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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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semicool

Banned
.


give me a scenario that makes sense of insiders, git hub, and sony engineers not being idiots. :messenger_winking_tongue:
It's way less cost effective by alot than doing a big GPU. It produces way more heat, especially per watt in regards to efficiency because Crossfire, for example, is dual but only gives about a 50 percent performance increase and has not been important for AMD to improve: https://www.techradar.com/news/nvid...-is-dead-but-should-we-mourn-multi-gpu-gaming . Sony would have probably an insurmountable hill to climb to cool it with a console's form factor and power budget, especially what's being dreamed of in fanboys heads(Dual 36...72 GPU). If they wanted a higher performing gpu it'd make a hell of a lot more sense to just make a bigger one....that would still have all the problems mentioned but not to the same level as a more expensive, lesser performing crossfire setup that's hotter, less efficient, with a dual GPU setup. In the PC space it happened because you can get a 1000 watt ps unit, large case, various options for cooling and an "unlimited" budget. The dual GPU dream in a console is asinine on many levels.
 
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Shin

Banned
You are probably right then. If they fail to mention specifics then we'll know that PS5 is underpowered.

Who knows, they might have their own show next month (if the AC Ragnarok + history are to believed).
If they do it at E3 and Xbox is stronger that wouldn't make for a good show, because they are going after Microsoft's presser (historically speaking).
Plus they skipped a lot this year so they should have a handful of games to cover at their own dedicated show.
 

joe_zazen

Member
Wrt using 5700xt to extrapolate to consoles, i found this interesting from DrKeo at ree:

Chips aren't born equal. When you break up a wafer into chips, different chips will have variant quality. One chip will have a messed-up CU, another will have all CUs in perfect condition but will draw 200W in order to run at 1.8Ghz and another will be exactly the same but will draw only 150W. Because of that, GPU makers tier their cards. 5700 and 5700 XT are the exact same chip born on the same wafer. AMD had tested both and found one to be of higher quality so they've put it in the 5700 XT bin while the other chip was of lower quality, so it went in the 5700 bin. That's how AMD uses "the whole buffalo", they set a few bars for different SKUs and divide the chips between those SKU according to their quality. 5700 XT has to have 40 out of 40 active CUs and reach 1905Mhz while drawing 225W tops and 5700 has to have only 36 out of 40 active CUs and reach 1725Mhz while drawing 180W tops. If a chip is tested and it needs 280W to reach 1905Mhz, it goes in the 5700 bin even if all 40 CUs are perfect because it couldn't hit 225W. If a chip has a messed up CU, it goes in the 5700 bin even if it can reach 1905Mhz while using just 130W because it can't reach 40CUs.

Consoles, on the other hand, don't have the luxury of SKUs. If you want to take the same chip as the 5700/5700 XT and use it in a console, you know that your baseline has to be low enough because you don't have a cheaper SKU that uses all the chips that don't make the cut. You have to turn off some CUs, you have to decide on a low enough clock speed, heat, and power draw targets so that the vast majority of chip that are made can be used. After all, the more chips you have to throw away, the more money you've spent making your APU. Maybe your PS4's GPU has perfect 20CUs and it can hit 1000Mhz easily (2.56TF), but it won't because all PS4 consoles have to be the same and your neighbor's PS4's GPU can't hit those numbers.

Now that we know that, let's look at these "power draw/clocks" graphs and tables and think about what they actually mean. Someone took a 5700 XT, undervolted it and had pasted the results in a table or a graph. But what do these numbers really mean? First, they always use the 5700 XT, not the 5700. As we already know, a 5700 XT is the best of the best that came off the assembly line so obviously it will show the best overclocking and thermal performance. So they are basically taking the best-case scenario and presenting it as if it's the average scenario, that's the first failing of these graphs.

The second failing is that the 5700 XT has a 225W TBP label, but why is that? Haven't AMD heard about under-volting? Are they wasting power just for the hell of it? Not really. We've already talked about how not all chips are born equal, and even though the 5700 XT chips are the best chips on every wafer, they still vary in quality. One can hit 1905Mhz while using 140W and another chip will use 220W in order to hit the same clock speed. AMD had tested them and realized that the baseline should be 225W. It doesn't mean that the card you've bought will actually need 225W, but some of them do so the 5700 XT generally speaking does need the 225W label, even if your card doesn’t. The concept of under-volting is based on that you've won the silicon lottery, your chip can achieve the desired clock while using a lower voltage than the lowest quality 5700 XT that are out there. So the whole concept of under-volting is totally irrelevant to consoles. Sony can't count on the numbers in those graphs and table, after all a lot of 5700 XT can't sustain them and probably all 5700 can't either. So what will Sony do? Use @AegonSnake's tables and throw away 70% of the chips to the bin?

That's why these tables and graphs are irrelevant to consoles. There are no different SKUs to utilize the lower quality chips and the graphs are made based on high-quality chips that provide figures that most of the chips on the wafer just can't reach, thus irrelevant to console makers.

two things
  • I wonder if it is feasible that MS will be using defective xsx chips in lockhart.
  • 2ghz 36cu ps5 power draw estimates are based on best case scenario, making the chip look even worse
 
two things
  • I wonder if it is feasible that MS will be using defective xsx chips in lockhart.
  • 2ghz 36cu ps5 power draw estimates are based on best case scenario, making the chip look even worse

I don't believe so, at least from what I've read, the core purpose is for micro blades for Xcloud based on a chip that is designed for much lower clocks and power draw. With the possibility of bringing this to market as more of an S level consumer product or even a P level product with a die shrink and/or cooling wizardry. It's something that MS themselves haven't said much about, so anything is possible.
 

Bryank75

Banned
RW01MlX.jpg
 

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
I used to think so but after seeing hellblade its clear Lockhart won't hold anything back. They will butcher the Lockhart version but that's ok with me.
Yeah Hellblade looked phenomenal which makes me wonder if there will be XSX and PC "exclusives" and other games will be on both the XSX and Lockhart
 

Shin

Banned
Most likely a MS game and it could also mean the rumblings of XS being RDNA2 are true.
A while ago (I believe it was last year's CES) I said that AMD/MS have a good relationship because of the vibe onstage, people thought I was crazy.
Those 2 are birds of a feather in some ways because they are more involved than AMD/Sony outside of the console space so I guess the long working relationship might have something do with it.
The aforementioned GPU is most likely Navi20 (I haven't stayed up to date with tech recently, so not sure if anything changed), but that has been the GPU that was planned to have RT all along (not Navi 10, 12, 14, etc etc).
I guess they call it RDNA2 now.
 
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Bryank75

Banned
That game demo will most certainly be on a PC. So please don't think that the card they are showing will be a "direct" replica of what will be in the PS5/XSX. That's how hopes get dashed. But I'm curious what game will be shown.
It's the game I'm most interested in.... I Think we are all used to seeing demos on PC anyway, so that would be no surprise.
At least it's close!
 

Dolodolo

Member
That game demo will most certainly be on a PC. So please don't think that the card they are showing will be a "direct" replica of what will be in the PS5/XSX. That's how hopes get dashed. But I'm curious what game will be shown.
What hopes are dashed ? Hellblade 2 has already shown what the next generation will be capable of
Aren't you the person who said that you shouldn't expect strong revelations from these new consoles?
I've had enough of what Microsoft has shown me to know where the games are going to go. Especially, from the first party
 
Most likely a MS game and it could also mean the rumblings of XS being RDNA2 are true.
A while ago (I believe it was last year's CES) I said that AMD/MS have a good relationship because of the vibe onstage, people thought I was crazy.
Those 2 are birds of a feather in some ways because they are more involved than AMD/Sony outside of the console space so I guess the long working relationship might have something do with it.
What if ps5 turns out to be RDNA2 and xbox RDNA+? Internet woukd melt lol
 
What hopes are dashed ? Hellblade 2 has already shown what the next generation will be capable of
Aren't you the person who said that you shouldn't expect strong revelations from these new consoles?
I've had enough of what Microsoft has shown me to know where the games are going to go. Especially, from the first party
Hell blade 2 was in engine prerendered cutscene runing at 60% out put of 4k 30 fps .that is in no way indicative of how actual next gen gameplay look like
 

Dolodolo

Member
[QUOTE = "Шин, должность: 256433881, участник: 127894"]
Most likely a MS game and it could also mean the rumblings of XS being RDNA2 are true.
A while ago (I believe it was last year's CES) I said that AMD/MS have a good relationship because of the vibe onstage, people thought I was crazy.
Those 2 are birds of a feather in some ways because they are more involved than AMD/Sony outside of the console space so I guess the long working relationship might have something do with it.
The aforementioned GPU is most likely Navi20 (I haven't stayed up to date with tech recently, so not sure if anything changed), but that has been the GPU that was planned to have RT all along (not Navi 10, 12, 14, etc etc).
I guess they call it RDNA2 now.
[/ QUOTE]
An insider has already said that Microsoft has an rnda1 architecture
 
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(y)

Except for the insiders saying ps5 being the same or slightly more powerful than, xsx and pachters $1000 ps5 quote; everything lines up for 9.2 and 12 tf. But as Adored says, the ps5 chip looks to be “a broken design”.

it does make sense that Sony would go for the smaller chip size (316-340) vs MS (enormous 420-450) because MS has 4tf Lockhart in the pipeline and Sony is cheap AF. This would mean the insiders are all wrong and Sony has designed a broken chip that is 30% weaker, yet hotter and more power hungry. Possible? Sure. But i would prefere a theory that did not contradict either github or our insiders and make Sony engineers look like moronic stumblebums.

adored mentions chiplets being possible, and if they are feasible, 2X36 would not be crazy expensive, ps5 chip design would not be broken, insiders would be right, and github would not be contradicted.

__________

otoh, the above rests on xsx being 12tf. If it was 9tf, and was upclocked recently to get a 1tf bump to 10; then we dont need dual gpus or chiplets to explain anything. Xsx was less powerful last summer, now it is more powerful, and the power delta is less than 10%. Pachters $1000 ps5 comments can refer to the need for massive cooling + power and maybe a giant ssd. Everything works in this scenario.

Damn, AdoredTV thinking the Github stuff being true means a lot, imo. They've gotten tons of other tech-related rumors and leaks right, and the analysis they did for the wafer count fitting AMD's wafer portfolio target numbers more or less fits it all together. Really enjoy AdoredTV, Corelink and Moore's Law Is Dead when it comes to these kind of in-depth tech analysis.

I've more or less come to terms with the fact these are pretty much the final (or very near-final) specs for each system. Things like RAM amount, and anything on the custom SSD/SSG implementation can (and likely will) change leading up to release, but everything else (other than CPU and GPU clocks) is pretty much a lock. This doesn't mean I'm disappointed with Sony, though. On the contrary, they have a very capable system, and if there's one thing I disagree with the video on, it's the assertion that power wins the generation.

Power definitely helps (especially at the beginning), but ultimately it's about the games and user experience. And we know Sony isn't a slouch on those fronts. Microsoft's the one who has something to prove in terms of bringing some genuinely hype games to next-gen; some of the rumors are intriguing (like a possible new Perfect Dark), but it's the results that count. They're also going to need to expand their global focus more; international markets are bigger now than they were in PS3/360 days (exceptions being places like Japan though; home consoles seem to be losing market share every gen over there) so even if they do really strongly in US and UK it won't be enough if they want to try beating Sony in next-gen console sales.

They also need to be reeeallly careful how they handle Lockhart.

As for Sony? They just need to make sure they don't get caught playing into the power game. If you look at their messaging with PS5 so far they've avoided doing so. They might even pull a Nintendo and try avoid directly mentioning specifications themselves (I also think MS will do the same, just using vague catchphrases to allude to being most powerful). They gotta focus on the games and next-gen PSVR, and they seem ready to do so.

Most likely a MS game and it could also mean the rumblings of XS being RDNA2 are true.
A while ago (I believe it was last year's CES) I said that AMD/MS have a good relationship because of the vibe onstage, people thought I was crazy.
Those 2 are birds of a feather in some ways because they are more involved than AMD/Sony outside of the console space so I guess the long working relationship might have something do with it.
The aforementioned GPU is most likely Navi20 (I haven't stayed up to date with tech recently, so not sure if anything changed), but that has been the GPU that was planned to have RT all along (not Navi 10, 12, 14, etc etc).
I guess they call it RDNA2 now.

Whether it's Sony or MS, I'm just glad we'll be getting another next-gen demo friggin' tomorrow!
 
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Shin

Banned
Whether it's Sony or MS, I'm just glad we'll be getting another next-gen demo friggin' tomorrow!

Agreed, GodFall isn't my cup of tea (not into sci-fi much), neither did am I into HellBlade (2).
Then again 1st gen games always pale in comparison to what will eventually be, but still better than reading console war nonsense :p

EDIT: we need a thread for AMD's presser plus stream links, there isn't one yet.
 
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Here's a current release schedule for games coming in May and June this year (possible AMD RDNA2 RT-demo games bolded, courtesy GamesRadar)

May:

  • Maneater [PC, PS4, XBO, Switch] – May 5
  • Marvel's Avengers [PC, PS4, XBO, Stadia] – May 15
  • Sword Art Online Alicization Lycoris [PC, PS4, XBO] – May 22
  • The Last of Us 2 [PS4] – May 29 (pre-order The Last of Us 2)
  • Fast & Furious Crossroads [PC, PS4, XBO] – May TBC
  • New World [PC] – May TBC
  • SuperMash [Switch] – May TBC
June:

  • Griftlands [PC] – June TBC
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
There are other paste bin leaks from the same time period, funny people jumped on this one.
Even though it doesn't add up with other insider leaks
 
Here's a current release schedule for games coming in May and June this year (possible AMD RDNA2 RT-demo games bolded, courtesy GamesRadar)

May:

  • Maneater [PC, PS4, XBO, Switch] – May 5
  • Marvel's Avengers [PC, PS4, XBO, Stadia] – May 15
  • Sword Art Online Alicization Lycoris [PC, PS4, XBO] – May 22
  • The Last of Us 2 [PS4] – May 29 (pre-order The Last of Us 2)
  • Fast & Furious Crossroads [PC, PS4, XBO] – May TBC
  • New World [PC] – May TBC
  • SuperMash [Switch] – May TBC
June:

  • Griftlands [PC] – June TBC
Other than last of us part 2 non of those are graphical showcases. Anyways you forgot dyung light 2.no ?
 

VFXVeteran

Banned
What hopes are dashed ? Hellblade 2 has already shown what the next generation will be capable of
Aren't you the person who said that you shouldn't expect strong revelations from these new consoles?
I've had enough of what Microsoft has shown me to know where the games are going to go. Especially, from the first party

Hellblade 2, like any previous next-gen demos, is just a captured target. It will not represent what next-gen will look like during actual gameplay. We don't even have in-game cinematics that mimic gameplay now.
 
There are other paste bin leaks from the same time period, funny people jumped on this one.
Even though it doesn't add up with other insider leaks

Did you watch the AdoredTV video? They have very good speculation on the wafer amounts and it lining up with AMDs wafer production targets. Also the main reason this leak gained traction was because of how quickly it was deleted after being posted.

If you think about it, who are the three parties that would've removed the docs? AMD, Sony, and MS...in that order. Why AMD? Because apparently there was some employee info somewhere in the docs (though I have to wonder how a multi-billion dollar company doesn't keep sensitive employee info on a separate database).

If it was MS...if they are indeed not actual 12TF RDNA but the 12TF number referenced GCN...why would they be scared of running with a narrative from a Github doc leak when they're supposedly letting much bigger people/sources (Gamestop, other tech sites, Spencer's own sorta-ambiguous wording, tons of Youtube vids post-Github leak) run wild with that same narrative? Knowing full well if it turned out to be false, they'd ruin all the good will they've built back up over the past few years? Not to mention such a tactic runs opposite of the transparency they've been showing since Phil Spencer took over.

So that just leaves Sony. There were rumors that SIE put in the request to get that document pulled down (can't verify if that's the case however), but looking at it circumstantially, they're a very likely source for having gotten it removed (either directly or through AMD) if AMD didn't pull it themselves. Reason being because, well...we already see what kind of discourse that data's resulted from people both here and on Era, and across Youtube, other gaming sites etc. That hasn't necessarily been kind to Sony (I personally feel those who're acting "betrayed" on this front are completely wrong and possibly delusional, but that's just me), mind you.

The perception of that document leak benefits MS the most and Sony the least, with AMD somewhere in the middle. So it's likely Sony had it removed if, again, AMD didn't do it themselves. And if MS did so as to stop feeding into a 12TF RDNA narrative (if by some chance XSX isn't 12TF RDNA)...they could've nipped that in the butt around the TGAs time or when they were giving those interviews like a day or two after. In fact they'd need to put out a public message thanks to all the other places and YTers who've run with that narrative...again if it's a "narrative" as in the 12TF RDNA is fake, which looks highly unlikely.

Other than last of us part 2 non of those are graphical showcases. Anyways you forgot dyung light 2.no ?

Gamesradar didn't have it in their list so I didn't include it, but they may've forgotten to include it, nothing indicative the game's been delayed.

Also, I wouldn't use personal/anecdotal feelings on a game to rule it out; if it utilizes ray-tracing that can show off AMD's ray-tracing technology, then it's valid option. Tastes in art direction don't have a factor into it.
 
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Bryank75

Banned
While the numbers on paper are always fun to see, it's the real world performance that I am really interested to see...

I want to see physics on everything possible, rope bridges that swing according to weather, avalanches triggered by different actions, fire spreading accurately, more accurate ballistics etc.
 

Fake

Gold Member
What hopes are dashed ? Hellblade 2 has already shown what the next generation will be capable of
Aren't you the person who said that you shouldn't expect strong revelations from these new consoles?
I've had enough of what Microsoft has shown me to know where the games are going to go. Especially, from the first party
DF put a little of doubt on Hellblabe 2 trailer. We still need to see more about what both next gen are capable of.
 
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VFXVeteran

Banned
While the numbers on paper are always fun to see, it's the real world performance that I am really interested to see...

I want to see physics on everything possible, rope bridges that swing according to weather, avalanches triggered by different actions, fire spreading accurately, more accurate ballistics etc.

Be careful with the word "physics" because rendering is also physics. LOL! If you start using real physics with the CPU, you quickly find that it isn't powerful enough and thus need to use the GPU -- again.

At my job we are simulating real physics for missile aerodynamics, gravity, and propulsion. Fortunately for me, it's the same math as graphics features. Our CPUs aren't fast enough to solve the fluid equations in realtime. We could use the GPU for solving them. Bottomline: the more accurate you want game physics, the more you'll need the GPU to solve them in realtime.
 
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xool

Member
The guy on the right who just stands there, then misses with a sword gets more annoying everytime. How you you miss with a melee weapon.

Looks good but there's nothing but the tiny arena, eveything beyond is mist. Must be really early on in development and they just wanted to show something.

Looks like a more metal God of War imo. good.
 
That game demo will most certainly be on a PC. So please don't think that the card they are showing will be a "direct" replica of what will be in the PS5/XSX. That's how hopes get dashed. But I'm curious what game will be shown.
MS Demo & Unity The Heretic part 2 Demo, of course next gen wont match the new cards (mobile version of it).
 
It's way less cost effective by alot than doing a big GPU. It produces way more heat, especially per watt in regards to efficiency because Crossfire, for example, is dual but only gives about a 50 percent performance increase and has not been important for AMD to improve: https://www.techradar.com/news/nvid...-is-dead-but-should-we-mourn-multi-gpu-gaming . Sony would have probably an insurmountable hill to climb to cool it with a console's form factor and power budget, especially what's being dreamed of in fanboys heads(Dual 36...72 GPU). If they wanted a higher performing gpu it'd make a hell of a lot more sense to just make a bigger one....that would still have all the problems mentioned but not to the same level as a more expensive, lesser performing crossfire setup that's hotter, less efficient, with a dual GPU setup. In the PC space it happened because you can get a 1000 watt ps unit, large case, various options for cooling and an "unlimited" budget. The dual GPU dream in a console is asinine on many levels.

It's like the dual CPU (Saturn) concept but on steroids. In fact, there's lots of parallels between Saturn dual CPU and Crossfire/SLI dual-GPUs in terms of overall efficiency (i.e only a 1.5x increase rather than logically expected 2x increase due to architectural, latency, bandwidth, power issues etc.).

A single larger chip would always be preferable.
 

ZywyPL

Banned
The main concern i have with the 2GHZ is heat. I simply see how that would fit in a consumer device. I fully agree with 44 to 52 CU near the 1500gz theory as that would be easier to achieve. We will soon find out

The bigger issue with 2GHz is silicon lottery, as very few chips would be able to achieve such a high clock, easiest way to set yourself for poor production yields. At least regarding RDNA architecture, because we don't know if the PS5 will be based on it, or 2nd gen, or a mix of the two.
 
My point was only half could be used to cool that chip with that design. So it is interesting.

Interesting, but very impractical. Other posters have gone into the technical and cost-associated reasons why it would be a nightmare as well, and result in a far higher MSRP while not delivering a 2x increase (because, 'ya know, physics).

A chiplet design could potentially suffice, but there is nothing indicating a chiplet approach has been made with either next-gen console, so that one's just probably not gonna happen either.

The bigger issue with 2GHz is silicon lottery, as very few chips would be able to achieve such a high clock, easiest way to set yourself for poor production yields. At least regarding RDNA architecture, because we don't know if the PS5 will be based on it, or 2nd gen, or a mix of the two.

Likely mix of the two, same with XSX. Either that or they are both RDNA2.

Only thing that throws this off is supposedly Sony having a superior RT solution, but that could've been a rumor based on misled/misinterpreted wording passed through the grapevine.
 
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Disco_

Member
What does dual compute unit mean, and are there any examples of this in the pc world? I am speculating, but I want to believe so bad.
ex8ebVW.jpg


Chooo Chooo :-(
NAVI cards, 5700 and 5700 xt are 36 and 40 Dual Compute Units cards. That doesn't make them 72 and 80 cu cards.


When he eventually talks PS5, I wonder what shirt Cerny will wear?

Cerny rolls onto the stage in a hot tub, shirtless. On the edge of the tub is an odd shaped item covered with a cloth. Cerny pulls off the cloth and says "the fastest console ever is here". He picks it up, and with his signature smirk, lowers himself and the console beneath the foamy surface. He emerges, glistening. In a soothing voice he says "it's water cooled". As he stands up, a towel is wrapped around his waist. He turns and starts walking away. The towel drops. "$299" tattooed on his arse.
 
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