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PoliGAF 2015-2016 |OT3| If someone named PhoenixDark leaves your party, call the cops

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B

Black Mamba

Member
disastermouse said:
Yeah, and I'm going to trip the better runner and then ask why he/she isn't winning. Which is what the DNC has been trying to do since the beginning.

So, kind of a Republican talking point about Obama's inability to get so much of what he wants out of congress.

"Why can't he lead?"
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Not even comparable.

Bernie's message needs to resonate with more primary voters. That's his entire job right now. How else is he going to be elected?
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Black Mamba said:
Not even comparable.

Bernie's message needs to resonate with more primary voters. That's his entire job right now. How else is he going to be elected?
Click to expand...

That's why he's busy trying to win Iowa. People will always think Clinton does better at x if they've never heard of the other candidate. Obviously there's other things that matter aside from the profile gap and it would be patronizing to suggest lack of awareness is the only factor; but it's also true to say that it's probably the most critical factor, and why a loss in Iowa represents game over.
 
A

Atomic Playboy

Member
Drakeon said:
What about a system where you rotate which states get to go first? Some sort of lottery?

And when you win it, you are no longer allowed to win until the rest of the states get a shot.

I'm pretty fucking tired of California's primary being irrelevant (2008 being a big exception). This year is no different with us voting in June.
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You realize that with primaries only happening every four years, giving all 50 states a shot at being first would take 200 years to rotate through, right? Something obviously needs to get done so that California isn't completely irrelevant, but holding all the primaries very close together makes more sense than a rotating lottery that would take centuries to complete.
 
F

Frank the Great

Banned
Las7 said:
Right, vague "Hope and Change" was great - but when Bernie does it he is literally a moron. Thank you for the invaluable input I can safely put you on my ignore list when requiring a political perspective. The day realism rules the day is the day I ask you to assume fetal position realizing the World is going to shite if there isn't drastic changes far greater than anything Bernie is proposing.
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What are you talking about? I specifically referenced and criticized his healthcare proposal. My point is NOT that Bernie is being vague. On the contrary, Bernie is making specific proposals that have zero chance of every becoming reality and that are tailored to mislead his supporters.

You don't need to insult me just because I insulted Bernie. Why do so many Bernie stans take this stuff so personal???
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Atomic Playboy said:
You realize that with primaries only happening every four years, giving all 50 states a shot at being first would take 200 years, right? Something obviously needs to get done so that California isn't completely irrelevant, but holding all the primaries very close together makes more sense than a rotating lottery that would take centuries to complete.
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Lots of primaries are on the same day - e.g. Super Tuesday. If you did 10 states on each primary day, it'd only take 20 years for a full cycle. You could even mix and match each batch of states so that the cumulative of them was demographically balanced.
 
C

Coriolanus

Banned
Frank the Great said:
What are you talking about? I specifically referenced and criticized his healthcare proposal. My point is NOT that Bernie is being vague. On the contrary, Bernie is making specific proposals that have zero chance of every becoming reality and that are tailored to mislead his supporters.
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And this ignores that nearly anything of significance coming from democrats at all will get shot down. Like, say, the criminal justice reform hillary is promissing. Or the federal background check legislation she's proposing. Or oh so many other things that she's saying in her site, fully aware that they won't ever see the light of day.

Is she misleading her supporters too? Or are both just, yknow, being politicians?
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Coriolanus said:
And this ignores that nearly anything of significance coming from democrats at all will get shot down. Like, say, the criminal justice reform hillary is promissing. Or the federal background check legislation she's proposing. Or oh so many other things that she's saying in her site, fully aware that they won't ever see the light of day.

Is she misleading her supporters too? Or are both just, yknow, being politicians?
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Don't forget Hilldawg's constitutional amendment to strike down Citizens United!
 
G

Gotchaye

Member
Crab said:
Lots of primaries are on the same day - e.g. Super Tuesday. If you did 10 states on each primary day, it'd only take 20 years for a full cycle. You could even mix and match each batch of states so that the cumulative of them was demographically balanced.
Click to expand...

I don't know that batches of 10 states is that much easier to deal with than just doing all of them at once, if the idea is to give candidates who would have trouble with a media-focused national campaign a chance to do retail politics. But then California by itself is too big for something like an Iowa or New Hampshire style campaign. To the extent that this is valuable you probably want to have the first primaries be restricted to relatively small states, possibly following up with rotating batches of larger states.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Gotchaye said:
I don't know that batches of 10 states is that much easier to deal with than just doing all of them at once, if the idea is to give candidates who would have trouble with a media-focused national campaign a chance to do retail politics. But then California by itself is too big for something like an Iowa or New Hampshire style campaign. To the extent that this is valuable you probably want to have the first primaries be restricted to relatively small states, possibly following up with rotating batches of larger states.
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This still screws over California, unfortunately. That said, I sort of agree that California is just too different to ever be an electorally important state. It's too safe in the presidentials and too big in the primaries.
 
T

teiresias

Member
tmarg said:
I'll be voting for Hillary, but some of her supporters in here have gone off the deep end.
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I can sort of agree with this. Hillary supporters need to change their argument style. They should probably take after the style Neil Degrasse Tyson uses to argue with Flat Earthers.
 
E

ErasureAcer

Banned
Black Mamba said:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-sainato/america-needs-a-first-lad_b_9065150.html

Really, did Berniestans need to go there?
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HSfPeqN.jpg


Seems pretty genuine to me. I'll reserve judgment on Laura and Michelle. Hillary is out of touch though as this campaign is showing.
 
F

Frank the Great

Banned
Coriolanus said:
And this ignores that nearly anything of significance coming from democrats at all will get shot down. Like, say, the criminal justice reform hillary is promissing. Or the federal background check legislation she's proposing. Or oh so many other things that she's saying in her site, fully aware that they won't ever see the light of day.

Is she misleading her supporters too? Or are both just, yknow, being politicians?
Click to expand...

What's with the moving goalposts? First I am unfairly criticizing Bernie for being vague, now when you realize I am criticizing his specific proposals, that's not cool because all politicians have proposals? Is it even possible to criticize this guy at all without getting jumped on by Bernie fans? Feel free to criticize Hilldawg's policies all you want, I won't mind.

Besides, these are very bad comparisons. Bernie's healthcare plan wouldn't even get through a Democrat-controlled Congress. I'd be surprised if it got out of committee. It is a complete nonstarter.

Hillary's proposals are FAR more realistic and are actually grounded in this universe. It is within the realm of possibility that the Democrats do well next year and pick up enough Congressmen to get criminal justice reform passed or background checks. There is also bipartisan support in favor of campaign finance reform. I do not get the sense that she is lying to me like Bernie is. Her proposals do not entirely depend on a "revolution.".

This is why I think Bernie is the left-wing version of Cruz. He either doesn't believe this shit for a second or he is a bumbling idiot. Sorry if that hurts people's feelings.
 
C

Coriolanus

Banned
Frank the Great said:
This is why I think Bernie is the left-wing version of Cruz. He either doesn't believe this shit for a second or he is a bumbling idiot. Sorry if that hurts people's feelings.
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Like i said, backfire effect.
Also, do try to keep things consistent. Remember a coupla months back, when you said he was the dem's Ron Paul?

Frank the Great said:
Bernie is not the Democrat's Trump, he is their Ron Paul. And he will be about as successful.
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And now Cruz? Really?
 
H

HanShotFirst

Member
What about choosing 3 or 4 states which are most representative of the country as a whole for the first primary? That way the first states are similar to the attitudes of the national electorate while keeping the states where candidates campaign in initially at a minimum.
 
U

ugaboga232

Member
Ok why is everyone going personal and generalizing the other side? Its good evidence tribalism is intrinsic to our brains and it takes a lot of effort to fight it. Hopefully we can try to understand the otherside and call out shitty articles and things (like the cruz christmas ad, wtf was that). Most hilary supporters like her experience, pragmatism, and more vocal outreach to minorities, women, and lgbt rights. Bernie is all about idealism, economic change, and campaign finance reform plus hes a decently honest guy. Both have pluses, both have minuses. Bernie could definitely be a lot more vocal and also just explain his policies better, he has a lot of ok/similar ideas to clinton on issues that non cishet white males face but doesn't talk about them at debates as much which i find weird but w/e.

Tl;dr nobodies perfect, we got to work it (out together), cruz and trump are who we should be laughing at. Please lets all try to understand each other and give each other the benefit of the doubt.
 
M

Makai

Member
I don't know why you guys even care about the boring Democrat primary. Trump just threw the biggest curveball ever and you guys wanna talk about policy and electability. ?:^V
 
I

Iolo

Member
Makai said:
I don't know why you guys even care about the boring Democrat primary. Trump just threw the biggest curveball ever and you guys wanna talk about policy and electability. ?:^V
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I figured out how they can beat Trump.

In practice, however, party bosses tried to keep [the caucuses] exclusive. In 1948, Emory English, who headed a historical magazine in the state, wrote about a town in northern Iowa where an old shed happened to catch on fire at exactly the scheduled time of a caucus, attracting “nine-tenths of the people in the village, including members of the volunteer fire department.” While the townspeople gawked, party insiders convened, selected a slate of delegates without opposition and then went on their merry ways.
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https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/selzer/
 
C

Cheebo

Banned
Crab said:
Alternatively, and this might be too radical for some folks...

...hold them all at the same time.

D:
Click to expand...
Primaries are for not just President. Local offices are held often alongside them. That would be virtually impossible to coordinate nationwide.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
Crab said:
Can confirm, all Berniestans same person going same places at same time.

That article is pretty horrendous.
Click to expand...

FWIW, I'm not arguing this guy represents anyone but himself, just saying does any Berniestan need to go here?

There's nothing wrong with Michelle Obama...
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Black Mamba said:
FWIW, I'm not arguing this guy represents anyone but himself, just saying does any Berniestan need to go here?

There's nothing wrong with Michelle Obama...
Click to expand...

Then just say "Did this guy need to go so far?" instead of leaving the indefinite "Berniestans". You know exactly why that annoyed myself and brainchild. I imagine both of us think that was a pretty disgusting article; I imagine by far the majority of Berniestans also do.

And yes, Michelle Obama is boss.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
Crab said:
Then just say "Did this guy need to go so far?" instead of leaving the indefinite "Berniestans". You know exactly why that annoyed myself and brainchild. I imagine both of us think that was a pretty disgusting article; I imagine by far the majority of Berniestans also do.

And yes, Michelle Obama is boss.
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You're right, I shouldn't have made that post come off as all berniestans, which I can see how it did.

BTW, when I say "berniestans," I don't refer to those who will vote for bernie. Or even support him. I'm directly referencing the rabid supporters that act like the Paultards did (of which I don't consider you or brainchild a part of).
 
U

ugaboga232

Member
Holmes said:
This is why no one is surprised that non-white voters believe by a 2:1 margin that Clinton is most likely to bring change to Washington. They're not buying what Sanders is (hard) selling them and the not-so-subtle rhetoric that his supporters are spewing isn't helping at all.
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Agreed, bernie has not been talking about non-economic domestic reforms as much which is somewhat puzzling given how he has some decent ideas on his website (at least I think). He is going to have to work hard, perhaps hes just tailoring his message toward Iowa and NH and going from there?
 
V

vicissitudes

Banned
rjinaz said:
So I guess Clinton wants that debate to happen?
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/clinton-calls-sanders-join-democratic-debate

I don't see how Sanders can say no now.
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I'm nonplussed at Sanders' response to this so far considering he was the one making the biggest noise for having more debates for months now. Even Hillary is willing to go against the DNC but Sanders now isn't?

It's really starting to make me think the only honest candidate left in this election is Trump.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
ugaboga232 said:
Agreed, bernie has not been talking about non-economic domestic reforms as much which is somewhat puzzling given how he has some decent ideas on his website (at least I think). He is going to have to work hard, perhaps hes just tailoring his message toward Iowa and NH and going from there?
Click to expand...

He has some good ideas there, but remember that they basically had to be dragged out of him by BLM and such. I still hold that he never expected the field to be this empty or that he would be a competitor and now finds himself in a crazy spot.
 
U

ugaboga232

Member
What is hilary's healthcare plan though, I think we can all agree we need change (whether incremental or a bigger sandersesque revamp) but I haven't heard her talk about it (i assume she has one).
 
D

Daniel B·

Banned
B-Dubs said:
So that's where DanB got that line :lol
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I know you're probably half joking, but nope; I was researching whether FDR had any trouble passing his "radical" (or non-incremental) legislation (he didn't, and had large majorities in both houses of Congress), when I struck gold ;), as it had been suggested that even if Bernie is winning over the American people, how's he going to convince the "establishment" Senators and Representatives, and, as I said previously, if FDR could do it, I see no reason why Bernie can't also get them to support his agenda.

But, to reiterate what I've said several times before, regarding TYT; until recently, and since the first dem debate, they have gone completely "off the boil" for Bernie (plus have more fluff pieces), and just the other day, when they (~Cenk) were discussing where Martin's caucus votes might go, if he didn't reach required 15%, they failed to identify any policy overlap with Bernie, when on Wall St., he is way closer to Bernie, than Hillary, and often talks about taxing Capital Gains at regular rates, which has been one of Bernie's long standing policies. Just of late, Cenk has rediscovered some of that passion, for Bernie, in response to some great recent polls. As far as TYT shaping my opinions, post first debate, they largely haven't, for the reasons given above, and it's just that we're on the same wavelength (I don't watch their live broadcasts - not PS3 compatible ;) ).
 
U

ugaboga232

Member
B-Dubs said:
He has some good ideas there, but remember that they basically had to be dragged out of him by BLM and such. I still hold that he never expected the field to be this empty or that he would be a competitor and now finds himself in a crazy spot.
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Oh I agree, but I would chalk it up to just not having a full plan out because he never thought he'd be in this position (im biased toward sanders a bit, I totally understand if you think hes playing a political game). But he definitely needs to work on it/earn their support and I'd like to think he can but he hasn't been which is confusing but I am in no way a political mastermind.
 
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