it was said it's coming to PS4... so that's good then.

I would probably put money on it coming to ps4 buy no one knows anymore.

 

[aclar00]

Has anyone on here tried these in their media cabinets? If so, how well do they work and how loud are they? Looking to install on in my cabinet before the next gen is upon us to make sure I have great airflow throughout! I figured could plug it into the console's USB ports in the back so it is only powered on when the console is on.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009CNR0I6/?tag=neogaf0e-20

i used something similar with my OG launch 60GB ps3. I had it in a fairly tight spot and it wasnt getting enough air...actually used the same exact brand.

I attached them to the ps3 usb port and put them in the back of the ps3. I put one fan blowing cool air into the ps3 and then the other to help pull air out. They actually helped a lot. They stopped the PS3 internal fan from sounding like a jet engine.

Id recommend one, especially for tight spots that still get a decent amount of air. Cant speak for completely enclosed cabinets but im sure they would help.


Edit: This is what i used.

Amazon.com: AC Infinity MULTIFAN S5, Quiet Dual 80mm USB Fan, UL-Certified for Receiver DVR Playstation Xbox Computer Cabinet Cooling: Computers & Accessories

Buy AC Infinity MULTIFAN S5, Quiet Dual 80mm USB Fan, UL-Certified for Receiver DVR Playstation Xbox Computer Cabinet Cooling: Case Fans - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

I don't know what the hurry is anyways... people itching to fill up their drives are weird to me.

Same type of people that are going to waste hundreds on games at launch when they'll only have time to play 1 or 2 anyway

 

[Rea]

It's like they say they are going to offer PS4 BC with Boost Mode to improve our existing library and then they don't

When did They say?? They never confirm that you will get better resolution or better framerate. It's your imagination. Your fault.

 

[kyliethicc]

Well I'm unsure Sony can really "fix" anything with BC other than their own games. They don't have any sort of abstraction layer between the PS4 games and the hardware.

But yeah if a game is broken and popular it's likely to get a patch, especially anything with MTX lol

Notice how Sony says update to latest firmware in relation to backwards compatibility? I suspect they will add additional games with compatibility. I think Xbox has said they're doing something similar hence why the people trying xbox series x currently can't try every game yet.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Notice how Sony says update to latest firmware in relation to backwards compatibility? I suspect they will add additional games with compatibility. I think Xbox has said they're doing something similar hence why the people trying xbox series x currently can't try every game yet.

It's likely just that the dashboard will be smarter over time to tell you what is/isn't compatible.

XBox uses a virtualization layer to abstract away the hardware; they can inject "fixes" or "changes" into games without modifying game code. Sony doesn't have anything like that (more "to the metal" which has it's benefits.)

MS is basically using really light emulation sort of, Sony isn't.

edit: To be clear maybe there are some things Sony can do, it's why I said I'm unsure they can fix anything.. but I don't think they can, and they definitely use a very different setup than MS.

 

[Kerlurk]

Latency depends on the number of devices using that radio spectrum. This includes your own devices but also your neighbours devices if their router is on the same channel as yours.

Wi-Fi 6 increases the number of devices that can talk simultaneously in addition to reducing the wait time for other devices.

Wi-Fi 6 improves latency in a more crowded environment.

The problem is to truly the benefits of this, everything needs to be on Wi-Fi6. Having Wi-Fi5 devices on the network can hamper the improvements 6 brings to some extent.

Which is the reason every device coming out now should really be on 6. Especially if this device has a lifespan of the next 7-10 years. This is the reason I think the Xbox should have come with Wi-Fi6.

I don’t think Wi-Fi6 will be used for VR. As you mentioned the bandwidth isn’t there. It needed to be WiGig for that which isn’t in the PS5.

VR will most likely use that USBC port.

Oculus Quest 2 doesn't support streaming. It's doing on-device processing. In order to connect it to the computer you need Oculus Link, an optic fiber cable that allows you to play at 5 meters at most.
There's also the non-official virtual desktop and ALVR apps but those exhibit a lot of compression artifacts when playing something fast like beat saber.

The VIVE wireless adapter uses WiGig which works on the 60GHz band which is fastest and less congested than the 5GHz wifi 6 band. It has a real world performance of about 5Gbps which is more than double the expected 2Gbps Wifi 6.

If PSVR2 is wireless it will use WiGig, not Wifi6

Yes, it's understood that all speeds listed are maximum speeds and real world usage tends to be at most half the speed and lower.

Wi-Fi 6 (802.11ax) (2019) supports 600 to 2401 Mbps (or 75 MB/sec to 300 MB/sec)
USB 3.1 (Rev 2 or Gen 2) supports 10 Gbps (or 1.25 GB/sec)

Yes, the USC-C port on the front, and the two USB ports on the back, support max speeds that are at least 4 times faster than Wi-Fi 6.

WiGig supports up to 8 Gbps (or 1 GB/sec)

Note, that even if they go the route of [VR headset] <-wireless-> [WiGig] <-wire-> [USB-C], some form of compression would still need to be used, if they are beaming(?) (as opposed to video codec streaming) a game at or above 2560x1440x90fps, as the bandwidth of that resolution exceeds even the maximum speed of the USB-C port.

(2560 x 1440 x 32 bits per pixel (RGBA) / 8 (bits per byte) x 90 frames per second: 1,327,104,000 bytes per second or ~1.3 GB/sec.
(3840x 2160 x 32 bits per pixel (RGBA) / 8 (bits per byte) x 90 frames per second: 2,985,984,000 bytes per second or ~3 GB/sec.
And the above does not even account for HDR, which would be higher by calculating at 40 bits per pixel.

I expect a resolution similar to the Oculus Quest 2. Nearer to 4K than 1440p.

Sony has the technology to stream games, as they do now with PS Now, and by doing it locally, they remove internet latency issues, the main problem with that tech.

My guess they will offer a hybrid option, with the choice of plugging the headset into the USB-C port, which also supports power delivery, so everything can be done via one wire and a Wi-Fi 6 option allowing wireless VR play with probably 3 to 4 hours of gaming. It would allow plugging in the headset, when the battery gets low, and continue playing.

I think they can offer really good quality using H.264, and with the PS5 being able to encode the desktop/game at 4K at 90 fps 8/10 bits per pixel in real-time regardless of what the PS5 is doing is amazing compared to the PS4's lowly AVC1080p30. They can provide a much higher quality H.264 encode, as internet bandwidth issues do not have to be taken into account.

Sony will come out with something that should be very impressive. It will make VR more of an option for many people, and many games will have a VR option built in, as opposed to a specific VR edition being sold.

Interesting discussion.

 

[kyliethicc]

It's likely just that the dashboard will be smarter over time to tell you what is/isn't compatible.

XBox uses a virtualization layer to abstract away the hardware; they can inject "fixes" or "changes" into games without modifying game code. Sony doesn't have anything like that (more "to the metal" which has it's benefits.)

MS is basically using really light emulation sort of, Sony isn't.

edit: To be clear maybe there are some things Sony can do, it's why I said I'm unsure they can fix anything.. but I don't think they can, and they definitely use a very different setup than MS.

Are they really doing that for Xbox One games on new Xbox Series? I know they emulate for 360. And we don't really know any details on how Sony is doing their BC from a tech side yet do we?

Cause AMD made the SOCs for both current gen AMD X86 consoles, and for both next gen AMD X86 consoles, so I'm not why any of them would need to use emulation.

 

[Wraith Phantom]

OH shit they really putting load times. These guys are goofies. You know you are the slower box ,but you are still talking about speed. This worse than hyping tflops.

 

[Mr Moose]

https://boxden.com/showthread.php?t=2926995

 

[jasondefaoite]

Thanks for these, I will read through later.

Yes, I know Wi-Fi 6 has many benefits over just speed, such as cross comms, lower latency etc but the 2 biggest (wider bandwidth and multiple devices) seems mad to ignore.

They could still have a base and premium mode that uses the USB-C port into a Wi-Fi receiver on the Headset.

The BT 5.1 is another area to help tracking of controllers etc alongside the camera, the fact they would revert to a wired and full camera tracking (aside eyes inside the HMD) would be an odd choice IMOP.

In my opinion, all devices being release now that make use of Wi-Fi should be Wi-Fi 6. Even low cost IoT. Wi-Fi 6 is far more efficient with power and radio spectrum. However the efficiency on the spectrum portion degrades when you have other WiFi 5 devices on the network and your fancy WiFi6 router needs to switch back to support them. The sooner we are all on WiFi 6 the better. Given these consoles are going to be in use for the next 7-10 years, it's important they include WiFi6.

So the argument shouldn't be why did Sony include WiFi 6 if it's not for VR. The argument should be why didn't Microsoft include it.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Are they really doing that for Xbox One games on new Xbox Series? I know they emulate for 360. And we don't really know any details on how Sony is doing their BC from a tech side yet do we?

Cause AMD made the SOCs for both current gen AMD X86 consoles, and for both next gen AMD X86 consoles, so I'm not why any of them would need to use emulation.

It's not really emulation; it's virtualization which is similar but far faster. But even Xbox One games use virtualization on XBox One... one of the reasons for that was to prepare for XBox One games running in "BC" on XSX.

And yes they are definitely injecting similar enhancements to Xbox One games on XSX, and it's MS doing it, not 3rd party devs.. so they are using the virtualization technique again.

It's pretty obvious Sony isn't doing that.. they would have said something about it.. and they are expecting the PS4 versions of games to get patches for them to work on PS5.. meaning the code for the game itself, and not some virtualization layer patch.

 

[Lysandros]

Lol those benchmarks are taken from Komachi's leak, they're almost two years old and the data is very likely outdated just like Github was and neither of which represent the final revision of the chip/silicon.

The same leak also mentioned the Navi10Lite GPU and a 3.2 Ghz boost for the CPU, again which we already know are outdated for the PS5.

Okay, thanks a lot for the reply. So there is still a chance..

 

[Three Jackdaws]

Okay, thanks a lot for the reply. So there is still a chance..

Haha yeah, but I only share these kinda stuff because it's a speculation thread and it's fun to discuss this kinda stuff but as always it's always good to temper your expectations (I say that to myself as well).

 

[ethomaz]

Are they really using 13s as something impressive for load times?

 

[mejin]

wasn't this one the game which would have 8K/120fps no series X? Maybe I'm getting old.

 

[Codexer]

 

[Zathalus]

It's likely just that the dashboard will be smarter over time to tell you what is/isn't compatible.

XBox uses a virtualization layer to abstract away the hardware; they can inject "fixes" or "changes" into games without modifying game code. Sony doesn't have anything like that (more "to the metal" which has it's benefits.)

MS is basically using really light emulation sort of, Sony isn't.

edit: To be clear maybe there are some things Sony can do, it's why I said I'm unsure they can fix anything.. but I don't think they can, and they definitely use a very different setup than MS.

I'm not sure where the bolded parts come from for the Series X, but it's not true. Relevant part quoted below:

We have a SMASH driver model. The games on the binaries implement the hardware layed out data that the GPU eats directly - it's not a HAL layer abstraction. MS also re-writes the driver and smashes it together, we replace that and the firmware in the GPU. It's significantly more efficient than the PC.

 

[Mr Moose]

PS4 only games

While the majority of PS4 games are playable on PS5 consoles, below is a list of PS4 games that are playable on PS4 only. On PlayStation™Store, PS4 games that are not playable on the PS5 console will be marked with ‘Playable on: PS4 only’.

PS4 only games:
DWVR
Afro Samurai 2 Revenge of Kuma Volume One
TT Isle of Man - Ride on the Edge 2
Just Deal With It!
Shadow Complex Remastered
Robinson: The Journey
We Sing
Hitman Go: Definitive Edition
Shadwen
Joe's Diner

I haven't heard of most of these games.

 

[jose4gg]

Are they really using 13s as something impressive for load times?

"ItS NoT UsInG THe VEloCiTY ARchITECTure"

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Are they really using 13s as something impressive for load times?

But it's a back compat ga...

Oh wait nvm lmao

 

[Aceofspades]

wasn't this one the game which would have 8K/120fps no series X? Maybe I'm getting old.

Yup it was the one, apparently they confused 8k with 1800p lol

And THAT load time !!

Edit: This game running 1080p/60 on Xbox ONE S tells me everything about how demanding it is.

 

[IntentionalPun]

I'm not sure where the bolded parts come from for the Series X, but it's not true. Relevant part quoted below:

I'm talking about backwards compatability.

I wasn't talking about XSX games running on XSX..

 

[sandkiller]

And now we wait to see what the Game Hub looks like on PS5...

 

[Radical Dreamer]

I haven't heard of most of these games.

wtf you haven't heard of DWVR? or Joe's Diner? What planet are you living on

 

[Zathalus]

I'm talking about backwards compatability.

I wasn't talking about XSX games running on XSX..

Ah, my mistake then. Apologies for that, I've seen some posters throw around statements that the PS5 API is more to the metal then what the Xbox has and thus will have a performance advantage.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Ah, my mistake then. Apologies for that, I've seen some posters throw around statements that the PS5 API is more to the metal then what the Xbox has and thus will have a performance advantage.

Well that is how it worked on Xbox One. All games ran through a virtualization layer, it's how they did SNAP and all that.

Wasn't sure if they went with the same approach on XSX for actual XSX games.. sounds like they didn't from that info yo linked, interesting stuff!

But it's fairly certain Xbox One / Xbox 360 games running in BC would use virtualization. Otherwise it would be incredibly difficult for MS to do their upgrade patches and enhancements and all that.

 

[Entroyp]

OH shit they really putting load times. These guys are goofies. You know your slower box but you are still talking about speed. This worse than hyping tflops.

The real question is why are they parroting a 13 second load time? Isn’t that way above the required time to fill RAM? That’s interesting.

 

[Metroiddarks]

No baiting or garbage posts!!!!

Have you guys considered making the primary topics for each platform (the consoles, PC) sticky. It would make it easier to see when those threads have been updated from the main page. I can understand users wanting this thread to be purely news/speculation related without all the nonsense from users that don't contribute in meaningful areas. As it is now, this thread is just easier to engage with since it is always near the top of the main page.

I personally prefer the conflict above the fanboyism without control like the other forum where
you cant say nothing bad unless a moderator be your 'friend".

So the limit in loading a BC game is the CPU in many cases.

I mean is good but is not enough to spend money in a new console, we are few weeks from the release of
the console I want to see the new games running not some old games in the platform with less sales in this
moment because any average user will start now buying games of current gen just because load fast or have
better framerate.

 

[kyliethicc]

It's not really emulation; it's virtualization which is similar but far faster. But even Xbox One games use virtualization on XBox One... one of the reasons for that was to prepare for XBox One games running in "BC" on XSX.

And yes they are definitely injecting similar enhancements to Xbox One games on XSX, and it's MS doing it, not 3rd party devs.. so they are using the virtualization technique again.

It's pretty obvious Sony isn't doing that.. they would have said something about it.. and they are expecting the PS4 versions of games to get patches for them to work on PS5.. meaning the code for the game itself, and not some virtualization layer patch.

I don't know where you're getting all that info?

 

[Lysandros]

13 Seconds while using the 'Velocity Architecture' this time? Isn't it a bit.. slow for that type of game?

 

[Metroiddarks]

13 Seconds while using the 'Velocity Architecture' this time? Isn't it a bit.. slow for that type of game?

Is slow for this "level of graphics" but is an indie releasing something crossgen, only the last one is a miracle.

 

[Rea]

Are they really using 13s as something impressive for load times?

The game looks like a Mobile game, and they are so proud of 4k 60 or 1800p 120, 13s load time.

 

[Wraith Phantom]

The real question is why are they parroting a 13 second load time? Isn’t that way above the required time to fill RAM? That’s interesting.

Split ram at that. They do it to themselves. All you had to do was talk about the game.But out here doing powerpoint docs. Some times I wonder is it console warriors doing their marketing. Just show the game running.SMH.

 

[PSX]

The website is up there are lists won't be compatible with PS5.

DWVR
Afro Samurai 2 Revenge of Kuma Volume One
TT Isle of Man - Ride on the Edge 2
Just Deal With It!
Shadow Complex Remastered
Robinson: The Journey
We Sing
Hitman Go: Definitive Edition
Shadwen
Joe's Diner

Backward compatibility: PlayStation 4 games playable on PlayStation 5

PlayStation® Official Site: Consoles, Games, Accessories & More

Explore the new generation PlayStation 4 and PS5 consoles - experience immersive gaming with thousands of hit games in every genre to rewrite the rules for what a PlayStation console can do.

support.playstation.com

 

[Lysandros]

Is slow for this "level of graphics" but is an indie releasing something crossgen, only the last one is a miracle.

Sure the game itself looks interesting.

 

[thebigmanjosh]

Notice how Sony says update to latest firmware in relation to backwards compatibility? I suspect they will add additional games with compatibility. I think Xbox has said they're doing something similar hence why the people trying xbox series x currently can't try every game yet.

Yeah I would imagine there are probably profiles built into the system for popular, tested games that will get boost updates via firmware as time goes on.

 

[ethomaz]

Notice how Sony says update to latest firmware in relation to backwards compatibility? I suspect they will add additional games with compatibility. I think Xbox has said they're doing something similar hence why the people trying xbox series x currently can't try every game yet.

They need firmware updates to add games that run in Boost Mode yes.
The firmware probably has a list of which games works for all three modes and that list needs to be updated.

 

[IntentionalPun]

I don't know where you're getting all that info?

The fact Xbox One runs in a hypervisor is just common knowledge. Same with how they inject enhancements into Xbox 360 games on Xbox One through virtualization / emulation. They use a bare metal hypervisor, so XBox One games are really close to the hardware, but still run through a virtualization layer essentially embedded in the hardware.

I'm speculating on how BC works on Xbox Series X, but it's based on how things worked in the past. Sony has never used that approach so there really isn't any reason to believe they would start with PS5.

To be clear I could be totally wrong about BC on Xbox Series X.. my point is though that virtualization doesn't JUST allow you to emulate hardware that doesn't exist, it also enables this enhancement technique MS uses.. so even if there's no hardware to emulate (unknown) the use of virtualization is likely due to stuff like the auto-HDR thing.

 

[Riky]

Microsoft have said that the latency update for Series controllers will also come to Xbox One controllers.

Nice to see a Series S game running at 1800p even if it isn't graphically intensive, at least they have pushed it as far as they can and 120fps is great.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Did something happen during the video or is it my imagination ?

before

after

I think it's a stain of them pulling it off as it needs some degree to be solid, but it's 100% safe as the gasket extends upwards.

 

[jasondefaoite]

Yes, it's understood that all speeds listed are maximum speeds and real world usage tends to be at most half the speed and lower.

Wi-Fi 6 (802.11ax) (2019) supports 600 to 2401 Mbps (or 75 MB/sec to 300 MB/sec)
USB 3.1 (Rev 2 or Gen 2) supports 10 Gbps (or 1.25 GB/sec)

Yes, the USC-C port on the front, and the two USB ports on the back, support max speeds that are at least 4 times faster than Wi-Fi 6.

WiGig supports up to 1 Gbps (or 1 GB/sec)

It would be interesting to see, what is the cost difference over a Wi-Fi 6 option.

Note, that even if they go the route of [VR headset] <-wireless-> [WiGig] <-wire-> [USB-C], some form of compression would still need to be used, if they are beaming(?) (as opposed to video codec streaming) a game at or above 2560x1440x90fps, as the bandwidth of that resolution exceeds even the maximum speed of the USB-C port.

(2560 x 1440 x 32 bits per pixel (RGBA) / 8 (bits per byte) x 90 frames per second: 1,327,104,000 bytes per second or ~1.3 GB/sec.
(3840x 2160 x 32 bits per pixel (RGBA) / 8 (bits per byte) x 90 frames per second: 2,985,984,000 bytes per second or ~3 GB/sec.
And the above does not even account for HDR, which would be higher by calculating at 40 bits per pixel.

...

Interesting discussion.

You are using the bandwidth of the USB data bus to compare to various bandwidth requirements for video. However, remember TypeC can also support DisplayPort in alternate mode, not just a USB data bus.

Now, being honest here, I don't know anything on this personally, but reading it appears TypeC can have different versions of alternative mode, where more wires of the cable are given over to the DisplayPort signals. A 4 lane alternative mode allows for full DP v1.3, with an effective data rate of ~ 26 Gbps. This provides enough bandwidth for 4K at 8bit color and 120Hz.

You are right, if any wireless link is involved, compression must be used.

 

[NXGamer]

In my opinion, all devices being release now that make use of Wi-Fi should be Wi-Fi 6. Even low cost IoT. Wi-Fi 6 is far more efficient with power and radio spectrum. However the efficiency on the spectrum portion degrades when you have other WiFi 5 devices on the network and your fancy WiFi6 router needs to switch back to support them. The sooner we are all on WiFi 6 the better. Given these consoles are going to be in use for the next 7-10 years, it's important they include WiFi6.

So the argument shouldn't be why did Sony include WiFi 6 if it's not for VR. The arguement should be why didn't Microsoft include it.

I agree with that, you have to move on a some point. Maybe Sony just saw the benefit of options later down the line as based on the PS4 they have added in much more future proof specs on this, the amount of SuperSpeed USB.

Gimping on antennas is odd, especially when no matter what that use for Wi_fi it will be compressed and the PS5 has been designed around that from the get go.

USB-C does appear to answer all that with a dongle and the DP options.

 

[Aceofspades]

MS advertised 40x times the I/O output on next gen console. This only achieved 3.4x improvement. Seems like there is a bottleneck somewhere.

This game should have loaded in 1.3 Seconds on Series X|S

 

[saintjules]

It really looks kinda fun. I wonder if they've tightened up the controls to be more in line with a typical 3d platformer vs the LBP games. I've always hated how floaty the controls in LBP games felt.

I think they made Sackboy more grounded in terms of the control. Thought I read something like that somewhere, but not entirely sure..

Maybe the feeling of the controls resembles something like Mario Galaxy or w/e?

 

[Axonometri]

Well it has become obvious that if you desire to have it all with new PS5 games, you will need the digital deluxe versions. I have not seen one peep of pre order bonus or deluxe discs. prove me wrong please

 

[travisktl]

MS advertised 40x times the I/O output on next gen console. This only achieved 3.4x improvement. Seems like there is a bottleneck somewhere.

This game should have loaded in 1.3 Seconds on Series X|S

This whole time it's felt like Xbox is equivalent to someone that put a bunch of time and money into building a motor on a car and brags about the horsepower numbers, just to completely disregard the drivetrain, suspension and tires. Whereas the PS5 is like someone that didn't go as hard on the horsepower, but upgraded every component on their car along with the motor, which allows them to put all of the power down and actually use it....we haven't seen proper Series X games yet, but it still feels that way to me.

 

[jasondefaoite]

I agree with that, you have to move on a some point. Maybe Sony just saw the benefit of options later down the line as based on the PS4 they have added in much more future proof specs on this, the amount of SuperSpeed USB.

Gimping on antennas is odd, especially when no matter what that use for Wi_fi it will be compressed and the PS5 has been designed around that from the get go.

USB-C does appear to answer all that with a dongle and the DP options.

But did they really gimp on the antennas? Let's assume the Wi-Fi is not used for PSVR, a 2x2 at 80MHz bandwidth will give real world performance in the region of 800Mbps. That's plenty fast for internet and also streaming from the device.

Edit: snip. I've said enough about Xbox.