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[ethomaz]

Of course they are.

What a stupid discussion.

It is not imo when you are not 100% RDNA like the PR marketing says and the low clocks doesn't support it.
It is a very reasonable question.

He still avoid the fully RDNA 2 PR when it was already found RDNA and even old parts in Series X silicon.

 

[Insane Metal]

It is not imo when you are not 100% RDNA like the PR marketing says and the low clocks doesn't support it.
It is a very reasonable question.

He still avoid the fully RDNA 2 PR when it was already found RDNA and even old parts in Series X silicon.

So PS5 isn't RDNA2 because it doesn't support HW VRS or Mesh Shaders? Or SFS? It's a useless discussion. Both consoles were custom made. They have their own compromises and both are RDNA2 based. Period.

 

[ethomaz]

So PS5 isn't RDNA2 because it doesn't support HW VRS or Mesh Shaders? Or SFS? It's a useless discussion. Both consoles were custom made. They have their own compromises and both are RDNA2 based. Period.

Both are based in RDNA2... I never said the opposite.
Both have parts that are not RDNA2.
PS5 lacks VRS hardware because the Render Backend is RDNA.

 

[chilichote]

Guys, take a break^^

(33) NASA Live: Official Stream of NASA TV - YouTube

 

[Hashi]

People.. you write about VRS, mesh shaders, SFS and other stuff but you forgot that PS5 has shown two most advanced engines in the world - Decima (HFW) and UE5. In UE5 there was real-time full resolution Mesh Shading and lighting. Why do you need "Mesh Shaders" when PS5 shown how to nice shade - a - mesh (geometry).

The most advance feature at now is ultra fast streaming assets. Imagine Horizon Zero Dawn with 10x times more details on camera view...

Guys, take a break^^

(33) NASA Live: Official Stream of NASA TV - YouTube

Nice.

 

[SportsFan581]

It is not imo when you are not 100% RDNA like the PR marketing says and the low clocks doesn't support it.
It is a very reasonable question.

He still avoid the fully RDNA 2 PR when it was already found RDNA and even old parts in Series X silicon.

Isn't the game clock on the RX6800 1815mhz. And we know MS wasn't interested in variable/boost clocks so they had to pick a value they could guarantee. Plus the XSX is built in a very low volume package, so that figures in as well.

 

[Lysandros]

Both are based in RDNA2... I never said the opposite.
Both have parts that are not RDNA2.
PS5 lacks VRS hardware because the Render Backend is RDNA.

So what's your take on int4/int8 support you think PS5 also lacks it on top of not having hardware VRS and SFS?..

 

[kyliethicc]

Isn't the game clock on the RX6800 1815mhz. And we know MS wasn't interested in variable/boost clocks so they had to pick a value they could guarantee. Plus the XSX is built in a very low volume package, so that figures in as well.

Keep in mind the clocks and CUs on the 6800 are arbitrary. Its done for market segmentation. (It lets them salvage the chips that don't yield as well, etc.)The 6900XT and 6800XT are 80 and 72 CUs clocked at 2.0 GHz game, 2.25 GHz boost. And can even run faster than that.

For example, Gamers Nexus Tech Jesus guy had the 6800 XT running 72 CUs at around 2.35 GHz for 25 mins.

Nothing would stop the 60 CU 6800 card from hitting the same clocks, but then it would perform better and remove some reason to buy the higher priced cards. AMD clearly wanted easy to market TDP figures of 300 W and 250 W, they could have set higher stock clock speeds. And plenty of people have overclocked the cards to even higher clocks.

Of course consoles have thermal limits, I'm not saying XSX should be running at 2.2 GHz.
Just that its totally possible for RDNA2 GPUs to run 60-80 CUs at 2.2-2.35 GHz.

 

[SportsFan581]

Keep in mind the clocks and CUs on the 6800 are arbitrary. Its done for market segmentation. (It lets them salvage the chips that don't yield as well, etc.)

The 6900XT and 6800XT are 80 and 72 CUs clocked at 2.0 GHz game, 2.25 GHz boost. And can even run faster than that.

Nothing would stop the 60 CU 6800 card from hitting the same clocks, but then it would perform better and remove some reason to buy the higher priced cards. AMD clearly wanted easy to market TDP figures of 300 W and 250 W, they could have set higher stock clock speeds.

And plenty of people have overclocked the cards to even higher clocks.

And you think you can do that in a box the size of the XSX? On a 315w power supply?

The numbers are perfectly in line with RDNA2 given the TDP and Cooling restraints.

 

[kyliethicc]

And you think you can do that in a box the size of the XSX? On a 315w power supply?

The numbers are perfectly in line with RDNA2 given the TDP and Cooling restraints.

Nope never said that. I was talking about what you said about the 6800 card.

 

[ethomaz]

So what's your take on int4/int8 support you think PS5 also lacks it on top of not having hardware VRS and SFS?..

I believe these supports were already confirmed.

 

[SportsFan581]

Nope never said that. I was talking about what you said about the 6800 card.

With unlimited power and no limit on the size of the system, you can do a lot of things. At the advertised TDP, AMD isn't offering more than 1815mhz on the game clock, with the potential to boost on the 6800.

 

[Lunatic_Gamer]

 

[assurdum]

Bigger doesn't always mean better. I think the differences are that one uses Primitives and the other uses Mesh in their engines.

Never said that. Still don't get it what Leviathan talking about, it's bizzarre read both GE are basically the same because it's blatantly obviously to me from the SOC image, they are not but maybe I misinterpreting what really mean.

 

[kyliethicc]

With unlimited power and no limit on the size of the system, you can do a lot of things. At the advertised TDP, AMD isn't offering more than 1815mhz on the game clock, with the potential to boost on the 6800.

Exactly. They arbitrarily picked a limit for that card in order to have clear segmentation in their 6000 series graphics line.

There is nothing stopping RDNA2 GPUs with even 80 CUs to hit 2.2+ GHz. The architecture can do it.

Of course consoles have to be limited by their size, cooling, and power supply.

But the 6800 is literally held back by AMD on purpose to make the 6800 XT look better in bechmarks.

 

[Lysandros]

I believe these supports were already confirmed.

For INT4/INT8, by Sony? I couldn't remember it to be so.. The thing is.. since PS5 seems to miss quite a few features, i want to go to the bottom of it. I want PS5 to be as featureless as possible, then i'll go for a drink with Alyx.

 

[ethomaz]

For INT4/INT8, by Sony? I couldn't remember it to be so.. The thing is.. since PS5 seems to miss quite a few features, i want to go to the bottom of it. I want PS5 to be as featureless as possible, then i'll go for a drink with Alyx.

Not by Sony.
Yesterday by the RDNA 1.1 vs RDNA 2.0 talk... PS5 is based in that RDNA that support all the precision and integers of RDNA 2.0.

 

[SportsFan581]

Exactly. They arbitrarily picked a limit for that card in order to have clear segmentation in their 6000 series graphics line.

There is nothing stopping RDNA2 GPUs with even 80 CUs to hit 2.2+ GHz. The architecture can do it.

Of course consoles have to be limited by their size, cooling, and power supply.

But the 6800 is literally held back by AMD on purpose to make the 6800 XT look better in bechmarks.

But it still is a good benchmark of where the architecture is at in this TDP window. The 6700 is rumored to have a higher clock in the same tdp window, possible because the active transistor count is lower.

The console venders basically had the choice to go smaller with a higher clock or bigger with a more modest one, obviously we know who picked what. But both are in line with RDNA2 clocks at a supportable TDP.

 

[DemonCleaner]

And you think you can do that in a box the size of the XSX? On a 315w power supply?

The numbers are perfectly in line with RDNA2 given the TDP and Cooling restraints.

im pretty sure i could do this even in a smallish formfactor PC with a 315W power supply (TDP max on XSX is probably just around 220W though).

here are my OC results for the rx 6800 (60CUs):

 

[SportsFan581]

im pretty sure i could do this even in a smallish formfactor PC with a 315W power supply (TDP max on XSX is probably just around 220W though).

here are my OC results for the rx 6800 (60CUs):

You probably don't realize how much you've increased the power and heat output there. As soon as either became a problem, you'd watch that clock disappear. The console manufactures would like some longevity with the parts too. LOL

 

[ethomaz]

Lysandros

 

[Lysandros]

Lysandros

Indeed Ethomaz it seems to be so, thanks friend.

 

[DemonCleaner]

You probably don't realize how much you've increased the power and heat output there. As soon as either became a problem, you'd watch that clock disappear. The console manufactures would like some longevity with the parts too. LOL

i do, that's why i provided you the power graph



in a hypothetical 325W TDP console (which i want to stress XSX is not) and with infinity cache that would have been no problem.

 

[SportsFan581]

i do, that's why i provided you the power graph



in a hypothetical 325W TDP console (which i want to stress XSX is not) and with infinity cache that would have been no problem.

What was your CPU power draw? Your memory? Your SSD? etc.

We aren't talking about imaginary consoles though. The XSX has a 315w PSU and does need to power the other system components along with APU, and obviously they aren't going to push the PSU to 100%. Even if you bump the PSU to 350w your overclock would be impossible (Dirt5 isn't a big drawer of power on the new consoles, try CoD).

 

[SlimySnake]

im pretty sure i could do this even in a smallish formfactor PC with a 315W power supply (TDP max on XSX is probably just around 220W though).

here are my OC results for the rx 6800 (60CUs):

Were your in game FPS gains proportional to the gpu clocks? At 2.14ghz, thats a 16.4 tflops GPU. At 2.44 ghz, it's 18.7 ghz. Thats 14% more tflops. I remember from your simulating gonzalo results, the performance did not scale linearly as you increased clocks on the RDNA 1.0 GPUs beyond the 1.8 ghz sweet spot, is the same true for RDNA 2.0 cards?

 

[SlimySnake]

here's to all the fallen heroes...

Oh they were warriors, but I wouldnt call them heroes lol

 

[Lunatic_Gamer]

The Sinking City Runs at 4K and 60 FPS On PS5, Will Support DualSense Controller​

The Sinking City is getting an upgrade for the PS5. This has been leaked through a listing of the game on the New Zealand PlayStation Store.

– Native 3840×2160 resolution (4K)
– 60 frames per second
– Improved graphical fidelity
– Significantly faster loading times
– DualSense features support.

The Sinking City Runs at 4K and 60 FPS On PS5, Will Support DualSense Controller

The Sinking City is getting an upgrade for the PS5. This has been leaked through a listing of the game on the New Zealand PlayStation Store.

twistedvoxel.com

 

[DemonCleaner]

We aren't talking about imaginary consoles though. The XSX has a 315w PSU and does need to power the other system components along with APU, and obviously they aren't going to push the PSU to 100%. Even if you bump the PSU to 350w your overclock would be impossible (Dirt5 isn't a big drawer of power on the new consoles, try CoD).

i garantee you my overclock would not be impossible with a 350W quality PSU even in a PC (which has bigger aux power needs than a console). the issue would be to build a 350W TDP console with budget constraints for a sufficient heat transfer in a small form factor

that said i want to remind that you were not talking about my ~2.5 Ghz OC:

With unlimited power and no limit on the size of the system, you can do a lot of things. At the advertised TDP, AMD isn't offering more than 1815mhz on the game clock, with the potential to boost on the 6800.

btw: every game is "a big drawer if power" when you run uncaped and fully GPU-bound (ultra 4k)

 

[SportsFan581]

that said i want to remind that you were not talking about my ~2.5 Ghz OC:

And what part of that statement do you find incorrect? If you don't care about the power you use or the heat that results you can clock higher, certainly.

With the 6800 AMD was trying to get a part with a lower TBP, so that figures in (along with the market segmentation). They also have to figure in the cost of cooling for their AIBs, and so on.

btw: every game is "a big drawer if power" when you run uncaped and fully GPU-bound (ultra 4k)

I'll give you that one.

 

[DemonCleaner]

Were your in game FPS gains proportional to the gpu clocks? At 2.14ghz, thats a 16.4 tflops GPU. At 2.44 ghz, it's 18.7 ghz. Thats 14% more tflops. I remember from your simulating gonzalo results, the performance did not scale linearly as you increased clocks on the RDNA 1.0 GPUs beyond the 1.8 ghz sweet spot, is the same true for RDNA 2.0 cards?

DIRT 5 actually scaled pretty much perfectly:

that said, most games absolutely do not. especially not when you can produce such massive gains.

 

[DemonCleaner]

What was your CPU power draw? Your memory? Your SSD? etc.

We aren't talking about imaginary consoles though. The XSX has a 315w PSU and does need to power the other system components along with APU, and obviously they aren't going to push the PSU to 100%. Even if you bump the PSU to 350w your overclock would be impossible (Dirt5 isn't a big drawer of power on the new consoles, try CoD).

CPU power draw can be pretty minimal if you do what the consoles do and restrict the clockspeeds and volt apropriately.

if you're really interested in a full power balance i recommand you to at least read the (edited) first two posts in here Simulating Gonzalo (Rumoured NextGen/PS5 leak) | NeoGAF
reading the whole thread would not hurt either because you can better track the methodoligy.

i also documented the full power draw on the AC side (from the wall) regarding the PSU discussion.

 

[SportsFan581]

CPU power draw can be pretty minimal if you do what the consoles do and restrict the clockspeeds and volt apropriately.

if you're really interested in a full power balance i recommand you to at least read the (edited) first two posts in here Simulating Gonzalo (Rumoured NextGen/PS5 leak) | NeoGAF
reading the whole thread would not hurt either because you can better track the methodoligy.

i also documented the full power draw on the AC side (from the wall) regarding the PSU discussion.

I'm not really interested, no.

I don't build PCs often. When I do, I certainly never try to use the tiniest PSU etc. I guess it would be an interesting experiment though.

 

[LiquidRex]

Hey everyone, I ain't going to lie to you all I'm pissed as a fart... however maybe what I'm going to say is worthy of a new thread ... Now with all the mining that's going on, what if for example there was a game say Star Trek or Star Citizen where you entered a virtual academy passed a shit load of tests, then was assigned to a virtual Star Ship, or Space Station, or Planet and worked shifts as a form of mining an thus earned real world money .

 

[Great Hair]

Hey everyone, I ain't going to lie to you all I'm pissed as a fart... however maybe what I'm going to say is worthy of a new thread ... Now with all the mining that's going on, what if for example there was a game say Star Trek or Star Citizen where you entered a virtual academy passed a shit load of tests, then was assigned to a virtual Star Ship, or Space Station, or Planet and worked shifts as a form of mining an thus earned real world money .

WAAT? Can i have a hot dog stand in space and show off my capoeira skills?

 

[Shmunter]

Yea but the Xbox update has textures for both the Series X and Series S......

Is that what’s referred to as Smart Delivery (TM)?

 

[MasterCornholio]

Is that what they call Smart Delivery (TM)?

Not exactly. Smart delivery is supposed to only download what's needed for the platform.

With that said I have no idea why the Xbox is downloading the textures for both platforms.

 

[PaintTinJr]

But it still is a good benchmark of where the architecture is at in this TDP window. The 6700 is rumored to have a higher clock in the same tdp window, possible because the active transistor count is lower.

The console venders basically had the choice to go smaller with a higher clock or bigger with a more modest one, obviously we know who picked what. But both are in line with RDNA2 clocks at a supportable TDP.

I think that's disingenuous to make that assertion also about the PS5, because it insinuates what Cerny declared a paradigm shift as a lie with the pre-emptive, deterministic continuous boost clocking.

The PS5 is different because it has clocks that don't fit with power efficiency, and performance choices on offer for vanilla RDNA2. The XsX on the other hand does fit that profile, likeyou say, other than it is significantly better value than PC RDNA2 - assuming the tools catch up and the lack of infinity cache or high clock don't make a bigger difference that console optimisation in the next 3years.

 

[SportsFan581]

Not exactly. Smart delivery is supposed to only download what's needed for the platform.

With that said I have no idea why the Xbox is downloading the textures for both platforms.

What is the install size for the systems after the patch is installed? That's what matters (might be the same difference, I have no idea). But the size of the patch itself doesn't matter all that much, it's possible that more is being overwritten on the Xbox than PS, indicating that more changes were potentially made, etc.

 

[SportsFan581]

I think that's disingenuous to make that assertion also about the PS5, because it insinuates what Cerny declared a paradigm shift as a lie with the pre-emptive, deterministic continuous boost clocking.

The PS5 is different because it has clocks that don't fit with power efficiency, and performance choices on offer for vanilla RDNA2. The XsX on the other hand does fit that profile, likeyou say, other than it is significantly better value than PC RDNA2 - assuming the tools catch up and the lack of infinity cache or high clock don't make a bigger difference that console optimisation in the next 3years.

I was just talking about the clocks and the notion that Xbox couldn't be RDNA2 because it is a bit behind the peak on desktop. Which will be a funny argument if/when the PS5 is also behind the clocks of the 6700 (a part of a similar size GPU wise).

It's a silly argument anyway since the XSS has the same architecture as the XSX and has even lower clocks. Clearly the formfactor, specifically the size and cost of cooling, went a long way in deciding these numbers.

 

[MasterCornholio]

What is the install size for the systems after the patch is installed? That's what matters (might be the same difference, I have no idea). But the size of the patch itself doesn't matter all that much, it's possible that more is being overwritten on the Xbox than PS, indicating that more changes were potentially made, etc.

No idea but the patch is a lot bigger than the one on the PS5.

 

[Shmunter]

The Sinking City Runs at 4K and 60 FPS On PS5, Will Support DualSense Controller​

– Native 3840×2160 resolution (4K)
– 60 frames per second
– Improved graphical fidelity
– Significantly faster loading times
– DualSense features support.

The Sinking City Runs at 4K and 60 FPS On PS5, Will Support DualSense Controller

The Sinking City is getting an upgrade for the PS5. This has been leaked through a listing of the game on the New Zealand PlayStation Store.

twistedvoxel.com

I’ve had this in the back of my mind for a long time. Is the game any good?

 

[oldergamer]

Spencer's Era...he's the first to embrace fully MS' MO. Lies, deceptions, confusion...if you can't win just destroy what exists to "rebuild".

You guys and. Your victim complex is annoying.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

You guys and. Your victim complex is annoying.

Pot kettle black

 

[Zadom]

You guys and. Your victim complex is annoying.

 

[BoxFresh123]

Sesame Street brought to you by the letters R, D, N, A

 

[kyliethicc]

I was just talking about the clocks and the notion that Xbox couldn't be RDNA2 because it is a bit behind the peak on desktop. Which will be a funny argument if/when the PS5 is also behind the clocks of the 6700 (a part of a similar size GPU wise).

It's a silly argument anyway since the XSS has the same architecture as the XSX and has even lower clocks. Clearly the formfactor, specifically the size and cost of cooling, went a long way in deciding these numbers.

Xbox literally picked the clock speeds for the XSX & XSS GPUs in order to have 12 TF and 4 TF.

Phil said the goal for XSX was 6x2 = 12 TF. The 52 CUs was set by the dual design on the chip. 14x4=56-4=52 CUs.

In 2017, Xbox picked the exact GPU clock they needed on XOX for 6.0 TF. And then for XSX XSS again, they just did the math - "what clocks do we need to hit our TF goal with our CU counts?"

for XOX
1.172 GHz x 40 CUs = 6.0 TF

for XSS
1.565 GHz x 20 CUs = 4.0 TF

but...

for XSX
1.80 GHz x 52 CUs = 11.98 TF ... thats not quite 12.0 TF

.. so they had to go up a bit to 1.825 GHz. Why not. 12.1? fine.

Xbox could have easily set higher clocks on all 3 systems. How much? Who knows. They didn't care. They got to their simple TF goals and locked it.

 

[SportsFan581]

@ kyliethicc they do seem to like hitting specific numbers. But there are still different ways to get there. They could have gone with fewer CUs and higher clocks or more CUs and lower clocks.

Any way you look at it, higher clocks would have probably required bigger boxes (or noisier ones), assuming TF numbers ended up higher.

 

[Doncabesa]

It is not imo when you are not 100% RDNA like the PR marketing says and the low clocks doesn't support it.
It is a very reasonable question.

He still avoid the fully RDNA 2 PR when it was already found RDNA and even old parts in Series X silicon.

This has been a fun night, you're persistent to say the least.

 

[Elog]

@ kyliethicc they do seem to like hitting specific numbers. But there are still different ways to get there. They could have gone with fewer CUs and higher clocks or more CUs and lower clocks.

Any way you look at it, higher clocks would have probably required bigger boxes (or noisier ones), assuming TF numbers ended up higher.

They had a second design goal though - to be a server blade with 4 Xbox One instances, i.e. they needed 4 shader arrays. The CU count is very much a result of that design criteria just like the dual memory speed set-up (that is only there since the server blade has 20 GB with the same memory controllers, i.e. one memory speed).

 

[MonarchJT]

Geometry engine ..the same? Isn't it the ps5 geometry engine hardware quite bigger in size than the series X?Or I remember wrong?

size is a thing function another, he is talking about functions..Locuza is saying the same