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PoliGAF 2013 |OT1| Never mind, Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
- Thread starter ClovingWestbrook
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Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Curious about what would have been worse. Going over the cliff or not raising he debt limit?
The Librarian
Banned
Presidential proclamation on the 150th anniversary of the Emancipation Proclamation.
empty vessel
Member
And why we need new tax brackets at higher income levels. Over time, inflation eats away at the progressiveness of the code and flattens it.
RustyNails
Member
2 month deal was agreed upon because some of the nutters wont be in the new congress, giving boehner more leverage.
worldrunover
Member
lol compromise.
I don't understand how the President "won't negotiate" the debt ceiling. He's obviously not going the 14th amendment route, so what other options are there? Default? That sounds like a terrible idea. Although I am glad the sequester and debt ceiling is going to happen at the same time, that way it should all be done at once. In theory.
He's trying to stop a VERY bad precedent before it gets off the ground. Whether or not he sticks to that is another question. However, not raising the debt ceiling would make the fiscal cliff look like a stroll through Sunnybrook Farm. They panicked over the fiscal cliff so they won't let the debt ceiling stagnate. Of course this depends on the House passing THIS bill. If they don't all bets are off.
Indeed. I'm looking all over the internet about the deal that'll be voted on, and conservatives and liberals are BOTH all holding their sides feet to the fire for 'giving up to much' and for 'caving'. Sounds a little like the folks on both sides aren't much for compromise even though they claim to be.
He could pound into the American people's heads what the debt ceiling actually is, and make a strong case to them that the Republicans are literally taking the economy hostage in return for trying to cut their social security and medicare. The public won't like that. Along with that, the business community will not like that. There'll be a lot of pressure to raise it. And then if it doesn't raise it'll be fully on the Republicans. They'll panic and have to raise it almost right away.
Go over?
250k is 450k. Dividends and capital gain tax raises are a joke. No debt limit change and a 2 month delay in the cuts? Keeping some terrible tax credits and getting rid of others.
No republican would ever take a 50/50 deal like this after the last election. Democrats are very good at capitulating.
Add someone else said here I'd love to have Obama try to sell me a car. 50k car at cost? I'll offer to pay 20k max. Obama would sell it to me for 35k and pay the remaining out of his paycheck for the next year.
PhoenixDark
Banned
He wouldn't even do that for the 250k threshold, which he campaigned on for four years and won two elections on. Why the hell do you expect him to hold firm on the debt ceiling, or anything else for that matter.
Those tax rates are virtually here to stay. If we can't raise capital gains taxes to a decent level after a big election win, when can we. Meanwhile we'll continue to chip away at entitlements because apparently the best way to solve the deficit is to give rich people a tax cut while still being open to cutting poor people's checks with chained CPI (which the president said he was still open to on MTP).
Dr. Pangloss
Member
As for the President not negotiating for the debt ceiling, he should just say that is Congress's job and he just wants a clean extension. Don't get into the weeds. Let Pelosi, Reid, McConnell, and Boehner hammer it out. Let the public get mad at Congress and just keep insisting for a clean extension. Why does the executive branch need to get involved in a legislative operation. Stay above the fray.
Edit: You people talk like taxes are never going up again. How do you think Clinton got his tax increases? He never had a super majority in the Senate. Just need to win back the House and then you can do all the tax increases you want. Maybe you guys just wanted the easy way out like the cowardly Senators and Congress by letting it be automatic increases with no votes needed.
Edit: You people talk like taxes are never going up again. How do you think Clinton got his tax increases? He never had a super majority in the Senate. Just need to win back the House and then you can do all the tax increases you want. Maybe you guys just wanted the easy way out like the cowardly Senators and Congress by letting it be automatic increases with no votes needed.
The Librarian
Banned
IIRC, capital gains taxes are where Obama said he'd push for on the campaign trail.
Yeah. Right
PhoenixDark
Banned
Meanwhile the middle class gets hit with a 2% tax increase due to no one considering the payroll tax cut. Obama got elected by championing the middle class, only to sign a bill that doesn't do anything to lower their taxes.
The Librarian
Banned
I don't get it. It's kind of hard to push the narrative that Obama caved when he delivered most of what he promised. Are you mad that he delivered on what he promised, or that what he promised wasn't enough? Especially in the context that he didn't give up anything. Because prior to now I wasn't seeing much discussion (complaining) here on Obama's cap gains tax, which will be raised even more through ACA.
I don't remember him campaigning on the 450k limit.
Exactly. You get temporary stimulus for a middle class tax raise. Also I'm not a big fan of child tax credits
PhoenixDark
Banned
I will conced that the ACA plus this deal will make Capitol gains rates similar to the Clinton era. About 18.7% for income under 400k, and 23% for income above. I would have preferred higher given the concessions involved here, but that's not end of the world bad
The estate taxes though...
The estate taxes though...
talisayNon
Member
can someone break down how much revenue this brings in? according to zero hedge it's only about 69 billion...
man to think two months ago people were talking about changes to the mortgage tax deduction. ugh
man to think two months ago people were talking about changes to the mortgage tax deduction. ugh
I think over 10 years it's supposed to be 800 billion.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Isn't it closer to 600b lol
620b I've been seeing
Dr. Pangloss
Member
You are pretty weird. Complaining about the expiration of the temporary tax cut for Social Security and knowing full well that the Dems don't like messing with it's finances. Then being hypocritical about extending the temporary Bush tax cut rates. At least be consistent. Extend all tax cuts or repeal them all.
Ah, yeah looks like other sources have 600. I swear I heard 800 on the news just a minute before that post, though.
The Librarian
Banned
Over the next decade the difference between 250K and 450K amounts to 0.1% of GDP. Is that really such a deal breaker?
If the debt ceiling doesn't go well, this would've been a bad deal. If it does? Then this is pretty decent. Honestly, the reaction I'm seeing here is looking like the reaction to the deal back in 2010 to extend the BTCs for two years in exchange for more stimulus, which in retrospect was a good call (I think). Honestly, if I were president I would've seriously considered extending them again in exchange for some good stimulus.
Pretty decent deal I guess.
I'm mostly pissed about the payroll tax, just watch the GOP campaign on "the greatest middle class tax hike in a decade!" in the midterm.
That shit was completely unnecessary, you want more revenue from the payroll tax (and generally, fuck the payroll tax) you raise the cap.
I'm mostly pissed about the payroll tax, just watch the GOP campaign on "the greatest middle class tax hike in a decade!" in the midterm.
That shit was completely unnecessary, you want more revenue from the payroll tax (and generally, fuck the payroll tax) you raise the cap.
The income tax bracket change is really nothing. I'm mostly upset about capital gains. Don't fall for the media narrative about income tax for rich people.
Maybe one of you can prove me wrong, but I would have been happier with income tax for the rich unchanged, but capital gains taxed at the same rate as income.
Maybe one of you can prove me wrong, but I would have been happier with income tax for the rich unchanged, but capital gains taxed at the same rate as income.
Dr. Pangloss
Member
I will always remember Charlie Gibson dressing Obama down in 2008 for capital gains http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prWtWEnLl9c
PhoenixDark
Banned
The payroll tax cut doesn't impact social security due to accounting tricks
Momentum was on the democrats side. They could have used this first week of "higher taxes" to hammer out a better deal by demanding a middle class tax cut. Sargent and others can pretend republicans would win that battle by passing some ridiculous rate (1mil perhaps) in the house, but every single poll makes it clear whose side the American people are on. Also not one of these liberal apologists were making that argument last week, when the concensus was that going over the cliff was ideal in terms of deal making.
I'm not going to get excited over "concessions" we would have gotten anyway. AMT has been plugged every year. The Bush and Obama tax credits would be extended; anyone think republicans would die on a hill trying to fight a child tax credit? Unemployment benefits were a fight worth taking to the American people. It may have taken a few days, but it was a battle Obama could have won.
The sequestration cuts were a godsend in terms of leverage, yet now they expire alongside the debt ceiling? Republicans have no incentive to work on a big deal now, they'll just wait for March and take the hostage. Why not use the sequestration cuts to demand a January "grand bargain" so we don't go into March with republicans arguing it's time for cuts?
Dems are claiming 600, GOP 800. The exact figure is dependent on how people change their behavior in response to exemption limiting.
adamsappel
Member
He's a troll.
Don't have kids, I take it?
He's a troll.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Haha, even better. So very little changes. And in a few years when the deficit is larger, we'll continue to be hammered with demands for more cuts, tax increases don't work etc. who knows where public opinion will be, whereas now it's firmly behind the president
The Librarian
Banned
A few years from now cuts to entitlements will remain unpopular, and taxing the rich will remain popular.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
99% of the time he is. This is the one % he isn't which is what makes it so satisfying.
Anyone know when the House is suppose to vote?
As long as Obama keep demanding the GOP to detail the cuts their want, and as long as he's able to articulate an alternative, he should be good.
Not yet. Although taxes are a method of behavior modification, I'm not sure we should completely encourage having children
I don't think that in a country as sparsely populated and rich in natural resources like the US there's a pressing need to discourage childbirth.
And while it's true that such measures can affect the overall birthrate, on the individual level, there are still a whole lot of people out there who don't exactly approach family planning as a cost benefit exercise (or at all for that matter) so such move will undoubtedly end up inflicting pain on poor families.
I keep thinking, though, that the payroll tax holiday ending is going to be bad politics. It's on the record now that Obama and the Dems were the ones pushing for tax hikes. Well, now the working class is going to visibly see their taxes going up, and even though both parties didn't seem to care about it the Dems will likely get the most blame.
empty vessel
Member
It really was amazing to see the issue totally ignored. Not a peep from anybody, even on the campaign trail before the election (so far as I saw, anyway).
Technically, the whole thing is an accounting trick.
talisayNon
Member
Dr. Pangloss
Member
Why are you guys obsessing over the payroll tax cut? They did something similar in the original stimulus in 2009. Basically everyone was getting an extra 30-50 dollars a month due to a change in how much was withheld for income tax purposes then. And people didn't even notice that. They voted Republican overwhelmingly in 2010. Most people don't understand progressive tax rates let alone what is coming out of their paycheck every two weeks. I would also like to see Republicans campaign on denying funding for Social Security.
PhoenixDark
Banned
CBO score: bill adds nearly 4T to deficit. Amazing
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
$41 spending to $1 in cuts. But Obama didn't get anything
that pussy may as well be a Republican. Amirite.Dr. Pangloss
Member
I'm amazed you're that ignorant too. PD, can you tell me how much we would add to the debt if we had put the limit at 250k, the estate tax at 2009 levels, and treated dividends like ordinary income?
Sounds good to me.
Wait, are you against the deficit now? Maybe you should change your avatar when you change characters OH WAIT YOU CAN'T
At first I was like "wat?"
Then I realized it's relative to current law, which would be post cliff, I'd assume.
Frank the Great
Banned
do you mean debt?
either way, it's almost as if our politicians secretly realize that the debt is not a problem.
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