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PoliGAF 2015-2016 |OT3| If someone named PhoenixDark leaves your party, call the cops

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D

disastermouse

Banned
Giant Panda said:
You're a Marxist? To me that is just as bad as being a Trump or Cruz fan. Marxism is built on blind ideology with a complete disregard of facts as well authoritarianism. Actually, that sounds a lot like Trump and Cruz fans...
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Not all Marxists - in fact - very few, Marxists have faith in the sort of bureaucratic solutions of the past. Most are anti-authoritarian.
 
A

A Human Becoming

More than a Member
adam387 said:
It was a joke. I understand how that could be confusing, though. Jokes are supposed to be funny, and mine wasn't. :p
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It can be difficult at times to discern whether a person is joking or trying to play off how they truly feel as a joke. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that it's the former.
 
B

Bam Bam Baklava

Member
I think the point here is that an elected representative of hundreds of million of people should not be worried about satisfying the views of an extreme fringe. Isn't that what liberals keep laughing at Republicans for doing?
 
G

Giant Panda

Member
disastermouse said:
Not all Marxists - in fact - very few, Marxists have faith in the sort of bureaucratic solutions of the past. Most are anti-authoritarian.
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How would you even achieve your system if you don't force people to use it? That's why every historical attempt at Marxism fell into authoritarian tyranny; their system would have collapsed super quickly, and a at least partially capitalist system would have replaced it, if people weren't threatened.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
ivysaur12 said:
I truly don't think I've hated anyone more.
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I'm not even joking when I say if I ever was unfortunate to be in his presence that i would tell him to eat a bag of dicks and choke on them.

I detest him so much. And it's funny because people who know me know I pretty much like everyone and am so non-confrontational. I just can't stand him at all.
 
N

Nazgul_Hunter

Member
That's the closest thing he could've done to just waving a white flag. He's toast. Didn't he hear yesterday? Any kind of apology is a sign you're a weak chump who deserves no respect
 
D

disastermouse

Banned
Bam Bam Baklava said:
I think the point here is that an elected representative of hundreds of million of people should not be worried about satisfying the views of an extreme fringe. Isn't that what liberals keep laughing at Republicans for doing?
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Right. I'm not asking the Democrats to care about Marxists. What I'm saying though is that the same events that have caused me to become radicalized is also responsible for the enthusiasm deficit going on in the Hillary campaign and I think it's going to keep enough of the left away from voting for Hillary that she's not a strong candidate this cycle.
 
D

disastermouse

Banned
Giant Panda said:
How would you even achieve your system if you don't force people to use it? That's why every historical attempt at Marxism fell into authoritarian tyranny; their system would have collapsed super quickly, and a at least partially capitalist system would have replaced it, if people weren't threatened.
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The authoritarianism has often been a response to a concerted effort by determined capitalist governments to turn back the revolution. Russia never considered that they would be so alone in their revolution, as Germany and other European countries were far further advanced in the movement. Indeed, they expected help from a Socialist Germany.

My vision involves entangling socialism with private property first and developing worker management through a party based in worker's cooperatives. Capturing the state just replaces capitalists with party apparatchiks. It doesn't really fix the problem.
 
I

ivysaur12

Banned
disastermouse said:
Right. I'm not asking the Democrats to care about Marxists. What I'm saying though is that the same events that have caused me to become radicalized is also responsible for the enthusiasm deficit going on in the Hillary campaign and I think it's going to keep enough of the left away from voting for Hillary that she's not a strong candidate this cycle.
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And I don't think that's the case and you're speaking from more personal experience than anything that would probably pan out in reality.
 
D

Daniel B·

Banned
This is why we would walk over hot coals, for Bernie (and Liz as VP ;) ):

CBS This Morning said:
CBS: A poll from CBS and the New York Times showes you are nearly thirty percentage points ahead of Hillary Clinton, among voters under the age of 45, but you know history shows, Senator Sanders, that the young people don't normally turn out to vote, on election day. Are you confidant that you can carry that enthusiasm with you, to the polls, on election day?

Bernie: Well that's a very fair question, and is something we're working very hard on. ... but clearly, it is one thing, as we understand, to bring out a whole lot of young people to rallies, to get them excited, it's another thing to get them to come out on caucus night in Iowa and the New Hampshire primary.
Click to expand...



P.S. Adam, did Senator Paul Kirk, the former DNC chairman, endorsement have you weeping into your cocoa? ;).
 
F

FiggyCal

Banned
disastermouse said:
The authoritarianism has often been a response to a concerted effort by determined capitalist governments to turn back the revolution. Russia never considered that they would be so alone in their revolution, as Germany and other European countries were far further advanced in the movement. Indeed, they expected help from a Socialist Germany.

My vision involves entangling socialism with private property first and developing worker management through a party based in worker's cooperatives. Capturing the state just replaces capitalists with party apparatchiks. It doesn't really fix the problem.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by this?
 
B

Bam Bam Baklava

Member
Daniel B·;192331301 said:
This is why we would walk over hot coals, for Bernie (and Liz as VP ;) ):
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You shouldn't be walking over hot coals for any politician. It's this line of thinking that disgusts me about politics. It's not religion, it's just a vote for someone who will likely disappoint in many ways but will hopefully just be competent on the job. Get a grip man.
 
Hexa

Hexa

Member
Has anyone else read the titles wrong and accidentally wandered into POPGaf.

image.gif


Also my ban ended. Whoohoo!
Didn't get to post during the Republican debate last night though. QQ
 
B

Bam Bam Baklava

Member
Not sure how to feel about this. Trump or Cruz getting that close to the Presidency is some scary shit.

There was a time when Palin being VP was considered a close call. This is like staring the down the chamber.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
Bam Bam Baklava said:
Not sure how to feel about this. Trump or Cruz getting that close to the Presidency is some scary shit.

There was a time when Palin being VP was considered a close call. This is like staring the down the chamber.
Click to expand...

Any Republican winning next year would be terrifying considering how crazy the party has become and how they'd control the entire government for probably 4 years.
 
T

Third Strike

Member
Bam Bam Baklava said:
Not sure how to feel about this. Trump or Cruz getting that close to the Presidency is some scary shit.

There was a time when Palin being VP was considered a close call. This is like staring the down the chamber.
Click to expand...

And we have a concurrent topic with some people saying they won't vote in the GE because of "reasons". We're truly fucked, aren't we?
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
Hillary will carve Trump up, come on, guys.

Christie, Cruz, Rubio, and Jeb are all cowards who can't stand up to bullies. You think a woman who has been under scrutiny for decades won't be able to handle Trump?
 
I

Iolo

Member
I saw that a bunch of people were complaining about the Democratic debate conflicting with the NFL playoffs, DWS trickery, etc. but... there's no game Sunday night? So what are they talking about?
 
C

Crocodile

Member
NeoXChaos said:
.
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I mean its not like Trump can/will accept those considering he's been running on a "I'm my own man who isn't bought out by anybody" platform. Unless its a trick by the establishment to try to get him to take the money and then out him as a hypocrite on a subject the GOP base might care about?
 
K

kingkitty

Member
Iolo said:
I saw that a bunch of people were complaining about the Democratic debate conflicting with the NFL playoffs, DWS trickery, etc. but... there's no game Sunday night? So what are they talking about?
Click to expand...

It was more an assumption that an NFL playoff game would be shown during Sunday night. Luckily this isn't the case. The only night game over the weekend is on Saturday.
 
H

HylianTom

Banned
Third Strike said:
And we have a concurrent topic with some people saying they won't vote in the GE because of "reasons". We're truly fucked, aren't we?
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I have no worry about the BernOuts. They're loud, but polling suggests that they're a very small minority, like the PUMAs. And a lot of people end-up coming home during the general campaign, after passions have long cooled-down.

I just wish they'd own their willingness to fuck-over Bernie's own movement for the long term; that'd be the intellectually honest thing to do. Don't give us flowery bullshit language about voting ideals or voting for the candidate you most like or how she makes you feeeeel - own the cold reality of the consequences at stake. At this rate, I could claim with a straight face that *I* am more serious about his movement's long-term viability than they are.

===

Meanwhile, more on Costa's report about the party moving into the acceptance phase:

Republicans now see a Trump-Cruz race, with time for a shift running out

As the presidential primary moves into a more urgent and combative phase, there is growing acceptance among Republicans, including the Washington and financial elite, that Donald Trump and Ted Cruz are the two candidates most likely to become the party’s nominee.

Their commanding performances at the sixth debate — along with their continued dominance in national and early state polls — has solidified the conclusion of many Republicans that the campaign is becoming a two-person contest.

Long expected to become a race between an outsider and an establishment candidate, it is coming down instead as one between two outsiders, with dwindling time for Trump’s and Cruz’s rivals to change the trajectory before the Iowa caucuses on Feb. 1.

--

“Trump and Cruz sucked all the oxygen out of the room, which is bad news for the establishment folks,” said Barry Bennett, a veteran GOP strategist who recently resigned as campaign manager to Ben Carson. “It doesn’t look like much is going to stop them. They’re in a tier off to themselves, and I think our nominee is going to be Cruz or Trump.”

Republican donors, who had long assumed that the outsider candidates would self-destruct and that voters would rally around someone like former Florida governor Jeb Bush, are suddenly adjusting their thinking and strategies.

Spencer Zwick, the national finance chairman for Mitt Romney’s 2012 campaign, said power brokers and financiers are now trying to cozy up to Trump in various ways, such as reaching out through mutual friends in New York’s business community.
Click to expand...
 
T

Teggy

Member
Sea Manky said:
"And if we aren't 100% sure you're not a bumblebee who likes to sting eyelids, you're not getting in."
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Is he wearing fake ears in that video? It looks like he's wearing fake ears.


Interesting question, what happens when donors go to Trump? He just turns them away? Is there even a big Trump superpac?
 
T

Third Strike

Member
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Rubio will become a demon for a third place finish for the Republican nomination.

*Insert Punished Rubio image if I could edit images well*
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Coming in third place might be good for Rubio. He can make a stronger case in 2020 if a Democrat gets into office, and after a failed Trump/Cruz run. I think he's this cycle Romney.
 
U

User 406

Banned
Teggy said:
Interesting question, what happens when donors go to Trump? He just turns them away? Is there even a big Trump superpac?
Click to expand...

"So they come to me, these donors come to meet with me, they really love me, love my campaign, and they tell me they want to donate to me, to help out. I tell them, look, I really don't need any more money, look how successful I am, one of the most successful people out there, really, but they tell me, they really want to help, they want to make America great again, how can they help. Now I don't need their money, I have so much money, everyone knows I'm rich, but I tell them, I tell these people, well, maybe we could find some good things to do for America with their money. I've got a lot of experience in making great deals, spending money to make tremendous amounts of even more money, I know I can take their money, like an investment, they're investors, really, and do even more great things for America, make America really great. I don't need their money, but I can use their money to do great things, I'm the best at getting great deals for money. They want to invest in me, they want to invest in America, it's a great investment, the best."
 
R

Rubenov

Member
Third Strike said:
Coming in third place might be good for Rubio. He can make a stronger case in 2020 if a Democrat gets into office, and after a failed Trump/Cruz run. I think he's this cycle Romney.
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He has no chance unless he drops the bullet lists and starts talking more genuinely, but that requires such a significant change in character that it's highly unlikely.
 
N

NeoXChaos

Member
*Matthews is referencing establishment choice Muskie being beat by McGovern in the 72 primary.

Matthews: It made no sense by the way because McGovern was going to get killed in the general and everybody must have known that. They did not care and that is what I am wondering about the Bernie people. Are they cognizant of the vulnerabilities of a self described socialist in an American general election when Republicans including moderate Republicans get to vote

Mitchell: No. They dont think they are vulnerable, they think that she is vulnerable.
 
U

User1608

Banned
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Hillary will carve Trump up, come on, guys.

Christie, Cruz, Rubio, and Jeb are all cowards who can't stand up to bullies. You think a woman who has been under scrutiny for decades won't be able to handle Trump?
Click to expand...
Indeed. The debates will be quite the spectacle-the spectacle being Trump's mauling live on TV.
HylianTom said:
I have no worry about the BernOuts. They're loud, but polling suggests that they're a very small minority, like the PUMAs. And a lot of people end-up coming home during the general campaign, after passions have long cooled-down.

I just wish they'd own their willingness to fuck-over Bernie's own movement for the long term; that'd be the intellectually honest thing to do. Don't give us flowery bullshit language about voting ideals or voting for the candidate you most like or how she makes you feeeeel - own the cold reality of the consequences at stake. At this rate, I could claim with a straight face that *I* am more serious about his movement's long-term viability than they are.

===

Meanwhile, more on Costa's report about the party moving into the acceptance phase:

Republicans now see a Trump-Cruz race, with time for a shift running out
Click to expand...
Yep, fuck long-term progress. It really is silly and self-defeating. This is something I will not forget in the future should I be lucky to gain the one golden privelege the rest of you have in poligaf- voting! And loool, they are so screwed this cycle.
 
E

Elaugaufein

Member
This thread is like some kind of performance art piece demonstrating why centrists find themselves less than loved. You are every bit as smugly self-righteous as the "extremists" you loathe but instead of being about high minded ideals its about how much you compromise and how pragmatic you are while making comments that are absolutely insulting to anyone to your left which suggests your definition of compromise is rather skewed in one direction to start with. And you don't even seen to realize it.

You're also accusing the minority of people on GAF who don't fall in line with you of doing so not because of any ideals they might hold but because of racism, sexisn or stupidity in increasingly unsubtle ways. Which is about the best way I can think off to encourage them to not vote for a cebtrist.
 
P

Poodlestrike

Banned
Elaugaufein said:
This thread is like some kind of performance art piece demonstrating why centrists find themselves less than loved. You are every bit as smugly self-righteous as the "extremists" you loathe but instead of being about high minded ideals its about how much you compromise and how pragmatic you are while making comments that are absolutely insulting to anyone to your left which suggests your definition of compromise is rather skewed in one direction to start with. And you don't even seen to realize it.

You're also accusing the minority of people on GAF who don't fall in line with you of doing so not because of any ideals they might hold but because of racism, sexisn or stupidity in increasingly unsubtle ways. Which is about the best way I can think off to encourage them to not vote for a cebtrist.
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The core difference is, I suppose, that a "centrist" (which I kind of have to laugh at as a label for most of the people in this thread, most people are pretty left-leaning) actually Gets Shit Done. As such, they have something actually worth feeling righteous about, whereas the ideologues who'd rather die on their hills rather than walk down them a little have an entirely unearned sense of moral superiority. The people who actually follow through on their threat to not vote in the general if Sanders isn't elected are probably the same group who think that Obama's a right-winger because he gave up on the public option.

As for the other thing, that doesn't actually happen? The only accusations of racism and sexism I've seen thrown are when it's genuinely earned, and I haven't seen in it in here. Even Disastermouse was only called for being ridiculously myopic and frankly uncaring on the issue of "identity politics."
 
E

Elaugaufein

Member
Poodlestrike said:
As for the other thing, that doesn't actually happen? The only accusations of racism and sexism I've seen thrown are when it's genuinely earned, and I haven't seen in it in here. Even Disastermouse was only called for being ridiculously myopic and frankly uncaring on the issue of "identity politics."
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There's a post on this page about how criticism of Hilary must come from 'subtle' sexism and another saying the word subtle is wrong. That's awfully proximate for a thing that doesn't happen.
 
P

Poodlestrike

Banned
Elaugaufein said:
There's a post on this page about how criticism of Hilary must come from 'subtle' sexism and another saying the word subtle is wrong. That's awfully proximate for a thing that doesn't happen.
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Firstly, how many posts per page are you on?

Secondly, you're mischaracterizing the discussion being had entirely. Not all criticism of Hillary comes from a place of sexism, and that's not what anybody was suggesting. "Must" is therefore wrong.

Thirdly, treating it like it's a chronic thing is still a strawman.
 
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