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PoliGAF 2015-2016 |OT3| If someone named PhoenixDark leaves your party, call the cops

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T

tmarg

Member
Holmes said:
You're right. Promising to cut taxes for those making 200k would've been killer. But I think Sanders is just very stubborn, it's very obvious by the way he reacts to when other people challenge him, ask how he'll get stuff done, or bring up the fact that other left-wing people/organizations have endorsed Hillary. Very "us or them" mentality and I do believe he thinks he can win on promising to raise taxes.
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I don't think it would be in his best interest to do that. If single payer was actually in a position to pass, maybe you try to present it with rose colored glasses, but you are better off presenting it warts and all right now. Plus it is just absurd to suggest that universal health care is possible without a tax increase.
 
A

adamsappel

Member
Holmes said:
You're right. Promising to cut taxes for those making 200k would've been killer. But I think Sanders is just very stubborn, it's very obvious by the way he reacts to when other people challenge him, ask how he'll get stuff done, or bring up the fact that other left-wing people/organizations have endorsed Hillary. Very "us or them" mentality and I do believe he thinks he can win on promising to raise taxes.
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Does Bernie espouse "having skin in the game" or adhere to a Socialist ideal of "everybody benefits/everybody pays"? I'm more of a "the most of us pay for the least of us" type liberal, and I don't begrudge those who cannot afford to contribute.
 
U

ugaboga232

Member
To be fair, below 250k, he only increases income tax a few percent and payroll 7ish% and then you save a money on healthcare and your employer saves a lot of money too (so that vox poll is accurate but misleading because employer based payroll taxes are taken out before you even see your salary similar to how healthcare benefits are deducted already) so it may actually increase most people's disposable income but this is far too nuanced of a point to get across in an election but thats a sad reflection of things. Above 250k, savings become a little murkier but its not that bad till you get to the really high levels in which case if you aren't handling your finances well go hire a manager.
 
R

rjinaz

Member
I see the Trump defenders are out in force in that Trump won't be at the debate thread. I guess they feel like they need to defend Trump since he's making such a bold move.
 
P

PBY

Banned
rjinaz said:
I see the Trump defenders are out in force in that Trump won't be at the debate thread. I guess they feel like they need to defend Trump since he's making such a bold move.
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You can defend the move and not be a Trump defender.

FWIW I don't know if it's a wise decision, but I don't think Trump is "scared" of Kelly or anything.
 
R

rjinaz

Member
PBY said:
You can defend the move and not be a Trump defender.

FWIW I don't know if it's a wise decision, but I don't think Trump is "scared" of Kelly or anything.
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I agree. But they're not defending the move, in particular they are defending Trump being a racist.

But I was just commenting that it's interesting to see them coming out because usually they are quiet. I think the move has even them a little nervous.
 
P

PBY

Banned
rjinaz said:
I agree. But they're not defending the move, in particular they are defending Trump being a racist.

But I was just commenting that it's interesting to see them coming out because usually they are quiet. I think the move has even them a little nervous.
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Oh yeah, that semantic "not a race" shit is so stupid.
 
M

Mrs. Manky

Banned
There was a Bernie Sanders rally last night in Minnesota. I'm too old for this Twitter thing, but I'd like to quote @mxdkays, who was at the rally.

@mxdkays said:
A number of black youth were given green wristbands in order to allow us to stand behind Bernie on stage. One of us were accused of being a disrupter. A group of us were then approached & verbally harassed. A man even approached the accused disrupter with a pair of scissors with the intention to physically cut off her wristband. This settled down after much yelling (from Bernie's campaign staff) & we lined up to stand on stage. They let a number of people through & suddenly cut us off & pushed us back. They said they were trying to make sure they don't let any disrupters through. Oddly enough, all of the people they were trying to keep out were black youth, some of whom had 0 association with the accused disputed. It was very obvous profiling - there were about 10 black youth who came present 0 threat being told they're a threat.
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TL;DR Black youth profiled at Bernie Sanders rally and prevented from being on stage, even though they'd already been given wristbands to stand behind Bernie on stage.

Your move, Killer Mike.
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
So basically:

Lots of new turnout in Iowa: Trump crushes Cruz and it's a tossup between Hillary and Bernie.

Very little new turnout: Hillary crushes Bernie and it's a tossup between Trump and Cruz.

Right?
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
So basically:

Lots of new turnout in Iowa: Trump crushes Cruz and it's a tossup between Hillary and Bernie.

Very little new turnout: Hillary crushes Bernie and it's a tossup between Trump and Cruz.

Right?
Click to expand...

Basically. Keep in mind that just because there's high turnout it doesn't mean that it'll be for both sides. One of the candidates might be more popular with the Iowa electorate than the other, but it should give us a decent idea how the night is going.
 
I

Iolo

Member
SenorArdilla said:
Is Obama hosting Sanders going to result in something or are they just having dinner together?
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Probably nothing. It was scheduled a month ago; Obama said he would meet with O'Malley too, if O'Malley wanted to, or if Obama wanted an eyeful of abs.

he might've mentioned the FDA thing
 
I

Iolo

Member
HylianTom said:
Nate's grasping for indicators. Interesting, nonetheless. 2008 dwarfs 2016 thus far.
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Well, Google is a powerful corporation, and its sweetheart deals might be at risk if a non-establishment person became president. I wouldn't put it past them to put a finger on the scale.
 
H

Holmes

Member
Mrs. Manky said:
There was a Bernie Sanders rally last night in Minnesota. I'm too old for this Twitter thing, but I'd like to quote @mxdkays, who was at the rally.



TL;DR Black youth profiled at Bernie Sanders rally and prevented from being on stage, even though they'd already been given wristbands to stand behind Bernie on stage.

Your move, Killer Mike.
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This is an ongoing theme. I think down the line, no matter what happens, we'll be talking about how the Sanders campaign was hijacked by young, white males and yes men.
 
U

User 463088

Banned
Somehow I ended up watching Entertainment Tonight. They're covering Donald Trump. I mean....we've reached this point where Entertainment Tonight is weighing in on Trump vs Kelly. I just.....
 
S

shinra-bansho

Member
teiresias said:
How long has she [Oprah] been in the public eye? She's obviously establishment.
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So this was a joke probably, but she totally is. She's a billionaire, she commands considerable influence, she's part of the elite group of Hollywood's A-List, she controls a portion of the media.

You get an establishment, and you get an establishment, and you get an establishment.
tumblr_n4mw33I4Sg1qmqy5mo1_500.gif
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
shinra-bansho said:
So this was a joke probably, but she totally is. She's a billionaire, she commands considerable influence, she's part of the elite group of Hollywood's A-List, she controls a portion of the media.

You get an establishment, and you get an establishment, and you get an establishment.
tumblr_n4mw33I4Sg1qmqy5mo1_500.gif
Click to expand...

Everyone gets an establishment!

Also that picture is perfection :lol
 
U

ugaboga232

Member
shinra-bansho said:
So this was a joke probably, but she totally is. She's a billionaire, she commands considerable influence, she's part of the elite group of Hollywood's A-List, she controls a portion of the media.

You get an establishment, and you get an establishment, and you get an establishment.
tumblr_n4mw33I4Sg1qmqy5mo1_500.gif
Click to expand...

bees-10102.gif


not the bees.nickcage
 
S

shinra-bansho

Member
So, she's not endorsing anyone this primary cycle, but a study - the intricacies I didn't bother to look into to be clear - found that Oprah's establishment endorsement in 2008 influenced about a million voters towards supporting Obama.

Kingmaker.

Which led me to looking at celebrity endorsements this cycle. There's no one that high profile. I don't think Susan Sarandon or Katy Perry are really moving the needle much.

Maybe if Ellen got off the fence.

-----

Also, I'm not sure if there's a better source than entrance polling for caucus demographic breakdowns, there probably is. But out of curiosity I looked up 2008 results..

This could be wrong in terms of the actual outcome since it's just an estimate etc, but Edwards actually took the plurality of first time caucus goers?

On the topic of busing people places - did Obama do or have to do anything of the sort to spread his vote around, or was his organisation just that much better?

Iolo said:
It wasn't necessary to bus people around in 2008 because college kids were already at home on break.
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Ah, yes. I did read that now I recall.
Also, I just realised the NYT graphic has used the wrong figure, the CNN interactive has Obama winning first time caucus goers 40:29:18 (O:C:E), which makes a lot more sense.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
shinra-bansho said:
So, she's not endorsing anyone this primary cycle, but a study - the intricacies I didn't bother to look into to be clear - found that Oprah's establishment endorsement in 2008 influenced about a million voters towards supporting Obama.

Kingmaker.

Which led me to looking at celebrity endorsements this cycle. There's no one that high profile. I don't think Susan Sarandon or Katy Perry are really moving the needle much.

Maybe if Ellen got off the fence.

-----

Also, I'm not sure if there's a better source than entrance polling for caucus demographic breakdowns, there probably is. But out of curiosity I looked up 2008 results..

This could be wrong in terms of the actual outcome since it's just an estimate etc, but Edwards actually took the plurality of first time caucus goers?

On the topic of busing people places - did Obama do or have to do anything of the sort to spread his vote around, or was his organisation just that much better?
Click to expand...

Obama's organization is legend, even today no one has outdone or even matched it.
 
I

Iolo

Member
shinra-bansho said:
On the topic of busing people places - did Obama do or have to do anything of the sort to spread his vote around, or was his organisation just that much better?
Click to expand...

It wasn't necessary to bus people around in 2008 because college kids were already at home on break.
 
U

ugaboga232

Member
I know I've said this a lot but its my pet issue that major depression alone is going to overtake cardiac issues very soon (in a few years) as the most disabling disease in the US and it already costs a shit ton in money and lives. We really need better treatments and better access. Also get rid of schedule 1 so researchers can do their job making better treatments based off of schedule 1 drugs.
 
U

User 463088

Banned
ugaboga232 said:
I know I've said this a lot but its my pet issue that major depression alone is going to overtake cardiac issues very soon (in a few years) as the most disabling disease in the US and it already costs a shit ton in money and lives. We really need better treatments and better access. Also get rid of schedule 1 so researchers can do their job making better treatments based off of schedule 1 drugs.
Click to expand...

I agree. We also need to deal with the stigma around mental health issues. I don't know how we do that, but we really, really need to. I think a big part of this would be helping train primary care physicians to be more involved in this aspect of health care. Take my mom, for instance. She suffers from depression, and has since she was very young. She also takes medicine that can make her symptoms worse, because she has other medical issues that require these treatments. She was going through a rough patch and actually brought it up with her GP. His response was "You should probably see a psychiatrist if you think you're having problems, but there aren't any good ones, so I'll just increase your anti-depressant." It was completely flippant and completely ignored what she was trying to bring up with him.

When I lived in Florida, before I lost my vision, I was an ophthalmic technician who worked with low vision patients. We worked with people who were recently diagnosed with vision ending/changin disorders, or those who had become (or we're becoming) blind. We made sure we had a psychologist and social worker on staff at all times, because to ignore the mental health aspect of it would have been insane. It was integrated into our practice, not outside of it. Just hoping someone would self-refer to get help coping is ridiculous.
 
P

Pryce

Member
adam387 said:
I agree. We also need to deal with the stigma around mental health issues. I don't know how we do that, but we really, really need to. I think a big part of this would be helping train primary care physicians to be more involved in this aspect of health care. Take my mom, for instance. She suffers from depression, and has since she was very young. She also takes medicine that can make her symptoms worse, because she has other medical issues that require these treatments. She was going through a rough patch and actually brought it up with her GP. His response was "You should probably see a psychiatrist if you think you're having problems, but there aren't any good ones, so I'll just increase your anti-depressant." It was completely flippant and completely ignored what she was trying to bring up with him.

When I lived in Florida, before I lost my vision, I was an ophthalmic technician who worked with low vision patients. We worked with people who were recently diagnosed with vision ending/changin disorders, or those who had become (or we're becoming) blind. We made sure we had a psychologist and social worker on staff at all times, because to ignore the mental health aspect of it would have been insane. It was integrated into our practice, not outside of it. Just hoping someone would self-refer to get help coping is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Man, that's horrible.

At the GP I go to they make sure to ask questions about your mental health. I went to the doctor a couple of months ago and when I saw the docter they asked if I had any depression, and how my stress was and all of that. I guess I'm lucky in that reard.
 
N

neurosisxeno

Member
B-Dubs said:
So what, he's gonna force O'Malley to stay in the race to keep the heat off him? I'm calling bullshit here.
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His campaign will write it off as him standing up for more fair elections, and say it's to show is respect for his fellow candidates no matter what their polling numbers are.
 
U

ugaboga232

Member
adam387 said:
I agree. We also need to deal with the stigma around mental health issues. I don't know how we do that, but we really, really need to. I think a big part of this would be helping train primary care physicians to be more involved in this aspect of health care. Take my mom, for instance. She suffers from depression, and has since she was very young. She also takes medicine that can make her symptoms worse, because she has other medical issues that require these treatments. She was going through a rough patch and actually brought it up with her GP. His response was "You should probably see a psychiatrist if you think you're having problems, but there aren't any good ones, so I'll just increase your anti-depressant." It was completely flippant and completely ignored what she was trying to bring up with him.

When I lived in Florida, before I lost my vision, I was an ophthalmic technician who worked with low vision patients. We worked with people who were recently diagnosed with vision ending/changin disorders, or those who had become (or we're becoming) blind. We made sure we had a psychologist and social worker on staff at all times, because to ignore the mental health aspect of it would have been insane. It was integrated into our practice, not outside of it. Just hoping someone would self-refer to get help coping is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Yea med school now heavily heavily focuses on the biopsychosocial impacts of a disease and not just the bio. Education, much easier access to mental health check ups (maybe even something dumb like get 30 dollars to see a therapist at least once a year could probably help everyone) and waiting for the next generation are probably the best ways I think. Now I can't speak for every medical school, but doctors are somewhat aware of the psychological impacts of diseases (we had an exercise where everyone had to use a wheelchair for a day in order to understand the lack of freedom and the psychological impact). And whoever becomes president better increase funding for access to therapy and research. I hope your mom is doing better! And its incredible how we expect people who have a disease that inhibits them from doing things to go out and be very proactive.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
neurosisxeno said:
His campaign will write it off as him standing up for more fair elections, and say it's to show is respect for his fellow candidates no matter what their polling numbers are.
Click to expand...

Hillary should say he can stay if he can get any delegates between now and the next debate, if he can't there's no point in wasting anyone's time. Fuck, O'Malley won't stay in past New Hampshire anyway. Bernie's just looking for someone to hit Hillary so he doesn't have to.
 
S

shinra-bansho

Member
It feels like a weird comment for the campaign to make. "We have momentum now, so we don't want another debate." generally translates to "We think that debates will probably do more harm than good to our candidate."

The "conditions" feel like they're simply a ploy to avoid the one being discussed right now. The DNC isn't going to agree to them, and O'Malley probably isn't even going to be running by then. And they know this.
 
N

neurosisxeno

Member
shinra-bansho said:
It feels like a weird comment for the campaign to make. "We have momentum now, so we don't want another debate." generally translates to "We think that debates will probably do more harm than good to our candidate."
Click to expand...

Which they would follow up with; "We have already committed to events all around the country, and backing out of them for a few surprise debates would mean people would miss out on the chance to attend the events already planned."
 
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