Support NeoGAF

[TheRedRiders]

Sadly if the game is gonna be on Series S then the standard is just 7 GB RAM.

Games like Hellblade 2, Perfect Dark, Forza, Starfield, Doom, Halo, Elder Scrolls, etc... and plenty of 3rd parties... will all have to be made to work with just 2 GB more RAM than last gen, which is still 2 GB less than the last gen One X had.

"Laughs in Playstation 5 first party exclusives"

 

[DarkMage619]

Sadly if the game is gonna be on Series S then the standard is just 7 GB RAM.

Games like Hellblade 2, Perfect Dark, Forza, Starfield, Doom, Halo, Elder Scrolls, etc... and plenty of 3rd parties... will all have to be made to work with just 2 GB more RAM than last gen, which is still 2 GB less than the last gen One X had.

Good thing the XSX|S have RAM saving features like SFS and Velocity Architecture to reduce the need to have more physical memory. Every XSX|S having a standard SSD will also alleviate this 'issue'.

Good on you to acknowledge that even though the XSS has less RAM than the X1X it gets better performance in most of the games that appear on both platforms. Resident Evil to be the latest example plus the option for raytracing, a feature the X1X with more RAM, lacks entirely. This is from the system that is an upgrade to the X1S. It's almost like the RAM argument isn't really a real 'issue'.

 

[FranXico]

Insomniac bought the IP from MS before Sony bought them. Sony owns it now.

MS still owns the publishing rights for the 1st game tho.

I was under the impression MS never owned the IP, only exclusive publishing rights.

 

[KingT731]

I was under the impression MS never owned the IP, only exclusive publishing rights.

MS never owned the IP and Insomniac already talked about how it ended up on Xbox because of that. They have the publishing rights to the game.

 

[kyliethicc]

I was under the impression MS never owned the IP, only exclusive publishing rights.

MS never owned the IP and Insomniac already talked about how it ended up on Xbox because of that. They have the publishing rights to the game.

Oh ok. I just know Sony owns it now since they bought Insomniac.

 

[Red_Driver85]

that will make PS5 outdated and Xbox EXTREMELY outdated!

How about no?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

How about no?

Yeah PC will continue to be dragged down by lower common denominator. Star Citizen? Yeah...

 

[arvfab]

Good thing the XSX|S have RAM saving features like SFS and Velocity Architecture to reduce the need to have more physical memory. Every XSX|S having a standard SSD will also alleviate this 'issue'.

Good on you to acknowledge that even though the XSS has less RAM than the X1X it gets better performance in most of the games that appear on both platforms. Resident Evil to be the latest example plus the option for raytracing, a feature the X1X with more RAM, lacks entirely. This is from the system that is an upgrade to the X1S. It's almost like the RAM argument isn't really a real 'issue'.

I don't know if you are failing to see the logic issues in what you are writing or if my logical thinking is flawed.

If both Series X and S have the same RAM saving features, which we assume save the same amount of RAM, isn't the total available RAM on the S still less than on X?

Or are you impling, that the S has even better RAM saving features? And if that's the case, why not use them on the X to increase performance even more? And we are back at the S having less RAM than the X...

Feels like an Atropos loop... I need to get a pause from Returnal.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I don't know if you are failing to see the logic issues in what you are writing or if my logical thinking is flawed.

If both Series X and S have the same RAM saving features, which we assume save the same amount of RAM, isn't the total available RAM on the S still less than on X?

Or are you impling, that the S has even better RAM saving features? And if that's the case, why not use them on the X to increase performance even more? And we are back at the S having less RAM than the X...

Feels like an Atropos loop... I need to get a pause from Returnal.

I still like how they double count SFS and Velocity Architecture (hint: SFS is one of XVA’s building blocks ).

 

[kyliethicc]

Good thing the XSX|S have RAM saving features like SFS and Velocity Architecture to reduce the need to have more physical memory. Every XSX|S having a standard SSD will also alleviate this 'issue'.

Good on you to acknowledge that even though the XSS has less RAM than the X1X it gets better performance in most of the games that appear on both platforms. Resident Evil to be the latest example plus the option for raytracing, a feature the X1X with more RAM, lacks entirely. This is from the system that is an upgrade to the X1S. It's almost like the RAM argument isn't really a real 'issue'.

Multiple 1st party Xbox engine programmers from Id Software disagree.

 

[kyliethicc]

I don't know if you are failing to see the logic issues in what you are writing or if my logical thinking is flawed.

If both Series X and S have the same RAM saving features, which we assume save the same amount of RAM, isn't the total available RAM on the S still less than on X?

Or are you impling, that the S has even better RAM saving features? And if that's the case, why not use them on the X to increase performance even more? And we are back at the S having less RAM than the X...

Feels like an Atropos loop... I need to get a pause from Returnal.

Give him a break, he's not very intelligent.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Multiple 1st party Xbox engine programmers from Id Software disagree.

Not for nothing but Idtech is the most technically proficient Xbox studio.

 

[reksveks]

Not for nothing but Idtech is the most technically proficient Xbox studio.

Do also remember what ram they did want in the systems. Not going to lie but sometimes an engineer does just want more hardware power at the expense of everything else.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Do also remember what ram they did want in the systems. Not going to lie but sometimes an engineer does just want more hardware power at the expense of everything else.

Seems pretty immaterial to me. You have the most technically proficient Xbox studio throwing shade at the series S and how it impacts what they can do on Series X. Reminder that this was when they could still be honest about it.

Microsoft made a choice, they chased the blue ocean dream. Something had to give.

Spoiler

Laugh the pain away my friend, laugh the pain away

 

[kyliethicc]

Not for nothing but Idtech is the most technically proficient Xbox studio.

And their coders think their own hardware sucks. lol

 

[Riky]

I don't know if you are failing to see the logic issues in what you are writing or if my logical thinking is flawed.

If both Series X and S have the same RAM saving features, which we assume save the same amount of RAM, isn't the total available RAM on the S still less than on X?

Or are you impling, that the S has even better RAM saving features? And if that's the case, why not use them on the X to increase performance even more? And we are back at the S having less RAM than the X...

Feels like an Atropos loop... I need to get a pause from Returnal.

You don't need as much Ram if you are rendering at sometimes a quarter of the resolution. You also will not need as much when your engine includes SFS and Mesh Shaders as has been detailed several times in presentations. Developers concerned need to use the full feature set of the machine, then we will see what they say.

 

[assurdum]

You don't need as much Ram if you are rendering at sometimes a quarter of the resolution. You also will not need as much when your engine includes SFS and Mesh Shaders as has been detailed several times in presentations. Developers concerned need to use the full feature set of the machine, then we will see what they say.

Obviously you have no clue of what you are talking about and continue to repeat the MS PR marketing spin as it'd change how the reality works

 

[Riky]

Obviously you have no clue of what you are talking about and continue to repeat the MS PR marketing spin as it'd change how the reality works

Reality.

 

[arvfab]

You don't need as much Ram if you are rendering at sometimes a quarter of the resolution. You also will not need as much when your engine includes SFS and Mesh Shaders as has been detailed several times in presentations. Developers concerned need to use the full feature set of the machine, then we will see what they say.

I can tell you what they will say: the S has less RAM than the X.

No amount of optimization and RAM saving features will change this fact.

Therefore a developer will either need to make significant changes between both Platforms (detracting resources which could be dedicated to improving the X version) or use the S version as baseline. And for the latter, I'm not talking about graphics, but about level or even game design.

PS: I hope I'm totally wrong, gimped games because of the S will not only be bad for Xbox, but for the whole generation. Unfortunately, we will never know. Maybe if more devs, like iD, Remedy and others already have, will speak about the issue.

 

[assurdum]

Reality.

I don't think post a pic of your room will help your cause

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Reality.

No one wants to play that kindergarten classroom. When we see actual, good games we can start talking about it. In the meanwhile too much talk and nothing to show.

 

[arvfab]

It's your room?

Doesn't seem like the blackboard supports VRR, therefore I say no.

 

[Interfectum]

No one wants to play that kindergarten classroom. When we see actual, good games we can start talking about it. In the meanwhile too much talk and nothing to show.

Wait till E3™

 

[Thirty7ven]

Imagine using Microsoft PR to prove that IDtech don’t know what they are talking about.

The snake is eating itself.

 

[Setsuna Mudou]

Obviously you have no clue of what you are talking about and continue to repeat the MS PR marketing spin as it'd change how the reality works

Maybe it's too many hours of returnal for me, but I detect a pattern:

"xss is not bad because:
a) some pcs are low spec
b) dx12 ULTIMATE!!!1one!!
c) (insert MS technical PR buzzword here, e.g. mesh shaders yo!)
d) 1 random dev said the xss was fine for him
e) it technically can do raytracing bro
f) the ssd, if we 2x the actual speed it can totally be as fast as the ps5 one
g) will sell to so many people... seriously... look at those sales numbers tho..."

we might be stuck in a time loop

 

[Riky]

I can tell you what they will say: the S has less RAM than the X.

No amount of optimization and RAM saving features will change this fact.

Therefore a developer will either need to make significant changes between both Platforms (detracting resources which could be dedicated to improving the X version) or use the S version as baseline. And for the latter, I'm not talking about graphics, but about level or even game design.

PS: I hope I'm totally wrong, gimped games because of the S will not only be bad for Xbox, but for the whole generation. Unfortunately, we will never know. Maybe if more devs, like iD, Remedy and others already have, will speak about the issue.

You're denying the facts that 1080p uses less Vram than 4k? If so please stop talking, any PC benchmark will show you this, Gears 5 at Ultra which is a pretty demanding games uses around 4gb, sometimes less. That doesn't use SFS or Mesh Shaders, which are proven to save on Ram usage as the above picture shows. Then add in Tier 2 VRS for further savings, this has been detailed continually recently and has been added to the GDK.
The GDK that Series S will just slide into spec wise above the minimum PC spec that the market dictates, the majority of PC owners still game at 1080p. Will the minimum spec on PC for a game developed on this GDK be above the Zen 2 GPU and RDNA2 GPU with VA on the Series S.....no is the answer, not for a very long time.

 

[elliot5]

More people ought to listen to Billy's other tweets, too.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Sony showing instead of PR BS:

timestamped:

 

[arvfab]

You're denying the facts that 1080p uses less Vram than 4k? If so please stop talking, any PC benchmark will show you this, Gears 5 at Ultra which is a pretty demanding games uses around 4gb, sometimes less. That doesn't use SFS or Mesh Shaders, which are proven to save on Ram usage as the above picture shows. Then add in Tier 2 VRS for further savings, this has been detailed continually recently and has been added to the GDK.
The GDK that Series S will just slide into spec wise above the minimum PC spec that the market dictates, the majority of PC owners still game at 1080p. Will the minimum spec on PC for a game developed on this GDK be above the Zen 2 GPU and RDNA2 GPU with VA on the Series S.....no is the answer, not for a very long time.

But why should/how could they increase the minimum specs, if they still need to support the S (if they want to launch on Xbox, of course)?

We hopefully start to see more games requiring an SSD on PC, for example. Why? Because devs are sure to have them available on consoles.

Speaking more in general, an additional platform, always means in some way or another having to make compromises. Be it "only" financially (more people/time spent on optimization) or worse, technically.
Switch third party support is the best example. Most don't care (although big sales potential) when launching multiplatform titles or need to get extra teams for developing a dedicated version.

Now imagine not having the option to drop the S version, because you have to release on it if you want to launch on Xbox...

 

[kyliethicc]

More people ought to listen to Billy's other tweets, too.

Funny how he and his co-worker only had to delete the negative tweets once xbox bought bethesda.

 

[Riky]

But why should/how could they increase the minimum specs, if they still need to support the S (if they want to launch on Xbox, of course)?

We hopefully start to see more games requiring an SSD on PC, for example. Why? Because devs are sure to have them available on consoles.

Speaking more in general, an additional platform, always means in some way or another having to make compromises. Be it "only" financially (more people/time spent on optimization) or worse, technically.
Switch third party support is the best example. Most don't care (although big sales potential) when launching multiplatform titles or need to get extra teams for developing a dedicated version.

Now imagine not having the option to drop the S version, because you have to release on it if you want to launch on Xbox...

Your missing the important point, Microsoft have moved to a GDK with PC, both consoles slot into that GDK at different levels due to their specs, Series X will not be at the top no more than Series S will be at the bottom. Microsoft release all their games on PC, so until the PC market decides that the minimum spec is above Series S then there is no problem and that's going to be a long time. You get back to me when a first party game has a higher minimum PC spec than the Series S, then we'll talk about it again

 

[elliot5]

Funny how he and his co-worker only had to delete the negative tweets once xbox bought bethesda.

They may have also been tired of being @'ed and tagged and referenced by console warriors.

 

[JTCx]

You're denying the facts that 1080p uses less Vram than 4k? If so please stop talking, any PC benchmark will show you this, Gears 5 at Ultra which is a pretty demanding games uses around 4gb, sometimes less.

Try again.

 

[Riky]

Try again.

 

[SlimySnake]

Sony showing instead of PR BS:

timestamped:

Are you trying to trigger my Returnal PTSD with that timestamp? That Laser dodge gave me Nemesis flashbacks.

 

[Superayate]

Funny how he and his co-worker only had to delete the negative tweets once xbox bought bethesda.

Yeah, but for this "positive" Message, it was written few days before the announcement

---

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Are you trying to trigger my Returnal PTSD with that timestamp? That Laser dodge gave me Nemesis flashbacks.

Wait until you meet the last one, he's pretty much the hardest with too much shit going on. But the Nemesis should've been the last one because the fight is really the most epic among all of them, not to mention how creepy he looks.

 

[SlimySnake]

"Laughs in Playstation 5 first party exclusives"

to be fair, we still dont know the OS RAM usage in the PS5.

You would think DF with their unprecedented access to first and third party studios would get some confirmation on that, but nope.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

to be fair, we still dont know the OS RAM usage in the PS5.

You would DF with their unprecedented access to first and third party studios would get some confirmation on that, but nope.

Can't say they don't, but it doesn't mean it's not NDA'ed.

 

[JTCx]

Well well well look at that. Youve just outted yourself.

 

[kyliethicc]

They may have also been tired of being @'ed and tagged and referenced by console warriors.

Eh they went on social media to publicly complain about the sbox. They wanted the attention.

Its not like it was some leaked document or secret text that got revealed.

 

[SlimySnake]

More people ought to listen to Billy's other tweets, too.

Billy sounds a bit schizo tbh. Those two tweets directly contradict each other. I am guessing his bosses told him to say something nice or risk getting fired once MS bought Zenimax.

Well well well look at that. Youve just outted yourself.

So VRAM usage goes up from 4.2 GB to 5.1 GB. Thats only 900 GB or 21%.

XSX's total vram is 13.5 GB for games to 7.5 GB for XSS. That's 80% more vram. I guess Riky has proven that 59% of the extra VRAM in the xsx will be wasted because devs will have to target the XSS's lower spec.

 

[arvfab]

Your missing the important point, Microsoft have moved to a GDK with PC, both consoles slot into that GDK at different levels due to their specs, Series X will not be at the top no more than Series S will be at the bottom. Microsoft release all their games on PC, so until the PC market decides that the minimum spec is above Series S then there is no problem and that's going to be a long time. You get back to me when a first party game has a higher minimum PC spec than the Series S, then we'll talk about it again

But this will never happen BECAUSE of the S!

This discussion will never end, because no dev will ever have the guts to say "This game will be exclusive to PC and PS5, because we couldn't make it run on the S without major work/sacrifices. By the way, it runs flawlessly on the X."

So let's just say we will never agree on this one.

 

[TheRedRiders]

to be fair, we still dont know the OS RAM usage in the PS5.

You would DF with their unprecedented access to first and third party studios would get some confirmation on that, but nope.

There were rumours going around that Sony didn't disclose the RAM OS reserve of the PS5 to the developers. I don't know how true that is but it is curious that we've gotten no figures at all.

Although I don't think it's an issue as of yet, the high bandwidth SSD of the PS5 already puts it ahead of the Series X in terms of efficient RAM usage, this is for first party titles of course.

I also remember RGT mentioning the PS5's RAM won't be bottlenecked as much people think it will, thanks to the way Sony have tweaked the RAM and GPU caches for low latency, I know Matt Hargett alluded to something similar. Even the software engineer on MooresLawIsDead podcast mentioned how there are things which are just as important as RAM bandwidth for performance, things such as the latency between the RAM and GPU and the caches and so on and that "there are better ways than just brute forcing the problem". That being said I don't think no developer would say "hey the RAM is enough and we don't want more".

 

[Riky]

Billy sounds a bit schizo tbh. Those two tweets directly contradict each other. I am guessing his bosses told him to say something nice or risk getting fired once MS bought Zenimax.

So VRAM usage goes up from 4.2 GB to 5.1 GB. Thats only 900 GB or 21%.

XSX's total vram is 13.5 GB for games to 7.5 GB for XSS. That's 80% more vram. I guess Riky has proven that 59% of the extra VRAM in the xsx will be wasted because devs will have to target the XSS's lower spec.

It's 8gb if you use the high resolution texture pack, which obviously Series S wouldn't do. So double.
Series X doesn't have double the Ram of Series S.

 

[kyliethicc]

All of this about the Sbox RAM is extremely simple to grasp.

 

[Riky]

But this will never happen BECAUSE of the S!

This discussion will never end, because no dev will ever have the guts to say "This game will be exclusive to PC and PS5, because we couldn't make it run on the S without major work/sacrifices. By the way, it runs flawlessly on the X."

So let's just say we will never agree on this one.

It isn't about guts, it's about a publisher wanting to sell as many copies as possible, therefore they have to target the majority of PC players.

 

[arvfab]

Wait until you meet the last one, he's pretty much the hardest with too much shit going on. But the Nemesis should've been the last one because the fight is really the most epic among all of them, not to mention how creepy he looks.

I had a flawless run and was really lucky. Started straight from beginning of Act 2 and beat the final boss without dieing once (and a total of 6 deaths).

Arrived at the boss with 2 full health bars, the "machine-gun rocket launcher" and a few positive perks (5% weapon damage for each 200 orbits - had 1200+, several other weapon damage bonuses etc.).

Didn't even have to use any of the 3 small and 1 large health items.

Great game, going for the paltinum now.

 

[TheRedRiders]

People forget that PC will have PCIe 5.0 next that will have 32GB/s bandwidth (8GB/s for each lane "4x" for NVMe m.2) that will make PS5 outdated and Xbox EXTREMELY outdated!

With PCIe 5, the bandwidth, gigatransfer, and frequency are all doubled from the prior generation, which means that data can be transferred at substantially faster speeds. Here, you're looking at 32 gigatransfers per second, or 32 GT/s, a 128 GB/s bandwidth in an x16 configuration, and a frequency of 32GHz.

PCIe 5.0 vs. PCIe 4.0: Doubled Bandwidth Is Coming | Digital Trends

PCIe Gen 5 doubles the speeds of PCIe Gen 4, but the real advantage is that this could potentially lead to more compact desktops for gaming.

www.digitaltrends.com

One platform will just age like milk. That's my next build, @OverHeat .

to be fair, we still dont know the OS RAM usage in the PS5.

You would DF with their unprecedented access to first and third party studios would get some confirmation on that, but nope.

There were rumours going around that Sony didn't disclose the RAM OS reserve of the PS5 to the developers. I don't know how true that is but it is curious that we've gotten no figures at all.

Although I don't think it's an issue as of yet, the high bandwidth SSD of the PS5 already puts it ahead of the Series X in terms of efficient RAM usage, this is for first party titles of course.

I also remember RGT mentioning the PS5's RAM won't be bottlenecked as much people think it will, thanks to the way Sony have tweaked the RAM and GPU caches for low latency, I know Matt Hargett alluded to something similar. Even the software engineer on MooresLawIsDead podcast mentioned how there are things which are just as important as RAM bandwidth for performance, things such as the latency between the RAM and GPU and the caches and so on and that "there are better ways than just brute forcing the problem". That being said I don't think no developer would say "hey the RAM is enough and we don't want more".

So I found the original quote on my old posts, he talks about the importance of latency of the SSD and the likelihood of developers making use of PCIE 5.0/6.0 bandwidth. Interestingly enough, reading through this again, the cache scrubbers will also help when it comes to RAM and RAM bandwidth.

Software Engineer: On the SSD side of things (referring to PCIE 5.0/6.0), the pure bandwidth improvement doesn't seem very useful right now, you want to focus more on average bandwidth, or in particular latency and general efficiency rather than just raw bandwidth and to some degree brute forcing things can help but something that's come up, on the PS5 they've talked about this thing on the GPU that clears the caches on loading stuff...and that's basically something you have to do when your doing DMA and your modern CPU will have efficient support for DMA, but that's being added to GPU's now and they need better optimisation for that...

I actually looked through RDNA 2 instruction set and I noticed they had things for clearing the whole cache but I couldn't see anything for selective cache clearing so that does seem to be PS5 specific...and that specific example, they might just copy it from PS5...and the reason you need to clear the cache is if you've sneakily transferred something from the background into main memory and you have a copy of the old data in cache that's now stale, you need to clear it from the cache if it is in the cache and if you don't know it's in the cache, the only thing you can safely do is to clear the cache or accept the fact that you're going to have graphics glitches. I'm not going to promise which way AMD will implement it into RDNA 3 but one of those two will be very likely

 

[arvfab]

It isn't about guts, it's about a publisher wanting to sell as many copies as possible, therefore they have to target the majority of PC players.

Silly me, how couldn't I have thought about it! You are totally right, explains why everybody is rushing to backport everything to every generation up to PS2 era. They are missing on hundreds of millions of potential customers.

Nvidia and AMD must be really really dumb to release new cards every year. Ok ok, crypto-miners are buying them up. But gamers? Nah, they prefer to stay on old hardware.