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PoliGAF 2016 |OT11| Well this is exciting

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That Trump has repeatedly called for war with Iran makes Russia's overwhelming support for Trump very confusing, I have to say.

I don't think Vladimir Putin is very smart at all.
 

Bowdz

Member
Most Socialists are too eager to say "everything Trump has been accusing of doing wrt destroying U.S. norms, W already did!" but the media probably should look more at how post-truth politics came from Newt Gingrich and W post-9/11.

Seriously.

Norman Ornstein and Thomas Mann lay the blame for the current gridlock straight at the feet of Gingrich in It's Worse Than it Was. He was the genesis of the breakdown of bipartisanship and the increase in truthiness. He truly is a sack of shit.
 

Dierce

Member
That Trump has repeatedly called for war with Iran makes Russia's overwhelming support for Trump very confusing, I have to say.

I don't think Vladimir Putin is very smart at all.

Putin wants the US to no longer have an influential presence in the Middle East and Europe. He will accomplish that right out of the gate if orange turd is elected. Few countries in the world would respect a US government headed by a fascist turd.
 
But why should we average them? Do we have any statistical reason to suppose that averaging them gives us a more accurate result? No. We don't know which voter turnout model is right, I agree. But that doesn't mean we should therefore create an entirely new voter turnout model by averaging the all the other voter turnout models. Rather, we should either present the one we find most credible, or present multiple models having eliminated all those we find incredible. At least then, we can compare the different models to the final turnout, and find out whether our credibility was well-founded or not, rather than having one smushy model that makes examining whether individual assumptions worked or not very difficult.

Nate sort of does this. This is what the adjusted leader business is. He has examined how different methodologies fared in prior elections, tried to correct results produced by these methodologies accordingly to produce results that are tantamount to being produced by the same methodology, and then averaged those. But people have spent the last few pages attacking this. Baffling.

Okay, see y'all at the debate after this response.

I agree but how do we know which voter turnout model is right when we don't even get to see their turnout model? Often, we just see the numbers and maybe some cross-tabs but not enough data to know how many of what will vote.

If I give you 5 polls, all from good pollsters historically, but no actual idea how they set up their LV screen or turnout model, you either can average them or ignore them. There's no real middle ground, there.

Silver, imo, does a lot of things right in his model like the stuff you mention here. But that doesn't mean he's perfect or close to it.

I have attacked Silver for certain things, like improperly using a Loess regression for an election model to set up a trend or for getting things absolutely wrong (which I was right on my criticism of him calling the race a dead heat based on national vote percentages, he even backtracked on it!)

I think his model has a few holes and I hope he fixes them going forward.
 

Amir0x

Banned
What if there's a third Trump no one has conceived of yet. Kindly Trump?

According to this lady on MSNBC who said she spent all afternoon on the phone with both campaigns, they've prepared for that too. Some examples she listed was if Trump congratulates Hillary on being the first female nominee, or if he says what a wonderful job she did raising Chelsea Clinton. Clinton is prepared for that too.

So basically Clinton has all chess moves prepared for any eventuality.
 
Putin wants the US to no longer have an influential presence in the Middle East and Europe. He will accomplish that right out of the gate if orange turd is elected. Few countries in the world would respect a US government headed by a fascist turd.

Trump has outlined several different avenues which would provoke a war with Iran which would make the U.S. far more involved in the Middle East than before.

And Russia has like four allies, one of which is Iran.
 

Crayons

Banned
Afraid my underage self has no alcohol for this debate. I'm going to get high instead. This is the biggest television event of this year for me
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
According to this lady on MSNBC who said she spent all afternoon on the phone with both campaigns, they've prepared for that too. Some examples she listed was if Trump congratulates Hillary on being the first female nominee, or if he says what a wonderful job she did raising Chelsea Clinton. Clinton is prepared for that too.

So basically Clinton has all chess moves prepared for any eventuality.

So what we're saying is that she's the Batman.
 
According to this lady on MSNBC who said she spent all afternoon on the phone with both campaigns, they've prepared for that too. Some examples she listed was if Trump congratulates Hillary on being the first female nominee, or if he says what a wonderful job she did raising Chelsea Clinton. Clinton is prepared for that too.

So basically Clinton has all chess moves prepared for any eventuality.

I hope in either cases she calls him out, but I know the media will pounce on her if she did strike back after such a manipulative move.
 

Dierce

Member
Trump has outlined several different avenues which would provoke a war with Iran which would make the U.S. far more involved in the Middle East than before.

And Russia has like four allies, one of which is Iran.

Putin will just sit in the sidelines as the leader of a coalition of countries that are against the war. It will probably include every country in the world other than UK and Israel therefore growing Russia's influence.
 

Revolver

Member
Because she doesn't know for sure and she's used to campaigns making sense. Most anchors don't have sufficient facts ready to contradict so many lies, so they just stay quiet. The Trump campaign knows this.

To her credit Gwen Ifill noted that was false in the panel follow up. But wondered if the truth even matters to people any more.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
In your previous example, for instance, where you had polls showing Trump +1, Clinton +1, Clinton +5, the assumption from you was that the Trump +1 poll was correct, so we shouldn't average these results, but take that poll. But what's your argument for doing so? It's obvious is the others were clearly bad (maybe landline only or something), but that isn't very interesting.

There are many arguments we can make to judge polls. That was my old job - trying to figure out what LV screens work best. You're right that after a certain point the differences become very subtle, although usually surmountable, but even if they weren't...

It's more accurate to average them and get Clinton +2 than it is to just guess which of the three is correct.

...this is still wrong. Accurate has a specific definition. A sample is accurate if the expected outcome is equal to the population. If one of the samples is more accurate than the others, then averaging it produces a new, less accurate sample. Suppose we don't have any reason to suppose that any of the samples is any more accurate than the other. This implies that we *also* don't have any reason to suppose that average would be any more accurate than the original samples. So there's *still* no reason to average.

Instead, the best thing to do, in the absence of any other information, is just to provide all three separate results, with the different assumptions attached. That's it. You could provide the average too, but it doesn't give you any additional information; unlike the average of two samples with identical methodology. This is just the Popperian paradigm at work.

This is in fact my current frustration with Silver! I don't particularly know whether his model right now is correct or not, and won't until the election if ever, but his reasoning for why he does what he does is really poor.

Again, with respect, I think perhaps you do not have sufficient statistical understanding to be able to assess whether his reasoning is poor or not.

And this isn't me being particularly favourable to Silver. I think he's terribly smug on Twitter and a very poor quality pundit. I'm just saying that his assumptions are reasonable. Wang thinks that elections are determined to a high degree by a relatively small number of important inputs. Silver thinks that elections are determined to a high degree by a relatively large number of dispersed inputs. Neither of these is better or worse practice; I've seen people argue quite persuasively for both. It's unlikely you could definitely determine which is better because presidential elections aren't actually drawn from the same distribution, you're facing a constantly moving target - presidential elections might, for example, become progressively more dependent on a larger number of inputs over time. So both models can and should co-exist. I think most of the spats between Silver and Wang are just because they're competitors.

I think the sharpest criticism you could launch at Silver is something like: the more inputs a model has, the more uncertainty it has. As uncertainty increases, linear estimators tend towards the geometric mean (this has a long explanation, but essentially in a two-person race, it tends towards a 50/50 forecast). A 50/50 forecast implies a 'dead heat'. Dead heats generate the most attention, which translates into money for ESPN. So, Silver isn't creating an inaccurate model, but he might be overly keen to include inputs because the model produces more profitable punditry as a result. But... this is fine, if you just ignore his punditry, which we all should because he can't write anyway.
 

Bowdz

Member
Trump has outlined several different avenues which would provoke a war with Iran which would make the U.S. far more involved in the Middle East than before.

And Russia has like four allies, one of which is Iran.

True, but what is more beneficial to Russia: maintaining Iran's regional strength or getting the US bogged down in a potentially worse war than Iraq that further destroys our international reputation and destroys our budget. If I were Russia, I'd push further into Ukraine or even into the Baltics if the US was bogged down in another catastrophic wat in the Middle East.
 
So what we're saying is that she's the Batman.

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B-Dubs, are you secretly Hillary?
 

Joeytj

Banned
To her credit Gwen Ifill noted that was false in the panel follow up. But wondered if the truth even matters to people any more.

Over the long run... yes. But not in the heat of battle.

A friend on Facebook wrote "Killary" unironically a few hours ago, talking about the debate.

Yes, former Bernie supporter, now for Jill Stein, although honestly, he's one of the few. The vast majority of Berners I know migrated swiftly to Clinton.
 

Effect

Member
Well couldn't find anything to drink tonight. Store that had what I wanted was to far and had errands to run after work so I couldn't make the trip. Ugh.
 

Wilsongt

Member
Dr. Jill Stein
Dr. Jill Stein‏ @DrJillStein

We were immediately escorted off of the Hofstra campus after the press conference just now and told not to do any more press. #debatenight

Stay pressed and irrelevant, Stein.
 

Joeytj

Banned
I am not worried, but I got to say it is especially hard not to drink on nights like these. :(

I'm not used to numbing my panic, stress and nerves with anything, never, but does it work?

I've suffered with panic attacks throughout my life, and learned to live with them and control them, but damn, I can sympathize with people who just say "fuck it" and pop a pill or pour themselves a drink.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I agree but how do we know which voter turnout model is right when we don't even get to see their turnout model? Often, we just see the numbers and maybe some cross-tabs but not enough data to know how many of what will vote.

I agree, actually. It's one reason why a few posts before we started this (very interesting, actually, thank you) discussion I half-jokingly half-seriously asked y2kev if we could ban discussion of pollsters who don't provide either their LV model or RV crosstabs.

If I give you 5 polls, all from good pollsters historically, but no actual idea how they set up their LV screen or turnout model, you either can average them or ignore them. There's no real middle ground, there.

Or you can just treat them as 5 separate predictions which cannot be averaged - it's entirely possible for them just to be incommensurable. If you have an apple, a banana, a pineapple, a squid, and a small retractable selfie-stick, how do you even average them to begin with? Saying you have an appanapineuidelfie doesn't help anyone!

Silver, imo, does a lot of things right in his model like the stuff you mention here. But that doesn't mean he's perfect or close to it.

Agreed, very strongly.

I have attacked Silver for certain things, like improperly using a Loess regression for an election model to set up a trend or for getting things absolutely wrong (which I was right on my criticism of him calling the race a dead heat based on national vote percentages, he even backtracked on it!)

I hadn't actually seen this. Do you have a link?
 

Boke1879

Member
If anything I'm anxious. I get this way before playoff games my teams are in. Like deep down you kinda have a feeling they'll fuck it all up.

But then i always remember Clinton has been in this arena many times. I don't think she'll be rattled. If the email questions are too many she'll probably look a bit annoyed but that's it.

I feel I'm more worried if she has a coughing fit or something.
 

Amir0x

Banned
I'm not used to numbing my panic, stress and nerves with anything, never, but does it work?

I've suffered with panic attacks throughout my life, and learned to live with them and control them, but damn, I can sympathize with people who just say "fuck it" and pop a pill or pour themselves a drink.

I mean it does, which is part of the reason why these things can be so addicting for people. It takes your mind off things. But I can't drink because I've been down the addiction road and can't start it up again with any drug. Too far past that life now. It's just hard on nights like these, 'cause it would loosen me up and get me to have a little more fun about the proceedings... but, shit, it's a small price to pay for staying clean.
 

Veelk

Banned
So, I asked a few weeks back if a presidential debate historically had meaningful sway over an election and most people said that wasn't the case.

Do you guys think it will be this time? I'm trying not to diablos or whatever you call it, but I just want there to be a place where rationality can take control of the direction this race is running, and this seems like the last place where it can happen. But will it be enough?
 
Bout to leave work. can this election all be over?

Where is everyone watching the debate? I know it doesn't start soon, but I need to make sure to find a good place to watch it.

I watched a bunch of republican debates at bars but people were too loud and didn't really watch so I'm watching at home, at least for the first.
 

Wilsongt

Member
So, I asked a few weeks back if a presidential debate historically had meaningful sway over an election and most people said that wasn't the case.

Do you guys think it will be this time? I'm trying not to diablos or whatever you call it, but I just want there to be a place where rationality can take control of the direction this race is running, and this seems like the last place where it can happen. But will it be enough?

Not really. No one is really being swayed at this point. Right now it's a matter of actually getting people to the polls and voting, despite all of the bullshit GOP voting laws they are trying to push through at the 11th hour.

Oh, and to pimp slap all of the people 30 and under saying they are not going to vote because both candidates are the same, Or that they are voting for Johnson and Stein because of establishment or some shit.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
So, I asked a few weeks back if a presidential debate historically had meaningful sway over an election and most people said that wasn't the case.

Do you guys think it will be this time? I'm trying not to diablos or whatever you call it, but I just want there to be a place where rationality can take control of the direction this race is running, and this seems like the last place where it can happen. But will it be enough?

It has impacted elections before - 2000, notably. I think the best answer would probably be something like 'debates only have a very small impact, well below the margin of most presidential races'. Unfortunately, this presidential race seems to have quite a tight margin. So, possibly, if the debate goes very well for Trump or very badly for Clinton, it might change things.
 

Blader

Member
So, I asked a few weeks back if a presidential debate historically had meaningful sway over an election and most people said that wasn't the case.

Do you guys think it will be this time? I'm trying not to diablos or whatever you call it, but I just want there to be a place where rationality can take control of the direction this race is running, and this seems like the last place where it can happen. But will it be enough?
I think historically debates don't move the needle a whole lot, but this year also has a higher-than-normal amount of undecideds (still!) so they could end up mattering more than usual this time.
 
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