Support NeoGAF

[The Technomancer]

Californians and south carolinians are different people with different cultures. Liberal policies like rode vs wade should not be forced on conservative christian states. Same for forced alien foreign immigration and gay rights. In my view healthcare should also be a states rights issue. same for what states want seen on tv or listened to in music. There should be states rights because certain states have different local standards, as ron paul and mitt romney have pointed out.

Right, which most of us agree to to an extent. But some of us think that issues like healthcare and abortion are fundamental human rights issues.

 

[GaimeGuy]

It's Roe vs Wade, and it isn't a policy, it's a court ruling on a woman's right to privacy.

 

[SomeDude]

Your argument is a poor one. Some states having 'different local standards' does not allow them to break the constitution, nor does it allow them to infringe on the inherent individual liberty of those inhabiting said state. You're literally arguing that states should be allowed to determine discriminatory laws because of 'different cultures', even though what that really means is that states should be allowed to disenfranchise huge percentages of their population, even if it's against the constitution.

And judging by the color in your comment, you at least partially feel this way because there are CHRISTIANS in some of these states who would prefer to live a hateful life? What about all the other religions? What about the atheists? Are they forced to shut up if the christian majority decides their religion should dictate the laws in the state? Is separation of church and state now something that is only incidental, and should move aside because of "cultural differences"?

You've not thought this through, it's clear now.

then why not solve this crisis by moving to a different state? I'm sure that there are some conservative christians in San Francisco that have to tolerate the liberal agenda in states like california or very liberal cities like san francisco (which is huge on things like gay rights).

North Carolinians, the majority of them, voted against gay rights because of there belief that marriage should be between a man and and a woman. I believe in this as well. But none of us are forcing states like california, New York or massachussets to think this way. Because we believe in different local standards.

 

[SomeDude]

Herp de derp. See, this is what I was talking about. Do you believe for an instant that if it were politically/Constitutionally possible to block gay marriage federally, any of the people crying about states' rights would hesitate to do it?


Also, think of it this way: maybe when gay rights are forced on the backwards states, your beloved secession will finally happen!

Things like immigration are and important issue as well. Who wants to be colonized by people who have nothing in common with the native population of said state?

 

[fallagin]

Oh god, was doing great, and then I got taken out by the prostitute! She gave me disease.

LOL, if your having trouble figuring it out here is the flow chart. Basically do everything that a good conservative would do.

Edit: Well except for the prostitute of course.

 

[The Technomancer]

Things like immigration are and important issue as well. Who wants to be colonized by people who have nothing in common with the native population of said state?

You're making it sound like you essentially want the US to be fifty separate countries.

 

[SomeDude]

You're making it sound like you essentially want the US to be fifty separate countries.

Look at what happened int he course of history when certain countries embrace multiculturalism. It gets very dark and very ugly.

 

[The Technomancer]

Look at what happened int he course of history when certain countries embrace multiculturalism. It gets very dark and very ugly.

Sorry, which examples are you referring to?

 

[Amir0x]

then why not solve this crisis by moving to a different state? I'm sure that there are some conservative christians in San Francisco that have to tolerate the liberal agenda in states like california or very liberal cities like san francisco (which is huge on things like gay rights).

North Carolinians, the majority of them, voted against gay rights because of there belief that marriage should be between a man and and a woman. I believe in this as well. But none of us are forcing states like california, New York or massachussets to think this way. Because we believe in different local standards.

First of all, there's several things to address here.

It's factually untrue that "we" - if the "we" here is you talking about the modern conservative movement - believe in different local standards. That's just what they tell themselves when they're trying to pretend they're sticking to their principles.

The Republican standard bearer in this election, Mitt Romney, has now reiterated several times that he's not just against gay marriage, he's for a constitutional amendment that defines marriage as between a man and a woman. This is enshrining a factually discriminatory law into the constitution, something so frightening it should send shivers down your spine.

Secondly, once again, it doesn't matter if religious fucking retards or some voters in NC decided they are against gay marriage. Simply makes no difference that they are hateful, disgusting human beings who deserve no quarter. The fact is that infringing on the ability for gays to pursue an equal bit of human happiness, infringing on their individual liberties, because a book written by 2000 year old nutcase goat herders says it's wrong is absurd and a violation of the constitution, which demands separation of church and state, and expects life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for -all- citizens. The only deciding factor should be "are gays allowed to pursue their happiness on equal terms as straight individuals?" The answer is currently no in many states. It doesn't even matter if being gay is a choice or not - if that CHOICE is between consenting adults and hurts no one but themselves (not saying it does hurt them, since it factually doesn't, but let's just say it did for the sake of the argument), it's not your right to say otherwise. Gays being married would have zero impact on the ability for straights to marry. Therefore, the current laws are based on hate only, not rational readings of the constitution or logical, thought-out positions.

It wasn't too long again that the definition of marriage changed in this country before - interracial marriage was banned in many states. It had to be FORCED to be overturned on these sick, hateful people.

Thirdly, the idea that you think that people of different cultures should be forced to flee states with hateful, discriminatory laws rather than those states being forced not to break the constitution with their hate is disgusting. You probably would have supported Abe Lincoln's idea to ship African Americans out to their own country so that the poor ultra conservative nutcase whites wouldn't have to intermingle. What a horrific slippery slope you support. THINK before you say.

Fourthly, what "liberal agendas" that are also breaking the constitution and/or supporting hate are San Francisco currently forcing upon the rest of the population? Hm? Name one.

Look at what happened int he course of history when certain countries embrace multiculturalism. It gets very dark and very ugly.

Oh shit, I see where this is going now. Guess my assumptions about you aren't even really assumptions.

 

[SomeDude]

Oh man, are you seriously going full Nazi?

How so? if someone was gay in my state (and if we had laws agains it) I would let them freely move to New York. My whole argument is for local standards.


and I strongly disagree with using violence. My take on war has always been if only your defending yourself.

 

[Chumly]

Things like immigration are and important issue as well. Who wants to be colonized by people who have nothing in common with the native population of said state?

So you would be ok with California making up their own immigration rules? We're going to have a massive influx of citizens soon!

 

[Amir0x]

How so? if someone was gay in my state (and if we had laws agains it) I would let them freely move to New York. My whole argument is for local standards.

How kind of you, you'd find it within your hateful interior to "allow" gays to flee from your state! You're so generous!

Also, quite convenient that you skipped right over the post that eviscerated your positions. Get the fuck out of here if you're not going to address points.

 

[Oblivion]

Is Obama probably the top 5 most liberal presidents we've ever had?

There at least 5 REPUBLICAN presidents that come to mind that are FAR more liberal than Obama, and that's not even taking the Democratic ones into account.

Obama would probably be in the 15-25 spot in terms of liberalness.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Look at what happened int he course of history when certain countries embrace multiculturalism. It gets very dark and very ugly.

I hope you stop for a second to fully contemplate the implications of such a statement.

Let me walk through it with you.
okay, so... the acceptance of foreign cultures has lead to very bad times for countries in the past, a loss of quality in their living.

If accepting foreign cultures is the cause of this, what should a society strive towards?
the logical answer is a purified national identity that excludes foreign influences, rejects outsiders from intermingling with those who share the national identity, and preserves the national identity of the masses at the expense of the individual.

This is the philosophy behind so many tyrannical and caste-based regimes throughout human history. In its most extreme forms, you end up with countries like Nazi Germany or North Korea. The Soviet Union is a more politically-motivated version of this (Stalin didn't care about a national identity as much as weeding out everyone that wasn't on his side, labeling them as revolutionaries and party-infiltrators, but the arguments used are very similar).

As a Jew whose family has roots in eastern europe and russia during the pogroms of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, your post sends a chill down my spine.

I hope you reflect on what you have said. The logic that follows from such a presumption doesn't lead society down a very happy road.1

 

[Particle Physicist]

if by top 5 most liberal presidents you mean top 5 most conservative, then maybe it'd be closer to accurate

Don't exaggerate the other way please. Obama is basically center right.

 

[Amir0x]

Don't exaggerate the other way please. Obama is basically center right.

It's not an exaggeration. I said one of the statements would be closer to accurate than the other, not that it would be entirely accurate in of itself. Obama is more conservative than he is liberal.

 

[GaimeGuy]

It's not an exaggeration. I said one of the statements would be closer to accurate than the other, not that it would be entirely accurate in of itself. Obama is more conservative than he is liberal.

But he's a democrat! There's no way you can be anything BUT liberal if you're a part of the democratic party! Since obama is a democrat, Obama is liberal. And since Obama is liberal, that means every policy he supports is liberal, and every policy he opposes is conservative. Yep. </American logic>

 

[Al-ibn Kermit]

Look at what happened int he course of history when certain countries embrace multiculturalism. It gets very dark and very ugly.

Sorry, which examples are you referring to?

California prolly.

 

[Stinkles]

Californians and south carolinians are different people with different cultures. Liberal policies like rode vs wade should not be forced on conservative christian states. Same for forced alien foreign immigration and gay rights. In my view healthcare should also be a states rights issue. same for what states want seen on tv or listened to in music. There should be states rights because certain states have different local standards, as ron paul and mitt romney have pointed out.

I don't even know where to start. It's like, you could have gone with liquor licensing, or gambling or something, but nope, straight to oppressing people you don't like.

 

[Particle Physicist]

It's not an exaggeration. I said one of the statements would be closer to accurate than the other, not that it would be entirely accurate in of itself. Obama is more conservative than he is liberal.

Oh, I guess so. lol

 

[Oblivion]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfLsSg9wZlE&feature=player_embedded

 

[GaimeGuy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfLsSg9wZlE&feature=player_embedded

Jesus christ.

 

[Amir0x]

But he's a democrat! There's no way you can be anything BUT liberal if you're a part of the democratic party! Since obama is a democrat, Obama is liberal. And since Obama is liberal, that means every policy he supports is liberal, and every policy he opposes is conservative. Yep. </American logic>

it must be infuriating for Obama. He's in office, his politics are pretty easy to define, and yet he has an entire bleating group of politicians who used to support the very policies he decided to push saying "no" to everything he does.

 

[makingmusic476]

I don't think so. Everyone gets sick, so it's only right that everyone pay into a universal pot. Not everyone is good for college or university, nor should that be a goal for every single person. Therefore, it's ridiculous to ask taxpayers to fund the entire college education of the percentage of people who college is good for.

We definitely need to tackle the insane costs of college, don't get me wrong, but taxing everyone to the extent that college would be basically fully subsidized by taxpayers is dumb.
.

I agree that not everyone can or should go to college. However, many can and definitely should go to college, and there's a net benefit to society if they do. Cost of entry should not be a barrier for these people.

I'm short on time now, but I may make a more compelling argument for this that more closely compares it to other government investments like universal healthcare when I get off of work.

 

[Oblivion]

Holy shit, has this been posted?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ez0AMf2U5RU

This woman..dear god... o_0

 

[tranciful]

Holy shit, has this been posted?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ez0AMf2U5RU

This woman..dear god... o_0

This is hilarious

Spoiler

ly sad

 

[SomeDude]

I hope you stop for a second to fully contemplate the implications of such a statement.

Let me walk through it with you.
okay, so... the acceptance of foreign cultures has lead to very bad times for countries in the past, a loss of quality in their living.

If accepting foreign cultures is the cause of this, what should a society strive towards?
the logical answer is a purified national identity that excludes foreign influences, rejects outsiders from intermingling with those who share the national identity, and preserves the national identity of the masses at the expense of the individual.

This is the philosophy behind so many tyrannical and caste-based regimes throughout human history. In its most extreme forms, you end up with countries like Nazi Germany or North Korea. The Soviet Union is a more politically-motivated version of this (Stalin didn't care about a national identity as much as weeding out everyone that wasn't on his side, labeling them as revolutionaries and party-infiltrators, but the arguments used are very similar).

As a Jew whose family has roots in eastern europe and russia during the pogroms of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, your post sends a chill down my spine.

I hope you reflect on what you have said. The logic that follows from such a presumption doesn't lead society down a very happy road.1

What about Israel? And why shouldn't the isrealis embrace there inheritance?

 

[Al-ibn Kermit]

What about Israel? And why shouldn't the isrealis embrace there inheritance?

What about Florida? It has sizable minorities of Cubans, Jews, and old people. I would like to know what you think should happen there if multiculturalism doesn't work so well.

 

[GaimeGuy]

What about Israel? And why shouldn't the isrealis embrace there inheritance?

I have no idea why you're bringing up Israel. The idea of Zionism (I'm not talking the settler types, but simply the longing for a jewish homeland in the ancient kingdom of israel) was based on providing a place of refuge for Jews, not on Jewish excellence or prosperity at the expense of others.

Plus, you do realize that there are frequent incidents of assault from orthodox jews to conservative/reform jews in Israel, right? Based on the orthodox jews seeing them as "false" jews?

You seem to be confusing shared identity with purification.

Almost all ethiopian jews (Beta Israel) migrated to Israel, but they still share a cultural heritage from their ethiopian communities. An israel that rejected multiculturalism would not have welcomed them with open arms, or let their culture prosper.

 

[PantherLotus]

Holy shit somedude is at it again. Between his arguments for secession, states' rights, and his absurdly slanted verbiage ... you guys are either talking to a KKK member or one who has a whole lot of KKK member friends.

Don't believe the nonsense about "no violence unless I'm threatened," especially when that same logic is suggesting "multiculturalism" is somehow threatening.

 

[Jooney]

I will never understand those who advocate states’ rights the idea of moving to a different state when the state enacts laws that you are discriminatory towards you. Put aside the absurdity of the sentiment for a moment. How does it work in a practical manner?

Who is going to employ you in this job market?
Who would sell their home now when it’s undervalued?
What about all your friends and family?

It’s such a mind-numbingly dumb proposition.

---

Btw, thanks Amirox for the thoughtful and well-structured arguments. Never has so much nail met so much head.

 

[kehs]

Holy shit, has this been posted?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ez0AMf2U5RU

This woman..dear god... o_0

The first minute and a half literally felt like ten minutes, I couldn't keep going.

If you're too stupid to explain a viewpoint, it shouldn't be your viewpoint.

 

[Chumly]

What about Israel? And why shouldn't the isrealis embrace there inheritance?

What does Israel have to do with anything and what are you trying to refer to by them?

 

[Amir0x]

Btw, thanks Amirox for the thoughtful and well-structured arguments. Never has so much nail met so much head.

thanks, although I suspect the nail literally went through SomeDude's head and lobotomized him, since he seemed utterly incapable of responding to any of the points intelligently

 

[PhoenixDark]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfLsSg9wZlE&feature=player_embedded

We (Americans) have a dream from our forefathers. Obama has a dream from his father. I see what you did there

 

[Jooney]

Holy shit, has this been posted?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ez0AMf2U5RU

This woman..dear god... o_0

Anderson Cooper using his fancy college book-learnin’ to trick a humble salt-of-the-earth Christian. What a snob.

 

[ErasureAcer]

Holy shit, has this been posted?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ez0AMf2U5RU

This woman..dear god... o_0

Thanks for this. The lady didn't make one good point in 4 1/2 minutes. lol. Anderson kept moving the conversation along and she asked "why do you keep asking the same question?" haha. It's like she's not even listening or thinking for that matter. And to top it off her accent is annoying and she's fugly.

 

[Amir0x]

Holy shit, has this been posted?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ez0AMf2U5RU

This woman..dear god... o_0

it's so funny because he keeps pinning her to a wall on their selective reading of the Bible, and she keeps stuttering and getting stuck and then being forced to double down and make it seem EVEN WORSE

 

[Jooney]

The overlooked aspect of this is that she was pretty much at the cusp of playing the media persecution / victim card. To hold a set of bigoted beliefs is one thing. But to hold a set of bigoted beliefs and be unable to explain them at the behest of the most simplest of enquiries is another beast entirely.

 

[SomeDude]

thanks, although I suspect the nail literally went through SomeDude's head and lobotomized him, since he seemed utterly incapable of responding to any of the points intelligently

What does it matter? You think I'm a bigot so obviously you have different standards as to what states should and shouldn't do.

 

[Chumly]

What does it matter? You think I'm a bigot so obviously you have different standards as to what states should and shouldn't do.

I would like to know how you think multiculturalism gets "very dark".

 

[Jooney]

We (Americans) have a dream from our forefathers. Obama has a dream from his father. I see what you did there

Dinesh D’souza. Urgh.

Seriously, fuck these people who are making bank by continuously peddling this insinuation that Obama is “the other” to gullible fools.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Dinesh D’souza. Urgh.

Seriously, fuck these people who are making bank by continuously peddling this insinuation that Obama is “the other” to gullible fools.

I'm amazed he hasn't been shot yet. I remember around the end of his first year in office it was reported that the secret service was dealing with 5x as many death threats as as they did under Bush.

 

[Hobbestetrician]

I'm amazed he hasn't been shot yet. I remember around the end of his first year in office it was reported that the secret service was dealing with 5x as many death threats as as they did under Bush.

Imagine how many it will be in his first year after re-election. The Nuge is already on record.

 

[Jimothy]

Just watched that Biden speech to the troops. That was one of the most heartfelt things I've ever seen a politician say.

It feels so weird having two decent human beings holding the two highest offices in the country. Makes me sort of proud.

 

[Amir0x]

What does it matter? You think I'm a bigot so obviously you have different standards as to what states should and shouldn't do.

Even a bigot must have reasons for the absurdities he/she believes in. If you choose to wade into such topics with your thoughts, and someone responds in detail telling you why what you're saying may not make much sense, and then you ignore all those details... people would begin to think you're not just a poor, misguided bigot, but a very specific type of poster who is generally frowned upon in forum discussions.

It's one thing to be for states rights; it's quite another to start talking KKK propaganda and then cloak it under the guise of states rates.

 

[Oblivion]

Here's some good news for team science:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/05/27/science-defeats-creationism-in-oklahoma-in-flawless-victory/

Buncha creationism bills managed to quietly get killed in Tennessee.

 

[jaxword]

Just watched that Biden speech to the troops. That was one of the most heartfelt things I've ever seen a politician say.

It feels so weird having two decent human beings holding the two highest offices in the country. Makes me sort of proud.

I don't think Obama's that decent a person, he's rather a corporate sell out, and his legacy will probably be the lousy economy that didn't get better under his watch. Though he could still make a lot of change in the next 4 years...



Still, he's got swagger.

 

[PantherLotus]

Just watched that Biden speech to the troops. That was one of the most heartfelt things I've ever seen a politician say.

It feels so weird having two decent human beings holding the two highest offices in the country. Makes me sort of proud.

Where'd you see the video? I only saw the transcript.

 

[Amir0x]

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/47569634/#47569634 - Biden Speech