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PoliGAF 2016 |OT16| Unpresidented
- Thread starter ItWasMeantToBe19
- Start date
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ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Okay, I just have to say that I'm deeply amused by white evangelicals who think liberals "look down on them."
Motherfucker, your platform says that atheists and Jews and Muslims will be tortured for all eternity.
I mean, you have to view us pretty lowly to think that eternal torture is coming for us.
Motherfucker, your platform says that atheists and Jews and Muslims will be tortured for all eternity.
I mean, you have to view us pretty lowly to think that eternal torture is coming for us.
Vestal
Junior Member
Michelle can be a candidate. She is an inspiring figure. We need a fire spitting person as DNC chair. Someone like Howard Dean. I know some of you have your reservations with him, but he got shit done.
Exactly. If money can be wasted on completely inaccurate and misleading polls then god dammit you can pour it into something constructive like combating awful voter ID laws with a broad and sustained voter education campaign
Poodlestrike
Banned
A lie repeated often enough is indistinguishable from the truth
-Joseph Stalin
"Stalin never said that."
A LIE REPEATED OFTEN ENOUGH IS INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM THE TRUTH
-JOSEPH STALIN
?????
Context please.
Can we put a moratorium on vagueposting?
Things that aren't mutually exclusive:
A) Criticize what Sanders has done in the past or may do in the future (he is a human being with flaws just like everybody
)B) Look forward to working with him and hope he helps move the party in a good direction that can appeal to more voters and gain more federal power
EDIT: Obama is still the de facto "voice" of the party and will be even after he leaves office for what its worth
Poodlestrike
Banned
In what universe is that true?
Because he's sure as hell not my voice. And I'd bet that he's not the voice of the Democratic primary voters. He's the voice of the far left wing, and especially the voice of the "let's just sort of shove women and minorities over into the corner" wing.
And frankly the more I think about it the more I think he's responsible for a lot of the damage. It's harder to brush off an attack ("She's corrupt!") when it's coming from both sides of the aisle. Sure, he turned around, but by that point he'd already poisoned the well.
sazzy
Member
This post has all the information that I need, and I need no further clarification to understand anything.
gutter_trash
Banned
Is Trump going to put intelligence operatives abroad in danger?
UltimaPooh
Member
Yeah. Jesus.
No the secret service has to protect everyone in Trump's cabinet.
No he is not. He's not even a Democrat.
Barack Obama is the leader of the Democratic Party. Even upon leaving office he is still the most popular Democrat to hold office, and will still hold sway with vast swaths of the party.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Yeah, believe me I'm not optimistic at all. Just trying to offer some perspective to people who are in danger of convincing themselves this is all their fault and that the progressive mindset is somehow inherently flawed, that it caused all this.
At this point, I rather more imagine the other half of the country working to turn remaining blue states into fortresses and sanctuaries. Right now, even most of the blue states have way too much red / signs of disenfranchisement outside the cities.
sazzy
Member
I haven't turned on CNN since election night because I'm in no mood to see Corey.
aspiegamer
Member
What percentage of Trump voters do you think even understand how the electoral college works and why/how Trump won? It's either zero, or they're ignorant on what a mandate is. Either way, never forget this fact. More people voted for Clinton. It was a strategic failure and not one of total votes or overall public opinion. We should not be entirely surprised that the guy who's spent his entire life gaming the system to no end won the presidency on the ultimate gamed trick on the planet.
UltimaPooh
Member
Don't think that warranted your original post.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Downplaying the size of the protests is probably better than what his boss was doing on Twitter earlier.
BTW, his tweet earlier was laughable. Nobody likes a whiner.
metalslimer
Member
I feel like an insane person when no one wants to discuss that a Russian intelligence operations to influence our elections was carried out and the media played right along with it.
And it's going to continue for anyone that challenges Trump.
And it's going to continue for anyone that challenges Trump.
I'd imagine that's how his presidency would be. Duterte has to run back his own mouth. Trump has other people do it for him.
You didn't see people mass protesting Obama when he won against Romney in 2012.
Why is that facebook's problem though? As a private company they are similarly allowed to flood it with Breitbart. If that's what people want why shouldn't they?
How a person parses between propaganda and "objective news" is actually a fairly complex question. Why aren't these people informed?
gutter_trash
Banned
I'm talking about CIA agents working under cover abroad who are at risk of getting exposed by Trump's big mouth to Putin
CrimzonSamurai
Member
Too bad he's NOT A MEMBER OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY. On paper or anywhere else.
Because they live in propaganda.
Yes it's annoying hearing the Republican's talk about he now has a mandate since he won. He may have won but he doesn't represent the majority of people. So how is that a mandate at all.
UltimaPooh
Member
Man... the DNC is in dire straights then.
Okay, after taking a long time to try and parse out what actually went wrong, here is what I think. People can feel free to correct me if I make some kind of blatantly obvious error.
First, I think Clinton ran an incredibly honest and integrity driven campaign. There were some questionable spots, and that deplorable gaffe hurt her, but all in all, it's hard for me to find fault with Hillary's conduct in terms of just being a genuinely honest politician trying to make a positive change.
This was not communicated clearly, and I place 90% of the blame squarely on the media for this. Lets get one thing straight here, this was not an election driven by policies. The scandals of Clinton, however hollow and meaningless they were, dominated the news. It didn't matter that Trump's scandals were covered just as much, the fact that her fucking emails kept getting brought up over and over and over and over, it created this sense that both politicians were equally corrupt. I mean, why would the news keep talking about the corrupt things they did if they weren't?
The only way I can see to have countered this was some kind of strong talking point that Clinton had. But honestly, the publicity she had wasn't nearly as marketable as Trump's. "Stronger Together" is very bland and generic and "I'm with Her" is better, but doesn't stick in the mind nearly as much as "Make America Great Again". Granted, it might be because Clinton supporters had actual things of substance to talk about rather than a catchphrase, while every discussion with Trump supporters has them walking the statement into "We're just doing this because we want to Make America Great Again". Obama used a similar rhetorical technique, by making "Yes We Can" the de-facto response to questions. "Can we fix racial inequality?" "Yes we can!" Bernie managed to get one in the primaries. "Feel the Bern" Public relations has always been Hillary's weakest suit, and even as a supporter, I never thought either of her slogans were particularly good.
In terms of policies, Hillary is goddamn unbeatable. She had so many, was so prepared, and manhandled Trump in the debates to an almost embarassing degree. But this race was just never about policies. And I always knew that policies took a backseat to public performance, but the degree to which no one cared that she was going to eliminate student debt was almost bizarre. I heard about that, I almost crapped myself. All my student loans forgiven? That wasn't the thing I was looking most forward to, but it would have benefitted me most directly and I think that's something most young adults face. You tell any newly graduated person you're willing to forgive their student debt, they should kiss you right on the spot, with tongue, whoever you are. But with Hillary, she announced on the DLC and people were like "Meh, that's cool." I was willing to let it go since people were high on hopium, but there is probably something seriously wrong when it's not the other side not talking about the amazing thing your doing, but your own. Like, that should have been the moment that Hillary became the chosen one for the entire mellenial generation. But it was just drowned out somehow...
Speaking of Hopium, I hate to say that pride before the fall shit, but I think it legitimately happened. I mean, we had reason to believe, all the polls were in our favor. That's why Hillary not stepping into Michigan may seem like a idiot error, just look at this. She's consistently leading by a high amount. Trying to win big and go after harder to flip states made some tactical sense. I mean, why waste energy on a state that you almost certainly won when you can get more states, potentially ensuring more electoral votes? I mean, the name of the game is the election, so if you have Michigan in the bag, why not go after something else? I feel this this was the case with Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, even Florida. When you look at these polls on basically any day other than election day, can what prediction would you make based on who'd they go to?
Plus, this is probably the biggest election of all time. The debates were the most watched debates of any presidential election. Everyone saw these debates. Everyone was on every story that was made on it. You'd think this would produce the highest turnout of all time?
Not to mention the minorities. Surely black people wouldn't vote for Trump? They didn't, but more of them voted for Trump than Romney. Same with Hispanics. And Asians. And somehow...SOMEHOW....more than 53% of white women and 43% of women overall voted for Trump. These are all demographics Hillary should have had in the bag, and I'm still baffled that she didn't.
I also think slogans were a big part of it. Had she something flashy like Obama's enduring "Yes We Can", maybe she could have fought back against the media's focus on scandals. But she fought back with policies. Those should be better, if not just as good, but that's not how it works in showmanship. You can argue that she wasn't the right candidate for that alone, but that rubs me the wrong way. At some point, you put the blame on the voters. There's no one that can actually 'make' voters get up and vote, except the voters themselves. And whether they were voting for hillary or against trump, they were given AMPLE reason to do so.
So I feel this is more on voters than on her. Call me a hillary defender or whatever, but when I look at the polls she had available to her at the time, I think she came to the reasonable conclusion that she was gonna win those states. Even Republicans thought she was gonna win those states. And when I see that she's trying everything within her power to do everything right, I can't help but think that's someone I'd be proud to have representing me. Someone who works so hard to do so much good. No, she's not perfect, and she certainly doesn't have the raw charisma or way with words or slogan of Obama, but she still had so much good behind her.
But ultimately, voters have to show up, and they can vote or not vote for whoever and whatever reason they want. I like to think that they were just drunk on Hopium, that many stayed home thinking "Look at those polls! There's no way Trump takes my state. I'm just gonna sit this one out". I still want to punch these people in the face, but those voters are still well intentioned, you know? They just made a really big statistical critical error.
It's the voters that never got past her shrill voice that get me. The voters who listened to her email scandals being covered over and over without doing research to find out how meaningless they were. Voters who thought her getting pneumonia was a sign of weakness, or "Just can't start to like her". I hope they are a minority in this.
I don't know. This is my assessment, that even the mismanaged campaign information coming up, all the polls, the horror of her opponent, her policies, the assuredness of her victory...that all somehow lead to a minor democratic turnout? It's such a surreal situation. And many people are saying it was because she wasn't the right candidate. And I don't want to come off as a hillary fanboy, because I am aware of her flaws. Could another candiate have come through? Bernie, maybe, but who can tell? With how the media skewed stories and how polls were untruthful to the reality of the situation, there's no real measurement tool we can use to reliably predict anything. All I know is that once you account for the information available, I don't know what more Hillary could have done.
First, I think Clinton ran an incredibly honest and integrity driven campaign. There were some questionable spots, and that deplorable gaffe hurt her, but all in all, it's hard for me to find fault with Hillary's conduct in terms of just being a genuinely honest politician trying to make a positive change.
This was not communicated clearly, and I place 90% of the blame squarely on the media for this. Lets get one thing straight here, this was not an election driven by policies. The scandals of Clinton, however hollow and meaningless they were, dominated the news. It didn't matter that Trump's scandals were covered just as much, the fact that her fucking emails kept getting brought up over and over and over and over, it created this sense that both politicians were equally corrupt. I mean, why would the news keep talking about the corrupt things they did if they weren't?
The only way I can see to have countered this was some kind of strong talking point that Clinton had. But honestly, the publicity she had wasn't nearly as marketable as Trump's. "Stronger Together" is very bland and generic and "I'm with Her" is better, but doesn't stick in the mind nearly as much as "Make America Great Again". Granted, it might be because Clinton supporters had actual things of substance to talk about rather than a catchphrase, while every discussion with Trump supporters has them walking the statement into "We're just doing this because we want to Make America Great Again". Obama used a similar rhetorical technique, by making "Yes We Can" the de-facto response to questions. "Can we fix racial inequality?" "Yes we can!" Bernie managed to get one in the primaries. "Feel the Bern" Public relations has always been Hillary's weakest suit, and even as a supporter, I never thought either of her slogans were particularly good.
In terms of policies, Hillary is goddamn unbeatable. She had so many, was so prepared, and manhandled Trump in the debates to an almost embarassing degree. But this race was just never about policies. And I always knew that policies took a backseat to public performance, but the degree to which no one cared that she was going to eliminate student debt was almost bizarre. I heard about that, I almost crapped myself. All my student loans forgiven? That wasn't the thing I was looking most forward to, but it would have benefitted me most directly and I think that's something most young adults face. You tell any newly graduated person you're willing to forgive their student debt, they should kiss you right on the spot, with tongue, whoever you are. But with Hillary, she announced on the DLC and people were like "Meh, that's cool." I was willing to let it go since people were high on hopium, but there is probably something seriously wrong when it's not the other side not talking about the amazing thing your doing, but your own. Like, that should have been the moment that Hillary became the chosen one for the entire mellenial generation. But it was just drowned out somehow...
Speaking of Hopium, I hate to say that pride before the fall shit, but I think it legitimately happened. I mean, we had reason to believe, all the polls were in our favor. That's why Hillary not stepping into Michigan may seem like a idiot error, just look at this. She's consistently leading by a high amount. Trying to win big and go after harder to flip states made some tactical sense. I mean, why waste energy on a state that you almost certainly won when you can get more states, potentially ensuring more electoral votes? I mean, the name of the game is the election, so if you have Michigan in the bag, why not go after something else? I feel this this was the case with Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, even Florida. When you look at these polls on basically any day other than election day, can what prediction would you make based on who'd they go to?
Plus, this is probably the biggest election of all time. The debates were the most watched debates of any presidential election. Everyone saw these debates. Everyone was on every story that was made on it. You'd think this would produce the highest turnout of all time?
Not to mention the minorities. Surely black people wouldn't vote for Trump? They didn't, but more of them voted for Trump than Romney. Same with Hispanics. And Asians. And somehow...SOMEHOW....more than 53% of white women and 43% of women overall voted for Trump. These are all demographics Hillary should have had in the bag, and I'm still baffled that she didn't.
I also think slogans were a big part of it. Had she something flashy like Obama's enduring "Yes We Can", maybe she could have fought back against the media's focus on scandals. But she fought back with policies. Those should be better, if not just as good, but that's not how it works in showmanship. You can argue that she wasn't the right candidate for that alone, but that rubs me the wrong way. At some point, you put the blame on the voters. There's no one that can actually 'make' voters get up and vote, except the voters themselves. And whether they were voting for hillary or against trump, they were given AMPLE reason to do so.
So I feel this is more on voters than on her. Call me a hillary defender or whatever, but when I look at the polls she had available to her at the time, I think she came to the reasonable conclusion that she was gonna win those states. Even Republicans thought she was gonna win those states. And when I see that she's trying everything within her power to do everything right, I can't help but think that's someone I'd be proud to have representing me. Someone who works so hard to do so much good. No, she's not perfect, and she certainly doesn't have the raw charisma or way with words or slogan of Obama, but she still had so much good behind her.
But ultimately, voters have to show up, and they can vote or not vote for whoever and whatever reason they want. I like to think that they were just drunk on Hopium, that many stayed home thinking "Look at those polls! There's no way Trump takes my state. I'm just gonna sit this one out". I still want to punch these people in the face, but those voters are still well intentioned, you know? They just made a really big statistical critical error.
It's the voters that never got past her shrill voice that get me. The voters who listened to her email scandals being covered over and over without doing research to find out how meaningless they were. Voters who thought her getting pneumonia was a sign of weakness, or "Just can't start to like her". I hope they are a minority in this.
I don't know. This is my assessment, that even the mismanaged campaign information coming up, all the polls, the horror of her opponent, her policies, the assuredness of her victory...that all somehow lead to a minor democratic turnout? It's such a surreal situation. And many people are saying it was because she wasn't the right candidate. And I don't want to come off as a hillary fanboy, because I am aware of her flaws. Could another candiate have come through? Bernie, maybe, but who can tell? With how the media skewed stories and how polls were untruthful to the reality of the situation, there's no real measurement tool we can use to reliably predict anything. All I know is that once you account for the information available, I don't know what more Hillary could have done.
Poodlestrike
Banned
This is true too.
Basically, here's the deal: yes, as a private company, Facebook has every right to filter or not filter any content they choose. Ditto Twitter.
What people are asking for is that they display the slightest bit of morality in this and filter out hateful fake news propaganda bullshit. The line between "real" and "not real" is a simple one, despite attempts to make it otherwise.
VendettaRed07
Member
He will be in 2018.
I can't believe we are still hating on him. He wasn't right about his approach with everything and he went to far in some cases but my god. You'd think after the gaf bubble burst in the worst and most devastating way we'd get an ounce of self reflection.
They either don't want to really think about that and how much power Russia seems to hold over us now or they think you are crazy.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
If his supporters would not come out to vote for at least Teachout or Feingold, what makes you think they will moving forward for anything else?
It also fundamentally destroys nearly all protections granted by the first amendment.
Vestal
Junior Member
Sorry I wish I had recorded it. The way she framed it was absolutely insane.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
I don't have a problem with Bernie, I have a problem with people who tell me I need to admit the faults of Hillary as a candidate while refusing to do the same for him.
Then again, he whined his way through the primary and general, and people ate it up.
Poodlestrike
Banned
As to the first: sauce, plz
As to the second, we have plenty of self reflection. What I'm reflecting on is that D turnout dropped the hardest in states Bernie either performed strongly in or outright overperformed, barring the Northeast. I find that interesting. In the south, we got beat out by shockingly high Republican turnout. But in the Rust Belt, we collapsed. How much of that was because Bernie legitimized the Republican attacks in the eyes of Democratic voters? We lost by 30k votes in MI. I'm not saying that Bernie lost us the election, but for crying out loud, THAT'S NOT A LOT OF VOTES.
CrimzonSamurai
Member
I don't hate Bernie or anything but he needs to make amends for raising no down-ticket money and starting the "rigged" accusation. There is no way his primary run had no negative impact on Dem turnout. The only thing I'm hating on is Bernie supporters claiming that he "obviously would have won" when almost every major indicator says he wouldn't.
metalslimer
Member
I'm not anti Bernie. I object to the idea that he is now the leader of democratic party.
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