This is what I don't get. The government has fucking aircraft carriers! Unless the Chinese or Russians were supplying the American True Patriot Liberation force with advanced weaponry, joe six-shooter's militia won't last a week.
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PoliGAF 2013 |OT1| Never mind, Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
- Thread starter ClovingWestbrook
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This is what I don't get. The government has fucking aircraft carriers! Unless the Chinese or Russians were supplying the American True Patriot Liberation force with advanced weaponry, joe six-shooter's militia won't last a week.
ClassyPenguin
Banned
If it is repeated so many times it becomes real.
Rocket Scientist
Member
Lol why was i surprised it was this site.
On the subject of the dismantling of our government's ability to enforce gun laws, the opening segment on last evening's Rachel Maddow does a great job of providing context for those who may not remember the 90s as well as the decade after. It does leave out some of the neutering of the ATF that Jon Stewart referenced, but definitely worth watching nonetheless.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#50502020
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#50502020
You do realize the biggest populations of gun owners come from military/police right? Who in their right mind is ever going to listen to the order to bomb US citizens?
It's not as if this militia is going to be sitting in an open field waiting to get bombed.
Where are those aircraft carriers and abrams tanks and F-22 raptors against Iraqi insurgents who hole up in cities and buildings?
Some food for thought, rough estimations are 47% of households in America contain at least one gun, with around 52 million people owning around 260-300 million guns.
Chances are, someone on your street owns a gun.
Now I don't want to sound so alarmist, but if a militia was to form up against the government, there has to be a reason right? And the military is one of the most conservative institutions we have, you'd see mass mutinies and AWOL's were that to happen, not to mention most armed forces bases are also in conservative areas.
Enough of that kind of talk though, this is PoliGAF, just saying that as ridiculous as it is to think of the government falling and militia's rising, it's just as ridiculous to think of F-22's and drones starting up to bomb Cletus and his militia with their 9 mm.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
Even better. I'll put it on my wall next to the one by Willie Lynch.
EYEL1NER
Member
For anyone who does a lot of fact-checking, do you guys have an easy method of attributing quotes to people or anything? Or does anyone know if this site is BS or not: http://meetthenra.org/
I spent a couple hours at work following links and sources and then running them against other sites, newspapers, etc. But I hardly made a dent in the information there and I really don't want to spread around information that could be false if I can help it. Everything I searched for seemed to checked out though.
I'm not asking anyone to do work for me, but maybe some of you have stumbled across it before and would know anything about it?
I spent a couple hours at work following links and sources and then running them against other sites, newspapers, etc. But I hardly made a dent in the information there and I really don't want to spread around information that could be false if I can help it. Everything I searched for seemed to checked out though.
I'm not asking anyone to do work for me, but maybe some of you have stumbled across it before and would know anything about it?
The Librarian
Banned
If the US military is never going to bomb US citizens, then what's the point in having guns?
Rocket Scientist
Member
Launch party with a huge orgy, booze and drugs. I hope poligaf likes sausages.
We'll meet at the log cabin.
Create it, I guess?
Do we have a name yet?
I'd create it on Wordpress or something, but I've been swamped the last few days, and that'll continue on into late tomorrow. Not sure if I'll get time tonight at all.
The Librarian
Banned
Name it and PD's section first.
I'm partial to deadheat.com or virtualdeadheat.com. It's general enough to where it works for just about any political topic and it doesn't feel like its an inside joke (even though it is) that will be uninviting to outsiders. It mocks beltway press and most politically knowledgeable people would get it.
Any other reccomendations? Perhaps we should vote.
Any other reccomendations? Perhaps we should vote.
I wasn't a huge fan of it beforehand, but when put like that I don't mind it. I'm a bit more in favor of just deadheat rather than virtualdeadheat.
Rocket Scientist
Member
Anyone who posts after this post must include one suggestion for a name in their post! We should have a week of voting time after compiling is done. Compiling should last until Sunday midnight Pacific time. /suggestion
name: poligaffes
name: poligaffes
I never quite understand why people think that the US armed forces would never fire upon revolting citizens. Such a claim ignores not only world history, but even the history of the United States. Maybe people like to believe that such events are extraordinary and don't apply to us?
We have the real and demonstrated threat of domestic terrorism from the survivalist and militia movements, and their actions are rooted in conspiratorial thought.
gutter_trash
Banned
thanks!
it is true that people have a bad case of short term memory amnesia.
the 90s OMG LOL
but you got extremists who defended nuts like David Koresh (Waco, TX) and Timothy McVeigh eeesh
Because it depends on who those revolting citizens are... Are they citizens who are fed up of a tyrannical and overbearing government or are they lunatic citizens who don't want to accept we live in a new time and there are new rules in society.
Also, you have to remember, the US armed forces have historically been the most conservative institutions we have. With regards to gun control and militias, most servicemen and women make up the largest numbers of gun owners we have, coupled with uniformed police officers. So when it comes time to "take away guns" are these people going to go and enforce something they don't believe in?
The United States of America is in a unique place in human history. Never before has such a diverse country, with near hyperpower capability existed. It is economically, socially, culturally, and militarily the most dominant force on the planet. Suffice to say, I find it very laughable that any time in the near or far future, will there come a scenario when the US government or President, authorize military strikes on revolting US citizens on US soil. A much more believeable scenario is the government falling and America balkanizing itself into smaller states.
People use the "predator drones attacking Cletus" lines to highlight just how ridiculous the idea of a militia attacking our "tyrannical government" because of a proposed ban on the future manufacture of military grade weapons is. There will be no Civil War over this issue; no revolt. We survived an assault weapons ban before and there's no reason to believe that this one will lead to some sort of social upheaval.
Entertaining the idea is feeding into the nutty fantasies of some of these people. We shouldn't even bother.
Entertaining the idea is feeding into the nutty fantasies of some of these people. We shouldn't even bother.
EYEL1NER
Member
People think that everyone in the military is a conservative who loves shooting guns.
There are of course a lot of conservatives in the military, more probably in two specific branches than the others. But there are also a lot of liberals in the military.
As to percentages? Couldn't really tell you. Military Times (and the various branch's respective Times) all report during election years that their polls show people favor the republican candidate. That is also the Military Times though, which I have never found to be that reputable.
I can tell you that in my time in the Air Force I probably only met two people who for sure voted Republican every time. There were a couple who never stated their political preference, but the majority of people I ever knew or worked with all voted Democrat, wanted to get rid of DADT, recognized that too much is spent on defense (who better to know how goddamn wasteful the military is than people seeing and doing the wasting, lol), and various other things.
As Madness said, it depends on who the people revolting are. The people who were diehard birthers or didn't think the POTUS was eligible and swore up and down they would not defend his orders would of course side with any revolt, but a lot of them made asses out of themselves early on after the election in '08 and were dealt with.
If it is people revolting because President Obama suspended Habeas Corpus, locked down the country in Martial Law for no reason, and was eating babies, then of course the military would not stand by him.
If it was something like we are experiencing right now with fear-mongering from the right about how the country is officially done and that are just waiting for shit to pop off? I would like to think that the majority would still obey the president's orders and defend the country and Constitution (because they would see through the bullshit that 'the Constitution was under attack.').
That is what I would like to think anyway. No way to back that up of course and there are some dumbasses who were a uniform, but I would like to think that the average enlisted man or woman has a level head on their shoulders.
Every rebellion in US history claimed to be citizens fighting against a tyrannical and overbearing federal government. And yet were put down just the same.
I am not sure why you brought this up but I am sure British, Mongolian, and Roman citizens all believed this during their countries zenith too.
I don't think any reasonable person thinks there will be civil war over this issue. I just believe that some people have a romantic view that is completely unsubstantiated.
The ultra conservatives in my office are weird. They were talking about their healthcare, and started ragging on teachers. They were saying they have it just as bad, and if the teachers had the increase they did or something, they'd be rallying in Madison. First off, I highly doubt he has it just as bad. I know for a fact he makes more than quite a bit of teachers. Not sure exactly what, but I'm fairly certain it's pretty good. Not rich, though. Anyway, it was weird because he transitioned straight from that to saying we need to regulate doctors who charge like $2000 per visit.
I just wanted to pipe in and agree and make sure he knew precisely what he was saying he wanted to happen.
I just wanted to pipe in and agree and make sure he knew precisely what he was saying he wanted to happen.
Rocket Scientist
Member
As much as it would have been great to see the look on their faces, it was probably a good idea you didn't say anything lol.
It's really depressing how so many people antagonize teachers. They classify them as individuals who work the easiest hours imaginable doing the easiest job with cushy government pay raises. My wife has to do work at home for hours almost every night and she'd had to buy things out of her pocket several times. She recently had to buy a $100+ toner cartridge for the printer in her classroom because the school refused to buy it. And when she needs something the school will purchase, the process in which she has to request funds for it can take a few weeks before she can actually spend it.
One of the biggest problem with education in America is how little we appreciate and value teachers and frankly, education in general. In the nations that continually top the list of best education systems you'll find that teachers are as respected as doctors.
Seriously. I almost became a teacher, but all the insane work hours and expenses just make it not worth it for me. In NYS you need a masters degree (you can get a job before you have it but you need to be in the process of getting it), the bureaucracy is insane, parents care more about stupid crap than what their kids are learning, the hours are long (anyone that says a teacher's work stops at the end of the day is an idiot and I will say that to their face) and the pay sucks.
Having said all this, there are still times I wish I had gone down that route and become a teacher.
Rocket Scientist
Member
This reminds me of an article discussing the different social (maybe/probably also economic) statuses of teachers in various countries and how they differ. I could be wrong here, but I think it said that in the various Asian countries, teachers have a much higher social status than in Western countries. Depressing how teaching is regarded as an easy job really.
I think this was also one of the points of the article.
In addition, her school (a middle school) is trying to phase out books. They no longer have books in social studies & her English textbooks are over a decade old and they've hinted that they are going to slowly try and phase them out entirely. She currently has only enough textbooks to keep in the classroom; there aren't enough English textbooks so that kids can take them home to actually read.
In addition, there are no math teachers in her school who have degrees in any math-related field. The school district hunts for "long term substitutes" instead of hiring full-time teachers. With long term subs they can hire anyone with a bachelor's degree in anything to permanently fill any position without having to actually look for qualified people. They also pay these long term subs substantially less and they receive no benefits.
The amount of apathy from parents doesn't help, either. When they have parent/teacher conferences; of the 80 students she has, only 3-4 of their parents actually show up to speak with her.
Our education system is really heartbreaking.
In addition, there are no math teachers in her school who have degrees in any math-related field. The school district hunts for "long term substitutes" instead of hiring full-time teachers. With long term subs they can hire anyone with a bachelor's degree in anything to permanently fill any position without having to actually look for qualified people. They also pay these long term subs substantially less and they receive no benefits.
The amount of apathy from parents doesn't help, either. When they have parent/teacher conferences; of the 80 students she has, only 3-4 of their parents actually show up to speak with her.
Our education system is really heartbreaking.
Rocket Scientist
Member
Damn, these posts are depressing lol, sorry.
But that determination is made by the winners. I'm sure those who started the whiskey rebellion thought that were citizens who were fed up of a tyrannical and overbearing government.
I don't foresee in my lifetime a rebellion that would be so encompassing in support that it would cause serious resistance by the military to do their job.
Yea, a large number of stories about our educational system are depressing. What's sad is no one wants to hear about them. No one really seems to care and that's a sad thing. I got lucky since my mother always cared about that stuff, but far and away most don't. I know a few stories about great teachers going above and beyond to do right by their kids, but mostly the stuff I hear makes me want to cry.
Having a kid last year has really amplified my emotions on the current state of our educational system. I have no data to back this up, but I think that even if a kid goes to a mediocre school and has incredibly engaged and active parents until they are adults that they can turn out to be as bright as kids who've attended high quality schools. To so many parents, though, school is just a babysitter.
The funniest thing about the views on teachers is that they are big union thugs doing nothing but leeching off of everyone... until there's a school shooting. Then they're the last line of defense, and they should most definitely be armed to the teeth.
I feel bad for teachers. People just seem to misunderstand the career altogether. There also seems to be a lot of jealousy, too. As stated, people think they have it easy and it's just a glorified babysitting job for half a year.
The arguments against teachers' benefits is pretty bizarre, too. I heard a lot of people comparing it to their own job and asking how it's fair that they have to pay X amount into their pension or whatever, and teachers don't. People don't realize that benefits are part of your overall wage package that your employer gives you. No one gets a free lunch (as they like to state). If they have better benefits, they also likely have less pay than they otherwise would if those benefits were lowered. From what I understand a lot of unions, especially around here, didn't take pay raises, because they valued benefits more. It's a give and take and you have to look at the whole picture, not just a part of it like some people want to. After trading off raises for so long in order to get benefits instead, you bet if I was a teacher I'd be pissed when people start bitching about a discrepancy and want to cut it down (without raising wages). Hey man, I traded for that!
To put that last part into a crude analogy it's like having two kids that you ask to do chores. You divvy them up equally enough. Over time one of them starts trading bathroom duty and instead mows the lawn. After a few years one kid starts bitching about how the other kid doesn't have to do bathroom duty. You can't just give the lawn mowing kid more of that. He's mowing the lawn more! He'd be doing more overall. You've got to balance the equation again, or just fucking deal with it.
And back to jealousy, I find it odd that people see others with good benefits and a decent job and instead of saying "Hey, why can't I get that?" and demanding it where they are, they just look to cut the other person down. I believe there's an old tale or lesson about crabs in a bucket or something pulling each other back in. I'll have to look that up, but it's relevant here.
I feel bad for teachers. People just seem to misunderstand the career altogether. There also seems to be a lot of jealousy, too. As stated, people think they have it easy and it's just a glorified babysitting job for half a year.
The arguments against teachers' benefits is pretty bizarre, too. I heard a lot of people comparing it to their own job and asking how it's fair that they have to pay X amount into their pension or whatever, and teachers don't. People don't realize that benefits are part of your overall wage package that your employer gives you. No one gets a free lunch (as they like to state). If they have better benefits, they also likely have less pay than they otherwise would if those benefits were lowered. From what I understand a lot of unions, especially around here, didn't take pay raises, because they valued benefits more. It's a give and take and you have to look at the whole picture, not just a part of it like some people want to. After trading off raises for so long in order to get benefits instead, you bet if I was a teacher I'd be pissed when people start bitching about a discrepancy and want to cut it down (without raising wages). Hey man, I traded for that!
To put that last part into a crude analogy it's like having two kids that you ask to do chores. You divvy them up equally enough. Over time one of them starts trading bathroom duty and instead mows the lawn. After a few years one kid starts bitching about how the other kid doesn't have to do bathroom duty. You can't just give the lawn mowing kid more of that. He's mowing the lawn more! He'd be doing more overall. You've got to balance the equation again, or just fucking deal with it.
And back to jealousy, I find it odd that people see others with good benefits and a decent job and instead of saying "Hey, why can't I get that?" and demanding it where they are, they just look to cut the other person down. I believe there's an old tale or lesson about crabs in a bucket or something pulling each other back in. I'll have to look that up, but it's relevant here.
I'm pretty sure there have been studies saying exactly this. It's pretty common knowledge among the teachers I know, if the parents care and get involved in a positive way then it's more likely the kids will as well. I can say pretty confidently from my own experiences that if a parent doesn't care about learning and just looks at school as a babysitter then odds are the kid will be the same way. Kids are smarter than we give them credit for, even the littlest ones pick up on what their parents find important and emulate it to a certain degree. Engaged parents + engaged teachers = success.
I will listen to this later. I love TAL but I can hardly ever keep up with it. Thank you.
Sometimes I wish I had become a teacher, not because I think it's easy or get lots of time off but because I figured they didn't get paid much. Well, as things turned out, I settled for a job that pays less already.
I have cousins that are teachers so am a little envious when they get the whole summer off but not in a resentful way. I'm really quite glad that they chose the profession and commend them for pursuing it.
I'm currently pregnant so having a child go to school is a way's off, but I hope I can be as engaged as some of you are suggesting a parent should be.
I have cousins that are teachers so am a little envious when they get the whole summer off but not in a resentful way. I'm really quite glad that they chose the profession and commend them for pursuing it.
I'm currently pregnant so having a child go to school is a way's off, but I hope I can be as engaged as some of you are suggesting a parent should be.
Yep, I don't think most people realize how much effort goes into that. Basically all the prep work/grading papers/finishing report cards/talking to parents on the phone, etc happens after school hours, at least for an elementary school teacher.
The younger teachers are taking classes for their Masters/Masters+, stuff to get certified to teach different grade levels, etc in the summer.
A lot of the resentment probably comes from people who themselves didn't do good in school. I think it's kind of like a referee in a game. When you're doing well they're fine and part of the game. When your team is doing shitty, you tend to lash out and a lot of the time blame the refs. If you didn't do well, you're not going to understand the value, because you'll think of them as antagonists and unhelpful in the end. Then if you grow up and your kids do well I think sometimes you think it's just them, and they're doing well in spite of the teachers rather than possibly because of any of them, since your own personal experience with them wasn't great.
Yep. My wife is in her first year and is currently halfway through the program to receive her certification to teach 5-12. Once she completes that program in the summer she has to start on working toward her Masters in the fall. All while juggling the things you mentioned plus a one year old. I'm also working toward a Masters degree & working full time so our free time is basically nonexistent.
The fact that you want to be speaks volumes. You'll do just fine.
I don't personally see that as a good reason for disarmament.
I personally don't see hand waving over tyranny as a good reason to to keep the status quo.
Rocket Scientist
Member
You mean it's not tyranny? All of those Facebook chain meme pictures have lied to me!
Fenderputty
Banned
Why is an AWB described as this? Society isn't being disarmed. More restrictions and certain weapons being banned doesn't even come close to the disarmament of soceity. What's with the hyperbole?
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