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[assurdum]

Yeah when done properly it can look good, GoW and Horizon look great (though DoF can look a bit shitty).

I have to disagree. Horizon is still software and with the same limits of Marvel's Avengers CBR. It works just with solid geometry but with fine details, it's a jaggies mess. Luckily Horizon is quite dense so it's noticeable just in some spots (differently to Death Stranding which shows all the deficiency of this CBR).
You know what is it really good and barely appreciated imo? The Witcher 3 CBR. Replayed it I'm still amazed about it. I heard many people complain about the CBR because vegetation is more aliased and so on, but I noticed at 1080p showed more or less the same problematic; obviously at 4k CBR is more pronounced.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Wait. There are game engines with actual garbage collection? I had just assumed that most were in C/C++ for perf reasons and we're not subject to GC (even if they use workarounds to similar effect).

Relatedly, I think it'd be cool to see a game engine written in Rust.

Yeah Unity is all .Net Mono project (not bound to Windows kernel, runs on Windows/Linux.)

So you can code it in C#.

 

[Mr Moose]

I have to disagree. Horizon is still software and with the same limits of Marvel's Avengers CBR. It works just with solid geometry but with fine details, it's a jaggies mess. Luckily Horizon is quite dense so it's noticeable just in some spots (differently to Death Stranding which shows all the deficiency of this CBR).

I thought the use of CB in Horizon was pretty good though it has been a while since I have played it, I just remember DoF being kinda shitty behind the character in cutscenes.

 

[assurdum]

I thought the use of CB in Horizon was pretty good though it has been a while since I have played it, I just remember DoF being kinda shitty behind the character in cutscenes.

I played it lately. It's definitely very aliased in fine details, I noticed it immediately.

 

[M1chl]

Ear peachfuzz, now we're talking next gen.

GSC Game World > Your favorite dev

 

[Vagos48]

Not absolutely. Quality mode uses dynamic native output on ps5 too. Nixxes clearly thought temporal higher pixels density was better than the native one at lower resolution, but if the same NXG notices 1440p native is still sharper than their 4k CBR solutions, it would seems they haven't checked using their owns eyes imo.

They had fixed 1080p @ 60 and 2160 CBR @ 30 for PS4 pro. They went with DRS 2160 for the 30 fps mode and just unlocked the framerate in the CBR mode. Maybe it was too much work to go from 1080p @ 30 to 2160p DRS @ 60

 

[funking giblet]

Unity biggest issue seems to (have been)/be when the .Net runtime does gc, it can cause framerate issues. Most games seems to work around that by pre-allocating the data and reusing existing allocated data and classes, thus avoiding gc hits.

Avoiding allocations at all is how you manage garbage collection, all you would be doing is using statics / singletons and using all the memory (and gc would still occur, unless you preserve all memory in a scene.. in the next one). Moving to value-object based design and immutable data / functions would be the first port of call. There really isn't much stopping you writing code similar to C++ in C# if you manage your data structures and leverage value types + immutability. C#9 is actually fantastic for this. Unity just made bad choices / didn't have the tools at the time.

 

[Mahavastu]

Can the PS5 lack the hardware custom added to CBR found in PS4 Pro (Id Buffer?)?
If that is the case then use CBR in PS5 makes no sense.

Not likely. If they would remove that hardware it would make BC much harder, and Cerny talked especially how hard they worked together with AMD to ensure the back compat.

 

[Razvedka]

Avoiding allocations at all is how you manage garbage collection, all you would be doing is using statics / singletons and using all the memory (and gc would still occur, unless you preserve all memory in a scene.. in the next one). Moving to value-object based design and immutable data / functions would be the first port of call. There really isn't much stopping you writing code similar to C++ in C# if you manage your data structures and leverage value types + immutability. C#9 is actually fantastic for this. Unity just made bad choices / didn't have the tools at the time.

It's interesting to see the rise of FP. Those ideas broke into JS in a very big way.

 

[Mr Moose]

Never heard of it.
It's not like a BR game, is it?

 

[mitchman]

Wait. There are game engines with actual garbage collection? I had just assumed that most were in C/C++ for perf reasons and we're not subject to GC (even if they use workarounds to similar effect).

Relatedly, I think it'd be cool to see a game engine written in Rust.

Yes, Unity uses C# which runs on a garbage collected runtime. I'm not sure Rust is very comfortable for game development, it's a bit too low level for many people. Unreal gets away with C++ by hiding most of the complexities behind macros and smart pointers.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Yes, Unity uses C# which runs on a garbage collected runtime. I'm not sure Rust is very comfortable for game development, it's a bit too low level for many people. Unreal gets away with C++ by hiding most of the complexities behind macros and smart pointers.

Actually, before being bought by Facebook that is exactly what Ready at Dawn was doing: moving all of their engine code to Rust .

 

[Barakov]

Never heard of it.
It's not like a BR game, is it?

Checked it out on PS4. It's a 4v4 class based multiplayer game with mandatory cross play. It's.......okay. It might've changed since the time I played it but if I wanted something like that there are better games out there, imo.

 

[Garani]

Could be free and I still wouldn't use it.

Why not? I find the service quite appealing, and in the end I manage to get it at around €30/year. You don't get the latest, but there are plenty of games that I didn't play and don't quite plan on buying.

 

[Mr Moose]

Why not? I find the service quite appealing, and in the end I manage to get it at around €30/year. You don't get the latest, but there are plenty of games that I didn't play and don't quite plan on buying.

I have a PS2, PS3 and PS4 (and a Vita/Vita TV) if I want to play old games, I am not really a fan of cloud/digital crap.

 

[Garani]

I have a PS2, PS3 and PS4 (and a Vita/Vita TV) if I want to play old games, I am not really a fan of cloud/digital crap.

Well, I use it in a different way: I have my PS3 (2 actually: a Day One and slim) and the PS5. I don't usually play PS3/PS2 cloud games (my line isn't great) but I download the PS4 games and play them on my PS5.

 

[ethomaz]

Yes, Unity uses C# which runs on a garbage collected runtime. I'm not sure Rust is very comfortable for game development, it's a bit too low level for many people. Unreal gets away with C++ by hiding most of the complexities behind macros and smart pointers.

C# doesn’t need to run over GC... it is optional.

But you are right about Unity... GC is one of the main causes of poor performance in Unity games.

BTW I believe Unity games on PS4/PS5 are not using .NET and GC.

 

[IntentionalPun]

C# doesn’t need to run over GC... it is optional.

But you are right about Unity... GC is one of the main causes of poor performance in Unity games.

BTW I believe Unity games on PS4/PS5 até not using .NET and GC.

lol

 

[Rea]

Can you link me to where anyone at Insomniac said this?

Because their Temporal Injection technique renders roughly half the pixels each frame.

It's not "native 4k" then. And there's nothing wrong with that; just an improper use of the term. Native 4k is pointless, especially when technique's like what Insomniac employs can render half the pixels and put out a superior image.

There's the difference in native resolution of Spider man 2018 and Spider-Man miles morales in ps5. In Spider-Man 2018, DF can detect that its native resolution roughly 1500p. But in Miles Morales it is native 4k. Both uses temporal injection. If native resolution in miles morales is below 4k DF will surely see them.

 

[Dibils2k]

God of War patched is still CBR and looks great at 4k 60

it still has native resolution of 1800p! which is enough to look great on a 4k TV without CBR anyway

 

[SubZer0]

Can you link me to where anyone at Insomniac said this?

Because their Temporal Injection technique renders roughly half the pixels each frame.

It's not "native 4k" then. And there's nothing wrong with that; just an improper use of the term. Native 4k is pointless, especially when technique's like what Insomniac employs can render half the pixels and put out a superior image.

Insomniac Interview: The Tech Behind Marvel’s Spider-Man

Learn how @InsomniacGames taps into the power of PS4 and PS4 Pro to create a massive world that looks Amazing. #SpiderManPS4

blog.playstation.com

From DF analysis

"Now you woulndt necassary think that you need to Apple this to a native 4k image but the combination rallye works and helps eliminate most aliasing"

Nx gamer says something similair

 

[3liteDragon]

Insomniac Interview: The Tech Behind Marvel’s Spider-Man

Learn how @InsomniacGames taps into the power of PS4 and PS4 Pro to create a massive world that looks Amazing. #SpiderManPS4

blog.playstation.com

From DF analysis

"Now you woulndt necassary think that you need to Apple this to a native 4k image but the combination rallye works and helps eliminate most aliasing"

Nx gamer says something similair

So if you add TAA on top of a NATIVE 4K image, you’re doing it to eliminate aliasing. But what if you’re using TAA to reconstruct from let’s say 3200x1800 to a 4K resolution, is TAA only responsible for the reconstruction or does it somehow do both reconstruction AND anti-aliasing?

 

[SubZer0]

So if you add TAA on top of a NATIVE 4K image, you’re doing it to eliminate aliasing. But what if you’re using TAA to reconstruct from let’s say 3200x1800 to a 4K resolution, is TAA only responsible for the reconstruction or does it somehow do both reconstruction AND anti-aliasing?

Yes when you run their Temporal Injection technique over a 4k image it handles post processing effects like anti aliasing thats whats John said in his analysing
If you under 4k i assume its doing both Resolution upscaling & AA

 

[ToadMan]

Wait. There are game engines with actual garbage collection? I had just assumed that most were in C/C++ for perf reasons and we're not subject to GC (even if they use workarounds to similar effect).

Relatedly, I think it'd be cool to see a game engine written in Rust.

Unity uses c# so that has inbuilt GC.

But if you access the engine backend source (need to sign up for unity pro licensing) then you’ll hit some C++ and other bits.

These multi platform/multi os/multi device days many developers - particularly indie ones - will take code and engine portability over straight performance.

 

[abel empire]

Ear peachfuzz, now we're talking next gen.

You do know that wasnt a realtime model. It was a model probably for cutscenes

 

[IntentionalPun]

Insomniac Interview: The Tech Behind Marvel’s Spider-Man

Learn how @InsomniacGames taps into the power of PS4 and PS4 Pro to create a massive world that looks Amazing. #SpiderManPS4

blog.playstation.com

From DF analysis

"Now you woulndt necassary think that you need to Apple this to a native 4k image but the combination rallye works and helps eliminate most aliasing"

Nx gamer says something similair

You just linked to Insomniac's interview..

From that interview:

Temporal injection is a technique we use to create a full 4k image on the PS4 Pro without rendering every pixel on every single frame. We render slightly more than half the pixels, then “inject” them into a full-sized 4k image.

They are just saying they take 2 slightly more than half-frames to create a full 4k image (since each half frame would be slightly more than 2k.) That's what they mean by 4k image..

You guys are making no sense.. like what are you even trying to say? Why in the world would you render something in native, and then completely replace it with a different image?

It really doesn't matter since it's gorgeous lol.. but seriously, why are NXGamer and DF the authorities on Insomoniac's technique when they themselves explain it involves rendering slightly more than half the pixels per frame?

 

[ethomaz]

So if you add TAA on top of a NATIVE 4K image, you’re doing it to eliminate aliasing. But what if you’re using TAA to reconstruct from let’s say 3200x1800 to a 4K resolution, is TAA only responsible for the reconstruction or does it somehow do both reconstruction AND anti-aliasing?

It help with both.

That is why a real comparison with these techs should be 4k native + AA and not like some threads comparisons DLSS with 4k native without AA that will give the DLSS a better look due being less aliased.

 

[M1chl]

You just linked to Insomniac's interview..

From that interview:



They are just saying they take 2 slightly more than half-frames to create a full 4k image (since each half frame would be slightly more than 2k.) That's what they mean by 4k image..

You guys are making no sense.. like what are you even trying to say? Why in the world would you render something in native, and then completely replace it with a different image?

It really doesn't matter since it's gorgeous lol.. but seriously, why are NXGamer and DF the authorities on Insomoniac's technique when they themselves explain it involves rendering slightly more than half the pixels per frame?

Wasn't temporal injection used in Killzone: Shadow Fall MP?

 

[ethomaz]

You just linked to Insomniac's interview..

From that interview:



They are just saying they take 2 slightly more than half-frames to create a full 4k image (since each half frame would be slightly more than 2k.) That's what they mean by 4k image..

You guys are making no sense.. like what are you even trying to say? Why in the world would you render something in native, and then completely replace it with a different image?

It really doesn't matter since it's gorgeous lol.. but seriously, why are NXGamer and DF the authorities on Insomoniac's technique when they themselves explain it involves rendering slightly more than half the pixels per frame?

You guys are talking about the original Spider-man or Miles Morales?

 

[IntentionalPun]

You guys are talking about the original Spider-man or Miles Morales?

We are talking about MIle's Morales on PS5; which people are claiming uses Insomniac's Temporal Injection but also renders "native 4k." It makes no sense.

(initially this started w/ the claim that the game both "upsamples" and renders native... but SubZer0 also claimed it was both TAA and Temporal Injection.. which are totally different)

 

[Razvedka]

Actually, before being bought by Facebook that is exactly what Ready at Dawn was doing: moving all of their engine code to Rust .

That's awesome

 

[ethomaz]

We are talking about MIle's Morales on PS5; which people are claiming uses Insomniac's Temporal Injection but also renders "native 4k." It makes no sense.

I believe Miles Morales has three modes:

4k DRS 30fps RT
4k DRS 60fps
4k DRS 60fps RT

All modes seems to uses Temporal Injection to reach 4k when needed.... when the DRS drops the resolution below native 4k.

Edit - I read again and fixed.

 

[IntentionalPun]

All modes seems to uses Temporal Injection to reach 4k when needed.... when the DRS drops the resolution below native 4k.

Yeah that's the only thing that really makes sense... so it's dynamic resolution (w/ upscaling); not native.

And fucking beautiful.

 

[ethomaz]

Yeah that's the only thing that really makes sense... so it's dynamic resolution (w/ upscaling); not native.

And fucking beautiful.

Yes... there is no native/fixed mode in Miles Morales.... all of them drops resolution... it is just that the 30fps one holds 4k most of time but can drop do 1512p (DF tests) when the temporal injection kicks in.

I’m with you I don’t thing when the imagine is 4k native there is any way to inject temporal pixels.

 

[LiquidRex]

WIPO - Search International and National Patent Collections

patentscope.wipo.int

WIPO - Search International and National Patent Collections

patentscope.wipo.int

Definitely pushing VR.

 

[MasterCornholio]

You just linked to Insomniac's interview..

From that interview:



They are just saying they take 2 slightly more than half-frames to create a full 4k image (since each half frame would be slightly more than 2k.) That's what they mean by 4k image..

You guys are making no sense.. like what are you even trying to say? Why in the world would you render something in native, and then completely replace it with a different image?

It really doesn't matter since it's gorgeous lol.. but seriously, why are NXGamer and DF the authorities on Insomoniac's technique when they themselves explain it involves rendering slightly more than half the pixels per frame?

I believe Miles Morales has three modes:

4k DRS 30fps RT
4k DRS 60fps
4k DRS 60fps RT

All modes seems to uses Temporal Injection to reach 4k when needed.... when the DRS drops the resolution below native 4k.

Edit - I read again and fixed.

Just wanted to clarify something.

With Spiderman Miles Morales on PS5 it's creating 60 half frames per second to generate 30 full frames per second. The idea here is that 60 images get combined to produce 30.

Just wanted to make sure I'm understanding this correctly.

 

[LiquidRex]

I hope this doesn't mean what I think it means.

 

[BGs]

Ear peachfuzz, now we're talking next gen.

It is a magnificent quality detail, whether it is real or simulated (depending on the game), but it is a pity that it is an effect that during a gameplay goes unnoticed 99% of the time. Which already happens in IG's Spider-Man and I would even bet that it will also go unnoticed during R&C gameplay (I'm not joking).

 

[LiquidRex]

Excellent work.

 

[LiquidRex]

 

[Stooky]

VA is recorded quite far into the total development time no? Interesting to say the least

VO is recorded at any point during production. Most of it recorded at the start, towards the end VO pick ups for things that might have been missed.

 

[Lunatic_Gamer]

 

[ethomaz]

Just wanted to clarify something.

With Spiderman Miles Morales on PS5 it's creating 60 half frames per second to generate 30 full frames per second. The idea here is that 60 images get combined to produce 30.

Just wanted to make sure I'm understanding this correctly.

I don’t believe it is the case.

The temporal injection only happens when the resolution is not native 4k and it is not based in half frames because even on PS4 Pro the base resolution was about 1500p+ (Insomniac was clear about base resolution being always over 1440p).

When temporal injection take place it fill the missing pixels to reach 4k with pixels from old frames... so it works with 1500p, 1800p, 1900p, etc.

That is how I believe it works based on Insomniac interviews... it works in 30 and 60fps modes so I’m the game is not generating 120 frames.

It is different from CBR that indeed use half of pixels to generate a full image.

 

[bitbydeath]

 

[skit_data]

They have discounts on the season pass and expansions, but its not possible to buy it, thats curious.

 

[LiquidRex]

Tony Hawks 1 & 2 Remaster is 120fps 1080p on PS5, but 120fps 1440p on XSX, does this have anything to do with the fact XSX supports 1440p resolution natively, or another reason?

 

[Mr Moose]

Tony Hawks 1 & 2 Remaster is 120fps 1080p on PS5, but 120fps 1440p on XSX, does this have anything to do with the fact XSX supports 1440p resolution natively, or another reason?

Hard to say, 4k 60fps has more pixels per second than 1440p 120fps (its more like 1440p 144fps), but other games have native res of 1440p and are fine (though the output isn't 1440p). A 1660 Super has an average of 115fps at 1440p so these two consoles should have no problem with it.
Both were reported by Activision as having 1080p/120fps modes earlier.

Tony Hawk’s™ Pro Skater™ 1 + 2 – Coming Soon to PlayStation® 5, Xbox Series X|S, and Switch!

blog.activision.com

Meticulous Next-Gen Upgrades
A true next-gen experience is coming to the PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X|S featuring improved resolution, spatial audio, high-fidelity atmospherics, and more.
Skate in super crisp 120 FPS at 1080P, or 60 FPS in native 4K*. Watch the levels come to life like never before with sharper dynamic shadows, reflections, and lens flare, plus enhanced skater textures and more.
And for on-the-go play, the Nintendo Switch version can’t be beat, giving fans the chance to skate with their favorite pros wherever they are.

 

[Neo Blaster]

Tony Hawks 1 & 2 Remaster is 120fps 1080p on PS5, but 120fps 1440p on XSX, does this have anything to do with the fact XSX supports 1440p resolution natively, or another reason?

They are talking about internal resolution, not output. It doesn't matter in what resolution a PS5 game renders, output is always 1080p or 4k according to config.

 

[Mr Moose]

Has this been posted?




Crazy shit.

 

[LiquidRex]