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[Black Mamba]

Webb was boring as heck...and he smirked about killing someone?

Chafee was HORRIBLE. I don't know how else to describe his performance. He's terrible at this, holy shit. his answer to his voting was amazingly bad.

I thought O'Malley won the "hey, who is this guy, maybe I should research him" part of the lower 3. He came off well, overall. Not that he has a shot in hell, but saying.

Thought Bernie did enough. He shouldn't lose support but I don't know if he will gain more support than the normal bump some get from being in the debate next to an incumbent (not that Hillary is one but is like one).

Hillary won by looking really good. We could argue who won on the substance, but her debate performance pretty much sealed it for the Primary so long as there's no misstep to come.


Was nice to see a debate different than the clown show the GOP ran.

 

[B-Dubs]

Shots fired at B-Dubs: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=181596870&postcount=4627

I freely admit it wasn't my best work, I was rushed. The last thread had a week of prep, this one had two hours. Not nearly enough time to get the pics, gifs, and research in to really do a number. That said, while some of the jokes went over people's heads, others did enjoy it. I'll be taking it as a learning experience if I'm allowed to do the GOP debate again.

Twitter data, thanks to lednerg in the debate thread:


plus, facebook data:

I wish Sanders supporters werent so freaking engaged with social media. They render this type of data useless.

Well this type of data will always be useless, a large part of the electorate, old people, are computer illiterate and they're the ones that vote in large numbers during the primaries. It's why polling cell phones only caught on in the 2014 election.

Webb was boring as heck...and he smirked about killing someone?

Chafee was HORRIBLE. I don't know how else to describe his performance. He's terrible at this, holy shit. his answer to his voting was amazingly bad.

I thought O'Malley won the "hey, who is this guy, maybe I should research him" part of the lower 3. He came off well, overall. Not that he has a shot in hell, but saying.

Thought Bernie did enough. He shouldn't lose support but I don't know if he will gain more support than the normal bump some get from being in the debate next to an incumbent (not that Hillary is one but is like one).

Hillary won by looking really good. We could argue who won on the substance, but her debate performance pretty much sealed it for the Primary so long as there's no misstep to come.

Was nice to see a debate different than the clown show the GOP ran.

Basically everyone performed as expected then.

 

[neurosisxeno]

I think the numbers will stay the same, maybe O'Malley will pick up some support. I see no way Webb and Chafee don't completely disappear after this. I firmly believe Webb was only running to try and get a cabinet or even VP position, and Chafee seemed completely outmatched when he did get a chance to speak. I think the Gun answer tripped Bernie up, but I also think it might help him with Independents. Hillary came out swinging and basically called for a Liberal War on the NRA, which won't sit well with pro-2A Dems and Independents. I would say overall Hillary won, but not by as much as some people claim. Bernie did about as well as I expected, and I think in the next debate he will be a lot more formidable. I never expected him to outspeak Clinton from day one, the first debate was more about exposure since he regularly gets 30-40% "don't knows" in polls.

 

[jtb]

No matter how much new exposure Bernie got out of this debate, it's hard for me to see it benefiting anyone more than Hillary—it basically cemented that there is no reason for Biden to run and there is no viable path for him to enter the race, particularly this late in the game.

 

[thepotatoman]

Socialism wasn't lost to the Reagan era. It wasn't Reagan who threw Debs in prison. Hell, Reagan fought against the Hollywood blacklist as the head of the union lol. American opposition to "SOCIALISM" has always been more of a nationalistic/xenophobic thing than an ideological thing I find.

Your redistribution thing just sends you into the weeds of who really "deserves" or "created" wealth. "You didn't build that" redux.

True about the reagan thing. Wasn't really thinking when I said that.

As far as the "deserves" part, I think that question does need to be asked. As a society we say people don't deserve things they steal, and maybe billionares only deserve to be millionares compared to how much they contribute to the system. I know that won't hold well with non-aggression principle types, but it's not like Sanders is winning them over when he attacks the rich every single chance he gets. I don't know if building up a previously unpopular word is worth it, but that probably defines his positions way better than socialism does.

 

[B-Dubs]

No matter how much new exposure Bernie got out of this debate, it's hard for me to see it benefiting anyone more than Hillary—it basically cemented that there is no reason for Biden to run and there is no viable path for him to enter the race, particularly this late in the game.

He needed a killer performance and for Hillary to completely bomb to change the way this race was going and he got neither. In addition she probably scared off Biden. Bernie might see a small bump after tonight, but Hillary just locked up the nomination.

 

[FiggyCal]

At least Bernie is aware enough not to say the liberal socialist line that his followers sometimes use. I want to think that he actually is a democratic socialist and when he outright says that he's not a capitalist. That's pretty comforting.

 

[And_Gignac]

He needed a killer performance and for Hillary to completely bomb to change the way this race was going and he got neither. In addition she probably scared off Biden. Bernie might see a small bump after tonight, but Hillary just locked up the nomination.

Sanders needed three things to become viable:

1. Winning the debate (getting the headlines, basically).
2. Joe Biden in the race.
3. Winning Iowa/NH.

Due to tonights events, I am getting the feeling he is done for and his campaign will now actually become a Ron Paul sized mess (mostly because of his paranoid followers, you can see this already happening on reddit).

Theres still certain room for doubt, though, since he didnt actually failed or anything. He actually did good to amazing (sans that rough first half). How will the masses respond now that he got the exposure? If he can break the high 30s a week-two weeks from now, I´d say he still has a chance if he wins Iowa. I am not hopeful, though.

 

[Retromelon]

I was not expecting hillary to be so damned polished. There's no fun in this game anymore. Maybe I should go all in on chafee

She did so well she's got melkr and I both shook

 

[FiggyCal]

Sanders needed three things to become viable:

1. Winning the debate (getting the headlines, basically).
2. Joe Biden in the race.
3. Winning Iowa/NH.

Due to tonights events, I am getting the feeling he is done for and his campaign will now actually become a Ron Paul sized mess (mostly because of his paranoid followers, you can see this already happening on reddit).

Theres still certain room for doubt, though, since he didnt actually failed or anything. He actually did good to amazing (sans that rough first half). How will the masses respond now that he got the exposure? If he can break the high 30s a week-two weeks from now, I´d say he still has a chance if he wins Iowa. I am not hopeful, though.

He did better than I thought he would. I don't know if I'd say his run is over. But I also think it's wrong tospeak about the race like it was competitive to begin with.

 

[B-Dubs]

Sanders needed three things to become viable:

1. Winning the debate (getting the headlines, basically).
2. Joe Biden in the race.
3. Winning Iowa/NH.

Due to tonights events, I am getting the feeling he is done for and his campaign will now actually become a Ron Paul sized mess (mostly because of his paranoid followers, you can see this already happening on reddit).

Theres still certain room for doubt, though, since he didnt actually failed or anything. He actually did good to amazing (sans that rough first half). How will the masses respond now that he got the exposure? If he can break the high 30s a week-two weeks from now, I´d say he still has a chance if he wins Iowa. I am not hopeful, though.

I don't entirely agree about Biden, I think he would have stolen a lot of the hype Bernie had been building, but I agree with your other points.

Some people have made the Ron Paul comparison before, but it's become much more apparent after the debate. Going forward his main goal should be managing the expectations of his supporters and making sure they not only turn out for the general, but don't turn into Paul-ites or Bernie-ites in this case.

I'm still not entirely sure he expected to do as well as he has so far and he should be proud of the work he's done. Bernie has been punching above his weight for months now and has given us a far better fight than anyone ever thought he could. He's pulled Clinton to the left on a few issues important to him and for him I think that's mission accomplished.

All that said, he should still keep pushing hard because him being there is making this a far better race than it would otherwise have been.

I was not expecting hillary to be so damned polished. There's no fun in this game anymore. Maybe I should go all in on chafee

This was as expected for Hillary. Honestly, she could have done better. Remember that she regularly beat Obama at the debates in 2008 and that takes skills. At the end of that primary season both of them came out as far better debaters and candidates than they had started as. If Obama hadn't been a once in a generation politician he probably wouldn't have beat her.

 

[benjipwns]

I find Sanders self-definition thing to just be an odd way of trying to set himself apart from the Party he basically supports and is running for the nomination of.

I wonder if he's closer to if Rand Paul or Ted Cruz were listed as Independents than a truly ideological Democratic Socialist.

Sanders has voted with the Democrats 95% of the time. Paul has voted 78% with the Republicans. Ted Cruz has voted 80% of the time with Republicans. Lindsey Graham voted 87%. Rubio voted 90%. They've voted 31%, 17%, 26% and 14% with Sanders.

Elizabeth Warren has voted 97% of the time with the Democrats and 92% of the time with Sanders. Leahy is at 97% and 94%. Al Franken is at 96% and 91%. Tammy Baldwin is at 97% and 94%. Bob Casey is at 91% and 85%. Schumer's at 97% and 89%.

Manchin is at 70% and 68%.

Angus and Bernie vote together 80% of the time.

 

[benjipwns]

Some people have made the Ron Paul comparison before, but it's become much more apparent after the debate. Going forward his main goal should be managing the expectations of his supporters and making sure they not only turn out for the general, but don't turn into Paul-ites or Bernie-ites in this case.

The Paul-ites used the 2012 primaries to seize control of a lot of state and local parties and pissed off the GOP Establishment to the point of lawsuits invalidating party rules. So I wouldn't necessarily ward them off that path...

 

[ivysaur12]

Sanders needed three things to become viable:

1. Winning the debate (getting the headlines, basically).
2. Joe Biden in the race.
3. Winning Iowa/NH.

Due to tonights events, I am getting the feeling he is done for and his campaign will now actually become a Ron Paul sized mess (mostly because of his paranoid followers, you can see this already happening on reddit).

Theres still certain room for doubt, though, since he didnt actually failed or anything. He actually did good to amazing (sans that rough first half). How will the masses respond now that he got the exposure? If he can break the high 30s a week-two weeks from now, I´d say he still has a chance if he wins Iowa. I am not hopeful, though.

I agree with all of this, and am too doubtful that it will come to pass.

 

[And_Gignac]

I was not expecting hillary to be so damned polished. There's no fun in this game anymore. Maybe I should go all in on chafee

She did so well she's got melkr and I both shook

I am stilll shaking and crying in a corner tbh. My poor Bernie. I cant believe this is the end.

 

[FiggyCal]

I am stilll shaking and crying in a corner tbh. My poor Bernie. I cant believe this is the end.

Are you just pretending to feel this way and then when the polls come out -- you'll be as "surprised" as the rest of us?

 

[ivysaur12]

I think if anyone's numbers are going to go down, it'll be Biden's.

 

[B-Dubs]

The Paul-ites used the 2012 primaries to seize control of a lot of state and local parties and pissed off the GOP Establishment to the point of lawsuits invalidating party rules. So I wouldn't necessarily ward them off that path...

While this is true, and as I said I do hope they stay involved, I do hope they don't go nearly as crazy and try to hijack every movement that looks even remotely similar to theirs. Occupy Wallstreet was a pretty big mess thanks in part to Paul-ites showing up and trying to co-opt it with their gold standard shit.

I think if anyone's numbers are going to go down, it'll be Biden's.

I'm sad, but I agree. There's no room for him to jump in and I suspect he'll be announcing he won't be running before the end of the month.

It's going to solidify the Obama coalition for Hillary and leave everyone else to fight over the scraps.

 

[benjipwns]

Occupy Wall Street was a pretty big mess because it was a "movement" and that explanation was as detailed as it ever got. And things like "goals" were just too restricting.

Also, progressive stacks.

Actually, the entire reason is probably progressive stacks. Or down twinkles.

Spoiler

(Heaven forbid they copy the Tea Party by challenging Democrats in primaries.)

 

[benjipwns]

The greatest of all OWS stories: http://www.thenation.com/article/164348/audacity-occupy-wall-street?page=full

A few years ago, Joe Therrien, a graduate of the NYC Teaching Fellows program, was working as a full-time drama teacher at a public elementary school in New York City. Frustrated by huge class sizes, sparse resources and a disorganized bureaucracy, he set off to the University of Connecticut to get an MFA in his passion—puppetry. Three years and $35,000 in student loans later

At one of Arts and Culture’s meetings—held adjacent to 60 Wall Street, at a quieter public-private indoor park that’s also the atrium of Deutsche Bank—it dawned on Joe: “I have to build as many giant puppets as I can to help this thing out—people love puppets!” And so Occupy Wall Street’s Puppet Guild, one of about a dozen guilds under the Arts and Culture working group, was born. In the spirit of OWS, Joe works in loose and rolling collaboration with others who share his passion for puppetry or whose projects somehow momentarily coincide with his mission. With the help of a handful of people, he built the twelve-foot Statue of Liberty puppet that had young and old alike flocking to him on October 8 in Washington Square Park. Right now, he’s working with nearly thirty artists to stage Occupy Halloween, when his newest creations, a twelve-foot Wall Street bull and a forty-foot Occupied Brooklyn Bridge inspired by Chinese paper dragons—along with a troupe of dancers playing corporate vampires—will inject a little bit of countercultural messaging into the annual parade of Snookis and and True Blood wannabes strutting down Sixth Avenue.

awww they almost hit their goal:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/369758513/occupy-wall-street-needs-giant-puppets-to-spread-o

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

It's too bad, Biden is the only guy who could beat Republicans in the general soundly as it currently stands.

 

[neurosisxeno]

It's too bad, Biden is the only guy who could beat Republicans in the general soundly as it currently stands.

Except that probably isn't true. People love the idea of Biden, but even in 2008 he was not a real contender. Being VP for 7 years hasn't really changed much about him. He's still the lovable creepy uncle character he was back then.

 

[benjipwns]

Biden is the not-Clinton, not-Sanders, not-Republican, candidate essentially.

With him out, the vast majority of those not-Republican votes would drift back to Clinton. I'd almost guarantee it, except for the fact that she'll be in prison.

 

[B-Dubs]

Occupy Wall Street was a pretty big mess because it was a "movement" and that explanation was as detailed as it ever got. And things like "goals" were just too restricting.

Also, progressive stacks.

Actually, the entire reason is probably progressive stacks. Or down twinkles.

Spoiler

(Heaven forbid they copy the Tea Party by challenging Democrats in primaries.)

This is true, but the Paul-ites didn't exactly help the muddled messaging.

 

[And_Gignac]

Are you just pretending to feel this way and then when the polls come out -- you'll be as "surprised" as the rest of us?

Not at all. Theres still an argument to be made that he may increase his numbers to competitive levels after the exposure of the debate --I am not ruling out that possibility. But, wIth Biden out of the picture, Clinton lead grows from "big but reachable" to "gigantic, we need a miracle".

The debate certainly leaves you with a bit more pessimism than optimiism about Sanders, as of now. Lets see what the polls say, though.

 

[B-Dubs]

Not at all. Theres still an argument to be made that he may increase his numbers to competitive levels after the exposure of the debate --I am not ruling out that possibility. But, wIth Biden out of the picture, Clinton lead grows from "big but reachable" to "gigantic, we need a miracle".

The debate certainly leaves you with a bit more pessimism than optimiism about Sanders, as of now. Lets see what the polls say, though.

Either way, Bernie will still probably win New Hampshire. The demographics of the state and it's location seem tailor made for him.

 

[lednerg]

Occupy Wall Street was a pretty big mess because it was a "movement" and that explanation was as detailed as it ever got. And things like "goals" were just too restricting.

The whole 24/7 occupying thing was too much of a handicap to have to deal with. By the time the media's slacktivist narrative came around, they were too exhausted and beaten down to deal with it. Still, OWS was what initially greased the wheels for various other groups which continue to this day.

Also, goals? Spreading the message that we ought to take money out of politics. That was always the goal. Other things were brought up by individual occupiers, but at the end of the day, what was always agreed on was the obvious influence of Wall Street over our political process.

 

[ErasureAcer]

Hillary came across well at times but every time she fucking started talking about the fact she is a lady I was like "SHUT THE FUCK UP! NO ONE CARES." She got hammered on her banking policy from Bernie and Martin. Her flip-flopping on TPP and Keystone wasn't fooling anyone. Which just ties in to her "gotcha" question to open the debate, she's a flip-flopping weasel which doesn't win elections, just ask John Kerry and Mitt Romney.

Bernie Sanders is only going to go up in the polls after this debate. People had no idea who the hell he was(some polls had him at like 25% don't know enough to form an opinion) and in both the CNN and FOX focus groups the Democrats resonated with him and I'm sure that's how it was with all sorts of Democrats watching across the country.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Hillary came across well at times but every time she fucking started talking about the fact she is a lady I was like "SHUT THE FUCK UP! NO ONE CARES." She got hammered on her banking policy from Bernie and Martin. Her flip-flopping on TPP and Keystone wasn't fooling anyone. Which just ties in to her "gotcha" question to open the debate, she's a flip-flopping weasel which doesn't win elections, just ask John Kerry and Mitt Romney.

Bernie Sanders is only going to go up in the polls after this debate. People had no idea who the hell he was(some polls had him at like 25% don't know enough to form an opinion) and in both the CNN and FOX focus groups the Democrats resonated with him and I'm sure that's how it was with all sorts of Democrats watching across the country.

25% of Democrats didn't know enough or the general electorate? Because I seriously doubt it was the former.

 

[benjipwns]

Also, goals? Spreading the message that we ought to take money out of politics. That was always the goal. Other things were brought up by individual occupiers, but at the end of the day, what was always agreed on was the obvious influence of Wall Street over our political process.

What? I thought it was income/wealth inequality?

 

[B-Dubs]

What? I thought it was income/wealth inequality?

It was, I wish it was led's answer though.

 

[lednerg]

What? I thought it was income/wealth inequality?

Don't. It's the same thing. The inequality stems from the influence the ultra-wealthy have in politics.

 

[pigeon]

I think if anyone's numbers are going to go down, it'll be Biden's.

I look forward to the day when they just stop polling for people that aren't actually running.

 

[B-Dubs]

I look forward to the day when they just stop polling for people that aren't actually running.

I think they'll stop soon enough, Hillary's actually running now and Bernie's performance was good so they'll be able to prop him up as the challenger. They just wanted a fight and now they'll be able to make their own.

 

[benjipwns]

I look forward to the day when they just stop polling for people that aren't actually running.

I think they should try putting Harry S Truman in the polls first.

Honestly, if I ran a polling company it'd probably be almost nothing but hypotheticals like putting Bill Clinton in the GOP field or polling Donald Trump along with the Democratic candidates. Those crosstabs would be awesome.

 

[B-Dubs]

I think they should try putting Harry S Truman in the polls first.

Honestly, if I ran a polling company it'd probably be almost nothing but hypotheticals like putting Bill Clinton in the GOP field or polling Donald Trump along with the Democratic candidates. Those crosstabs would be awesome.

If I am ever the editor-in-chief of a newspaper I am totally going to hire someone to do this.

 

[benjipwns]

Speaking of polling, Webb is in free fall, Clinton surging!

**DRUDGE POLL** WHO WON THE FIRST DEM DEBATE '16?

SANDERS 60.98% (118,710 votes)


WEBB 22.17% (43,151 votes)


CLINTON 6.73% (13,111 votes)


O'MALLEY 6.37% (12,393 votes)


CHAFEE 3.75% (7,306 votes)

 

[ErasureAcer]

For Hillary's college plan...if you're forced to work where are all these jobs coming from? The university themselves? Private sector? Sounds like a bunch of government bureaucracy. 10 hours a week means 10 hours less of studying. If you want to have a job at college for 10 hours a week to afford beer money, great. Working 10 hours/week for "free" (where, she did not explain???) seems like a stupid idea. Maybe she meant volunteer someplace, again...this seems like a huge logistical government program that quite frankly isn't needed when you have a far superior Bernie plan with his 50 cent per a hundred dollars Wall St. speculation tax(.5%).

 

[Chichikov]

For Hillary's college plan...if you're forced to work where are all these jobs coming from? The university themselves? Private sector? Sounds like a bunch of government bureaucracy. 10 hours a week means 10 hours less of studying. If you want to have a job at college for 10 hours a week to afford beer money, great. Working 10 hours/week for "free" (where, she did not explain???) seems like a stupid idea. Maybe she meant volunteer someplace, again...this seems like a huge logistical government program that quite frankly isn't needed when you have a far superior Bernie plan with his 50 cent per a hundred dollars Wall St. speculation tax(.5%).

I hate that plan.
Working for free is never a good idea (well, at least under the current capitalist system) as it contribute to wage suppression. And once again, it fucks the poor people who need to work anyway.
Also, it makes zero economic sense, this is just to preempt the "omg welfare queens omg lazy millennial" narrative that would surely try to counter such plans, but that's not a good enough reason to do that shit, especially as you're conceding the bigger framing of the issue.

 

[ErasureAcer]

I hate that plan.
Working for free is never a good idea (well, at least under the current capitalist system) as it contribute to wage suppression. And once again, it fucks the poor people who need to work anyway.
Also, it makes zero economic sense, this is just to preempt the "omg welfare queens omg lazy millennial" narrative that would surely try to counter such plans, but that's not a good enough reason to do that shit, especially as you're conceding the bigger framing of the issue.

I agree. It's a bunch of red-tape mumbo jumbo that puts these workers forced into a system where bad things are only likely to happen. Trying to find a place of employment/volunteering that will take the worker. Strong-armed demands from the employers...do this or else you're fired and you lose your college. A lot of government cash working out all the paperwork. It seems like a complicated, unneeded mess when there are better options out there like Bernie's proposal.

 

[neurosisxeno]

I hate that plan.
Working for free is never a good idea (well, at least under the current capitalist system) as it contribute to wage suppression. And once again, it fucks the poor people who need to work anyway.
Also, it makes zero economic sense, this is just to preempt the "omg welfare queens omg lazy millennial" narrative that would surely try to counter such plans, but that's not a good enough reason to do that shit, especially as you're conceding the bigger framing of the issue.

Indentured Servitude was all the rage in the pre-19th century years.

 

[benjipwns]

Unfortunately our tyrant Presidents Clinton and Bush signed a law outlawing it. Obama allowed it to lapse in 2011 but then was tricked into signing it again when it was attached to the Violence Against Women Act. (As part of his support for violence against women.)

I imagine there's a "loophole" in there for the government though. Like with student loans.

 

[benjipwns]

So CNBC announced their debate criteria earlier which could lead to a limbo for one candidate in a debate. At the time Rand Paul was in the position. They set 2.5+% for the first debate, 1-2.4% for the second tier. Paul at the time was at 2.3%.

Now Paul has moved up to 2.7% and Christie is down to 1.9%.

If they were willing to kick out Graham and Pataki they could actually do two tiers of six.

Trump-Carson-Rubio-Fiorina-Bush-Cruz
Kasich-Huckabee-Paul-Christie-Jindal-Santorum

They could also flip either of those last two for whoever of the Jindal/Santorum/Graham/Pataki battle for less than 1% leads. Or just have an eight-man second tier I suppose.

I think the five-person debate showed how much more was available with fewer candidates, IIRC Trump got something like 15 minutes in the CNN debate, Clinton and Sanders got twice that amount, Webb and O'Malley got more, and even Chafee got almost 10 minutes.

Fox Business should consider doing it like that for their debate if CNBC isn't willing to change criteria. (And if they aren't THEY BETTER have the one-person debate.)

 

[titiklabingapat]

I'm legit shook that melkr_ is legit shook after the debates.

 

[BertramCooper]

Didn't watch much of it, since I'm the oldest 28-year-old on the planet and go to bed at 9 p.m.

Sounds like Hillary had a pretty great debate, which I figured she would. She's a solid debater. Also, much respect to Sen. Sanders for not taking the bait on the email stuff. I figured that's about how he'd respond to it. I hope it convinces some of his more rabid followers (ErasureAcer, cough, cough) to cut out the vitriol.

Again, these people = adults. Republicans = children. That's the most important message to convey at the Democratic debates.

 

[neurosisxeno]

I'm as hard a Bernie supporter as they come, but I didn't really expect him to win the debate, as much as get his message across and inform the masses what he was about. A lot of the more ardent Bernie supporters have proclaimed him the winner, but I disagree. Hillary won the debate, and it shouldn't be surprising considering it's her second stab at it and she's a career politician with the best support staff and preparation out there. She was on point, and didn't fall for any of the bait they tried to set for her.

That being said, I think Bernie did a lot of things right, that people are overlooking. His embracing a moderate view on gun control will probably be a benefit to him when it comes to Independents, despite it being almost the sole issue Hillary is more to the left on. His being supportive on Hillary at times and that line ("enough of your damn e-mails") might have been what get a lot of people interested in him--he's not the cut throat candidates we've seen since 2000, and the American people are tired of the negativity and personal attacks in political campaigns. I think he did excellent when it came to Economic and Race issues, where Hillary and O'Malley were a lot less committal. I think putting emphasis on his belief of "war as a last resort" did a great job to diffuse some of the tension from his Gun stance in certain ways--assures people he's not some gun loving pro-war pro-violence candidate.

I think his campaign will be fine, and maybe even grow because of O'Malley potentially stripping some votes off both of them, more so off Hillary. Overall, the debate just cemented my belief that there is no way a Democrat loses this election.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

I'm as hard a Bernie supporter as they come, but I didn't really expect him to win the debate, as much as get his message across and inform the masses what he was about. A lot of the more ardent Bernie supporters have proclaimed him the winner, but I disagree. Hillary won the debate, and it shouldn't be surprising considering it's her second stab at it and she's a career politician with the best support staff and preparation out there. She was on point, and didn't fall for any of the bait they tried to set for her.

That being said, I think Bernie did a lot of things right, that people are overlooking. His embracing a moderate view on gun control will probably be a benefit to him when it comes to Independents, despite it being almost the sole issue Hillary is more to the left on. His being supportive on Hillary at times and that line ("enough of your damn e-mails") might have been what get a lot of people interested in him--he's not the cut throat candidates we've seen since 2000, and the American people are tired of the negativity and personal attacks in political campaigns. I think he did excellent when it came to Economic and Race issues, where Hillary and O'Malley were a lot less committal. I think putting emphasis on his belief of "war as a last resort" did a great job to diffuse some of the tension from his Gun stance in certain ways--assures people he's not some gun loving pro-war pro-violence candidate.

I think his campaign will be fine, and maybe even grow because of O'Malley potentially stripping some votes off both of them, more so off Hillary. Overall, the debate just cemented my belief that there is no way a Democrat loses this election.

Why would gun loving independents vote for Sanders when they can get the real deal in any Republican? Makes no sense why people see that as a positive but any centrist issue Clinton has it's suddenly shill shill shill.

At least be consistent.

 

[East Lake]

Why would gun loving independents vote for Sanders when they can get the real deal in any Republican? Makes no sense why people see that as a positive but any centrist issue Clinton has it's suddenly shill shill shill.

At least be consistent.

Not that I buy that it will really help him with independents but not all gun owners necessarily agree with GOP policies on it.

 

[neurosisxeno]

Why would gun loving independents vote for Sanders when they can get the real deal in any Republican? Makes no sense why people see that as a positive but any centrist issue Clinton has it's suddenly shill shill shill.

At least be consistent.

Because the Republicans platform is pretty much crap outside of being Pro-2A. There are a lot of people who have Gun Rights as their sole deciding issue, and would love to vote for a Democrat but they keep going more left on Gun Control, and it's a losing battle. The second amendment isn't going anywhere and the Gun Control laws we currently have don't exactly help. Hillary saying "We need to take on the NRA" really turns people off.

What Centrist issues does Clinton have that I have scoffed at?

 

[Officerrob]

John Heilemann: "Hillary mopped the floor with that group"