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Official Doctor Who Series 1, 5, 31, or Fnarg Thread of Moffat & Smith

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Axiom

Member
Last I saw of Katy Manning she was hosting silly segments on UKTV and having one of those annoying old lady tiny dog fetishes.

If I'd have known that deporting her from Australia would land her back on-screen as a companion I'd have never let her leave. Sorry everyone.

Honestly though, Jo? Who gives a fuck about Jo, she posed naked with a dalek and people still don't give a fuck. If you want an idiot companion there's better options, if you want sex symbol companions there's better options - hell if you want companions to piss people off Mel would lead to far more amusing hatred. Jo was just bland and dumb.

It's really a shame such a bland companion basically defines the Pertwee era, when she's sandwiched between companions actually worth a damn.
 

gerg

Member
Thomper said:
They're space-nazi's, basically. 45 years ago, they were genuinely scary and creepy, like nazi's themselves. These days, with WWII so far behind us, nazi's are mostly something cartoonish to most people. I don't mean to say that nazi's were mostly silly people, but just take a look at the biggest recent-movie-with-nazi's: Inglourious Basterds. The whole ideology of the nazi's (and thus the concept behind the nazi's) is so stupid and idiotic that if you've never actually lived 'during' them, they seem almost unhumanly stupid/silly.

I agree with what you're saying - subtle stuff is usually far scarier than something like the Daleks. But that's something of our generation, again. Daleks came from the visible threat of WWII, stuff like the Weeping Angels and the invisible thing in Midnight are more from a Cold War-kind of philosophy, where danger might be in every corner, you just can't recognize it, and it might strike at any second.

Apologies if that got convoluted/pretentiously intellectual, but I hope you get what I'm saying.

Don't worry. You don't sound pretentious at all.

Anyway, I guess it is a generational thing after all.
 

Furret

Banned
gerg said:
Don't worry. You don't sound pretentious at all.

Anyway, I guess it is a generational thing after all.

How is it a generational thing if young kids have made them more popular than ever?

Sounds like your suspension of disbelief is stuck in neutral.

How can they not be cool? They're hyper aggressive sentient tanks on a mission to wipe out all other life in the galaxy - and the only one that can beat them is a man armed with a Jammy Dodger.
 

gerg

Member
Furret said:
How is it a generational thing if young kids have made them more popular than ever?

I was vague. Young kids will always find them scary.

Sounds like your suspension of disbelief is stuck in neutral.

How can they not be cool? They're hyper aggressive sentient tanks on a mission to wipe out all other life in the galaxy - and the only one that can beat them is a man armed with a Jammy Dodger.

Undoubtedly part of my frustration is with how they're reintroduced. I don't think it would annoy me as much if the writers just admitted that the Daleks will always be around, and skipped the contrived attempts to bring them back each and every time.

Bear in mind, I don't deny that aesthetically they look rather good. But this isn't about that - it's about whether or not they're threatening villains.
 

Furret

Banned
gerg said:
I was vague. Young kids will always find them scary.



Undoubtedly part of my frustration is with how they're reintroduced. I don't think it would annoy me as much if the writers just admitted that the Daleks will always be around, and skipped the contrived attempts to bring them back each and every time.

Well, certainly it wasn't a very good episode - but that's not the daleks' fault.

I think the main problem is that almost every time they're defeated during the RTD era they're completely wiped out with nothing but bad writing and a cop out left to justify their reappearance.

I don't ever remember them being conclusively defeated in the old series, not even when the Doctor was actively trying to wipe them all out in Genesis of the Daleks.

At least this time they actually won and their return next time will make sense.
 

gerg

Member
Furret said:
I don't ever remember them being conclusively defeated in the old series, not even when the Doctor was actively trying to wipe them all out in Genesis of the Daleks.

At least this time they actually won and their return next time will make sense.

Fair enough. I agree that my exposure to the Daleks might not have been entirely fair on them.
 

Ripclawe

Banned
Here comes the before they were famous party pics let out by idiot friends.

Seriously She can't be that drunk if she could hold a wine glass, phone holder in that manner.

article-0-09306DE8000005DC-10_468x625.jpg


article-0-09306DE0000005DC-500_468x626.jpg


The alcohol-fuelled pictures of the actress are in complete contrast to the stylish star, who has been winning over Americans fans for the promotional trip to New York.

Perhaps aware of the embarrassing photos, Gillan said last week she had cut down on her drinking.

She said: 'I think I am going to try and lay off falling out of nightclubs. It’s not a good look.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...ntials-candid-boozy-photos.html#ixzz0laX8a9Tm

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...ntials-candid-boozy-photos.html#ixzz0laX63dfI
 

Kreuzader

Member
Furret said:
I don't ever remember them being conclusively defeated in the old series, not even when the Doctor was actively trying to wipe them all out in Genesis of the Daleks.

There was "Evil of the Daleks", although at the time that serial was produced it was a sincere effort to provide a conclusion to the Daleks' apperances in Doctor Who.
 
The idea of a genetically pure Dalek interested me. I know the middle years of the series had a load of extra Dalek information as well as retconning, but I've just seen the new series and the first few Hartnell years. In the first Dalek episodes, it's said that they were mutated from humanoids. So from that one might think a genetically pure Dalek would be the humanoid form (and would help explain their larger size), but I suppose they mean some post-mutation point they considered perfect.

Also, the Doctor seems over his trouble with Dalek genocide. The Ninth couldn't bring himself to completely off the Daleks, and the Tenth was pissed at his human twin for going for it.

APZonerunner said:
I wouldn't say all of them, but I think resetting the human awareness of Alien Invasions is absolutely necessary. It makes it difficult to tell modern-day stories.
Trouble with this is, what about the spinoff shows?
Reknoc said:
All I could think of when the new Daleks appeared were some kind of Dalek Super Sentai team. :I
Here too. I kept looking for a green one.
 

maharg

idspispopd
JoshuaJSlone said:
The idea of a genetically pure Dalek interested me. I know the middle years of the series had a load of extra Dalek information as well as retconning, but I've just seen the new series and the first few Hartnell years. In the first Dalek episodes, it's said that they were mutated from humanoids. So from that one might think a genetically pure Dalek would be the humanoid form (and would help explain their larger size), but I suppose they mean some post-mutation point they considered perfect.

See Genesis of the Daleks, which became the 'official' origin story of the Daleks and rewrote a lot of what came before. The Daleks were derived from Kaleds with all 'weaknesses' rooted out, so a genetically pure Dalek is the blobs in the transport machines. They exterminated their origin species iirc, except for Davros himself (though that's also a retcon from later, he appears to die in GotD).
 

Shiv47

Member
Can I just add to my earlier moaning about the Daleks being overused, that from Tom Baker's run through to the end of Sylvester McCoy's run, we had five Dalek stories. That's from 1974-89. Fifteen years, five stories. In the new incarnation of the show, we've now had six stories in five years. Even if the Dalek stories occasionally sucked in the old show, and most of them didn't, it was an event when they popped up. Now, my reaction is, again?
 

Jex

Member
Shiv47 said:
Can I just add to my earlier moaning about the Daleks being overused, that from Tom Baker's run through to the end of Sylvester McCoy's run, we had five Dalek stories. That's from 1974-89. Fifteen years, five stories. In the new incarnation of the show, we've now had six stories in five years. Even if the Dalek stories occasionally sucked in the old show, and most of them didn't, it was an event when they popped up. Now, my reaction is, again?

I think/hope Moffat is aware that when you use something so much it loses what made it 'special'.

However, with this whole Time-War backstroy the Daleks have to be the Doctor's arch-enemy, again and again.
 

Thomper

Member
Shiv47 said:
Can I just add to my earlier moaning about the Daleks being overused, that from Tom Baker's run through to the end of Sylvester McCoy's run, we had five Dalek stories. That's from 1974-89. Fifteen years, five stories. In the new incarnation of the show, we've now had six stories in five years. Even if the Dalek stories occasionally sucked in the old show, and most of them didn't, it was an event when they popped up. Now, my reaction is, again?
I've read articles/message board posts saying that the BBC loses the license to using the Daleks in Doctor Who if they're not in every season. I find that pretty hard to believe, but... still, as they *have* been in every season, anyone know if there's some truth to that rumor?
 

maharg

idspispopd
That wouldn't make much sense. Surely they'd have lost the license during the long hiatus or when they *weren't* in every season for most of the series' run. Unless they did and had to renegotiate for the new show.

Anyways, I don't think it's fair to compare old to new in that way. In the old show one of those 'Dalek stories' would have been around 4 whole episodes long. They were shorter episodes, of course, but for eg. Genesis alone was 6 of those episodes long covering 1.5 months of airtime.

The old show's format was just so immensely different.
 

FnordChan

Member
maharg said:
That wouldn't make much sense. Surely they'd have lost the license during the long hiatus or when they *weren't* in every season for most of the series' run. Unless they did and had to renegotiate for the new show.

I seem to recall that they did have to renegotiate with the Terry Nation estate before the new series got rolling, so perhaps annual Dalek outings were part of the contract. Either way, I wouldn't mind seeing the Daleks show up once a season if they hadn't been so badly used. I thought the last episode was pretty dire, though hopefully the newly established Daleks will be put to good use in future episodes. Or, at least, better use.

FnordChan
 

Maiar_m

Member
FnordChan said:
I seem to recall that they did have to renegotiate with the Terry Nation estate before the new series got rolling, so perhaps annual Dalek outings were part of the contract. Either way, I wouldn't mind seeing the Daleks show up once a season if they hadn't been so badly used. I thought the last episode was pretty dire, though hopefully the newly established Daleks will be put to good use in future episodes. Or, at least, better use.

FnordChan
Would't have said it otherwise.
And Karen might look great, but I'm already tired of Amy Pond :( It's just all that giggling and "look how fierce I can act" stuff, she just doesn't seem to ever be able to be dramatic. But that's only three episodes, so consider this precocious moaning.
 

Clevinger

Member
Maiar_m said:
Would't have said it otherwise.
And Karen might look great, but I'm already tired of Amy Pond :( It's just all that giggling and "look how fierce I can act" stuff, she just doesn't seem to ever be able to be dramatic. But that's only three episodes, so consider this precocious moaning.

Yeah. I liked her in the first episode, but for some reason am already put off by her. I think it's something about how fast she delivers most of her lines and her expressions.

It's not that big of a deal, though.
 

justchris

Member
Shiv47 said:
Can I just add to my earlier moaning about the Daleks being overused, that from Tom Baker's run through to the end of Sylvester McCoy's run, we had five Dalek stories. That's from 1974-89. Fifteen years, five stories. In the new incarnation of the show, we've now had six stories in five years. Even if the Dalek stories occasionally sucked in the old show, and most of them didn't, it was an event when they popped up. Now, my reaction is, again?

I completely agree. I feel the same way about the Cybermen. They're great enemies, but you can easily over saturate the story with them. If they could go at least a season without using one or the other, it would be nice.
 
justchris said:
I completely agree. I feel the same way about the Cybermen. They're great enemies, but you can easily over saturate the story with them. If they could go at least a season without using one or the other, it would be nice.

Count your blessings. We could be getting yearly Slitheen episodes.
 

border

Member
FnordChan said:
I seem to recall that they did have to renegotiate with the Terry Nation estate before the new series got rolling, so perhaps annual Dalek outings were part of the contract.

I doubt it is "part of their contract" that they have Dalek episodes once or twice a season. Listening to some of the BBC-insiders talk at conventions the mentality is more like "We're paying for these characters, so we really ought to use them." So there's just this sense that they need to get their money's worth out of the contract.
 

Thomper

Member
maharg said:
That wouldn't make much sense. Surely they'd have lost the license during the long hiatus or when they *weren't* in every season for most of the series' run. Unless they did and had to renegotiate for the new show.

Anyways, I don't think it's fair to compare old to new in that way. In the old show one of those 'Dalek stories' would have been around 4 whole episodes long. They were shorter episodes, of course, but for eg. Genesis alone was 6 of those episodes long covering 1.5 months of airtime.

The old show's format was just so immensely different.
As FnordChan said, the BBC nearly lost the rights to Daleks and had to renegotiate with Terry Nation's estate. There's some more info here:
http://www.shannonsullivan.com/drwho/serials/2005f.html
 

RetroMG

Member
maharg said:
That wouldn't make much sense. Surely they'd have lost the license during the long hiatus or when they *weren't* in every season for most of the series' run. Unless they did and had to renegotiate for the new show.

Assuming the arrangement was for once a year in the new show, they've done it.
2005 - Dalek, Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways
2006 - Army of Ghosts/Doomsday
2007 - Evolution of the Daleks
2008 - Stolen Earth/Journey's End
2009 - Waters of Mars (Adelaide's Flashback)
2010 - Victory of the Daleks

But, as someone else said, it could be that they're trying not to waste the money they've spent on these props. As the new Daleks look like they probably cost even more, I wouldn't be shocked if they show up even more often.

That said, I don't mind regular Dalek appearances. I'd much rather have them than Cybermen. The big thing I hope they catch onto is that not every Dalek story has to be this huge, end of the world fiasco. I liked this one. It felt like it was on a much smaller scale. Also, the Daleks seemed cleverer in this one than they have in the past. Maybe that was just me.
 

Empty

Member
Finally got round to watching the most recent episode on iplayer. (obviously spoilers)

Enjoyable, but not anywhere near great, or very good. I really liked the setup to the episode, the first 15 minutes or so, where it fet like it was going to be a different breed of Dalek episode with less end of the world stuff and more low key drama, but alas. The dynamic between the doctor and the friendly dalek was well done, the highlight being the scene where he starts angrily attacking the dalek and Matt Smith gave that performance real intensity, but all their interactions were gripping. It also took advantage of the setting well, i loved the shot of the zeppelins over london, and the way that Amy captured the joy of being able to actually see the cabinet war rooms during the blitz was great. However once it moved into a more typical Dalek story i was let down. The spitfires in space thing was awful, the star wars rip battle sequence felt out of place with the rest of the episode, the whole concept was silly to the point of distraction and it didn't make sense that the robot guy would suddenly be able to turn drawings into a working space spitfire in about a minute. The rest of the story was quite unsatisfying, with the Dalek's launching their new line of coloured consoles losing any impact given how ridiculous yellow Dalek's were. I don't understand why they bothered turning on the lights in london, especially given that they had the tech to destroy the entire world, and it all felt rather inconsequential, with little tension, drama or intrigue; i just didn't care about the story by the end. An example being how useless the plot point was with the one character losing her husband, it seemed to be there for padding, or in an attempt to create some consequence, but it just felt pointless and hurt the pacing of the episode, which was quite poor to begin with.

The character stuff was all good though, loved Matt Smith again, the use of the biscuit as a bluff had me smiling as did the line about dalek bones; amy was really good, her interactions with the doctor especially, though they need to be more subtle with the Dr-Pond relationship stuff. The robot mechanic guy was endearing and his ending was handled very nicely i thought (character wise, in terms of story it was mind-numbingly stupid), and though he moved too much into over the top cheese at times, i did like their Churchill. Decent and fairly enjoyable episode because of the opening, some of the dialogue writing and the characters, but could have delivered way way way more on the plot and was unfortunately part of the continuing neutering and over-use of the daleks.

The crack in the sky stuff is getting into Bad Wolf levels of bad, i must say. Please stop Moffat. Oh and, next weeks episode looks so fucking good from the trailer.
 
FnordChan said:
I'm comfortable with that, especially if they're cruising around yelling "WE ARE HERE TO PROMOTE ENTERTAINMENT SOFT-WARE! YOU WILL PLAY THE GAME!"

That's pretty much what happened.:lol Plus they discovered they like having their plungers tickled, and claimed they don't have the power to save Sheffield Wednesday :lol

Also, Saturday's episode is meant to be really good. :)
 

mclem

Member
RetroGamer42 said:
That said, I don't mind regular Dalek appearances. I'd much rather have them than Cybermen. The big thing I hope they catch onto is that not every Dalek story has to be this huge, end of the world fiasco. I liked this one. It felt like it was on a much smaller scale. Also, the Daleks seemed cleverer in this one than they have in the past. Maybe that was just me.

That's one of the big things about Daleks that we've not really seen since, well, Dalek; they're *devious*.

We haven't *really* had all that many Cybermen stories, although it feels like a lot more since they were so central to series 2; the only Cybermen story that's not in series 2 was The Next Doctor.

With the Cybermen, I think they're missing the body horror aspect of them; it's far too easy to just write them off as robots.
 

justchris

Member
mclem said:
That's one of the big things about Daleks that we've not really seen since, well, Dalek; they're *devious*.

We haven't *really* had all that many Cybermen stories, although it feels like a lot more since they were so central to series 2; the only Cybermen story that's not in series 2 was The Next Doctor.

With the Cybermen, I think they're missing the body horror aspect of them; it's far too easy to just write them off as robots.

Yes, the Daleks are one of the few races to figure out time travel. They're clever, intelligent and driven. I think too many of the episodes have focused on how destructive they are, without really driving home the point that the reason they're so scary is that they're really damn good at it.
 

Kowak

Banned
Never got to watch the first episode until just now and WOW. I was not sure if i would like Smith, but his performance was great and left me wanting more, of which I will get now episode 2 and 3. I really hope it continues this way.

Although, I didnt like the whole bit when the camera scanned around on people in the park.
 

RetroMG

Member
mclem said:
With the Cybermen, I think they're missing the body horror aspect of them; it's far too easy to just write them off as robots.

I think you've hit the nail right on the head. The scariest thing about the Cybermen is that they are us. Now, if they used that concept image floating around the net with the Cyberman who looked like a mummy with metal implants, that would be scary. But as is, they don't rate scarier than the Daleks to me.

But I'm weird, I guess. They say the Weeping Angels are terrifying, and I don't see it. They ship you to another time zone. In a show where the main character is a time traveller, I don't see the problem.

Now Vastha Nerada. The Empty Child. The Thing from Midnight. THOSE are scary monsters.

Lard said:

Sorry. I call 'em like I see 'em.

Kowak said:
Although, I didnt like the whole bit when the camera scanned around on people in the park.

Doesn't seem like it's going to be a thing. Just that one time, to bring across to new viewers, "The Doctor is very clever, and he sees things just a little differently."
 

OMG Aero

Member
RetroGamer42 said:
But, as someone else said, it could be that they're trying not to waste the money they've spent on these props. As the new Daleks look like they probably cost even more, I wouldn't be shocked if they show up even more often.
Yeah, as soon as redesigned Daleks appeared, my first thought was "Well I guess Daleks are in the last two episodes again then since they paid for new props".
 

Regulus Tera

Romanes Eunt Domus
Moffat's blog:

Steven Moffat said:
Good Doctor Who monsters have to come back - it's a rule. But my feeling is that you always have to bring back a monster and do something different with it. So although Blink was a very popular episode, it was also a very spooky, cerebral episode.

These Weeping Angels episodes are really the polar opposite, these are like a big action movie - albeit an action movie with bad guys that can't actually move! It's a very different feeling.

Last time, the implication was that they were hiding out on earth, as scavengers who are just surviving - they didn't have a big terrible plan. This time there really is a big terrible plan which goes beyond mere survival, and is almost like a war.

The best way to explain the difference between Blink and these two episodes would be to say that I think the best conceived movie sequel ever was Aliens following Alien. It took the same monster into an entirely different type of film.

That is very roughly the model for this. Blink was a small, low-key one and this is the highly coloured, loud, action-movie one.

Filming this scene (above) was a completely surreal experience. I'm used to the fact that in television the first day of filming will probably be something fairly inconsequential and involve a minor character getting shot, or a close up of a hand or something. It's not usually something big and iconic.

But, by sheer chance, the very first scene that we shot involved The Doctor and Amy arriving on a planet with River Song and looking at the crashed spaceship.

So it couldn't have been more iconic - the Tardis was there! It was also perfect paparazzi fodder because it had everything you could possibly have, which wasn't intentional actually.

I vividly remember arriving on that beach. I saw the Tardis in the distance, which was very much the culmination of all that time waiting to get started - which you could argue was two and a half years, or 40 years for me.


First walking onto a big, grand, typical Doctor Who location and seeing the bright blue box waiting was so odd for me. We'd be so careful up to that point, and not put the Doctor Who name on any of our signs but still the paparazzi and fans found us within about 20 minutes!

I was stood on set with my phone, looking at pictures of myself which fans had taken already on the web. On one occasion I saw a photograph of myself watching the filming, which had been uploaded so quickly that I hadn't moved from the position I was in by the time it was on the web!

My other memory is of this day ending early because the tide came in unexpectedly. I did slightly wonder if this would be the shape of things to come.

That scene on the beach was about three pages longer originally. The rain on the second day of filming was so torrential that I suggested I could cut three pages, provided I could relocate them in a new Tardis scene.

I ended up adding the scene which sits immediately after the credits, with River flying the Tardis better than The Doctor. That's a lovely scene, and a much better start to the show, but it's all a consequence of torrential rain and the tide coming in.

On the second day I ended up sat in the production van, very grumpy, hastily rewriting scenes. The story of those two days is really about the plunge from the extraordinary romantic beginning with the Tardis and the big iconic scene, to the reality of actually trying to film it. It was a great lesson in having to cut pages and deal with the reality of the challenges we face.

Later on in the episode there's a really nice accidental moment where The Doctor hangs from the strap on the ceiling and it breaks. The very first time Matt did it, it was an accident - he wasn't supposed to do that, it's just typical Matt, breaking everything - but the director liked it, so he kept it in.

The version we see on screen isn't the real accident, it's him doing it on purpose, but I do think it is very funny. I think particularly the looks from the girls and the fact that he doesn't mention it at all - he just tries to carry it off as a sort of Stan Laurel moment. It's extremely charming.

I think the thing that has come back with Matt is the idea that The Doctor is a bit silly at times. He's a slightly silly old buffer in a few ways.



We find out he's a bit rubbish at flying the Tardis and he trips over his feet and breaks things. Both Chris and David were quite cool Doctors, and while Matt certainly isn't short on cool, he has an amazing clumsiness. He's halfway between Indiana Jones and Stan Laurel.

The Doctor has a belief that he is cooler than he actually is. For instance in that first episode where he yells "Who da man?" and everybody cringes.

It's those moments that really show where the old man comes through in Matt's performance, because there is nothing wrong with a young man shouting that, the awkwardness is when your dad tries to say it. That's The Doctor through and through.

He's in Los Angeles at the moment, by the way. I hope some GAFfers manage to find him.
 
Tokubetsu said:
Daleks would win.

But they only have one eye, so they'd blink sooner. Humans could at least keep one eye open at all times, and just wink at the Weeping Angels. and back away (or mock them by standing in front of them and winking)

Weeping Angels >>> Humans >>> Daleks
 
as a long time who fan, I was starting to get burnt out on the new series (I think it started to get too epic of the week for me). That and the mostly awful End of time specials made it hard for me to rewatch (still only seen season 4 and the specials once each).

But, I am loving the Moffat era. Watched the Dalek story and it wasn't awful. I think the budget cut has actually made the show far more watchable. But then, I'm used to Doctor Who that's not trying so hard to compete with movies.

One thing though- cute as a button but what's with the giant bags under Karen Gillan's eyes. get some sleep in girl.
 

Raydeen

Member
Axiom said:
Last I saw of Katy Manning she was hosting silly segments on UKTV and having one of those annoying old lady tiny dog fetishes.

If I'd have known that deporting her from Australia would land her back on-screen as a companion I'd have never let her leave. Sorry everyone.

Honestly though, Jo? Who gives a fuck about Jo, she posed naked with a dalek and people still don't give a fuck. If you want an idiot companion there's better options, if you want sex symbol companions there's better options - hell if you want companions to piss people off Mel would lead to far more amusing hatred. Jo was just bland and dumb.

It's really a shame such a bland companion basically defines the Pertwee era, when she's sandwiched between companions actually worth a damn.

Bit harsh, but I'd rather have Romana mk2, Ace or Tegan. Just not Mel...
 
BluWacky said:
What makes you think that Daleks blink? They have no eyelids, after all.

The new style Daleks have a real eye at the end of their stalk. It should blink, otherwise there would be loads of Daleks driving about with sore eyes.
 
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