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PoliGAF 2016 |OT16| Unpresidented

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The recounts are a waste of time and money. She lost, move on.

Anyway, this HBR article was kind of interesting, although some parts of it, I'd disagree. In particular the observations about the mentality of "white working class" are quite different from general assumption. This was touched on in some posts I saw earlier, from people's thanksgiving discussions.

Good article. Too bad that much of Trump's policies doesn't even help them out in the slightest like his tax cuts or even building the wall. I think things like the factory jobs is something they want, on-hands type of stuff. Right now to get any good many you'll need college degree's and the prospects of high paying jobs that doesn't require college degrees coming back is very unlikely. The white working class seemed to have failed to adapt to modern times, and are hoping for a miracle of getting those good paying jobs back.
 

faisal233

Member
This was a great podcast. Heather McGhee was spot on with a lot of her points. Particularly her final one. Democrats can not be so willing to cut a deal with Donald Trump over a shit infrastructure bill when Trump has called into question the very humanity of so many Americans. The core constituency of the Democratic party. To be so willing to work with that man is a form of acknowledgement that minorities in this country are second class citizens. Really helped articulate for me why even the thought of Democrats working with Republicans on bills that may (MAY) have some tangential benefit for minorities and the lower class still left such a disgusting taste in my mouth.
Agree completely. I hope this is just a public stance.
 
Republicans' reactions going on full hardliner towards Castro's death have been short sided.

Castro's death was ineveitable, the US had ample time on devising a diplomatic strategy on moving forward to the future.

Rubio and Co's reaction have been diplomaticly dumb.

Raul said he will being stepping down in 2019.

If the Trump admin starts acting like a bunch of billionaire colonialists, I see Cuba continue to distrust the US and lean towards the EU and Russia instead.

a huge diplomatic missed opportunity on the part of the Right.

yeah Castro is dead. Okay, but the Future is tomorrow, what have you planned for the future? Dumb ass Republicans
 

Kid Heart

Member

I guess instead of admitting that the nation is about to take a giant step backward, the NYT would rather put it's head in the sand, claiming everything is fine and this is normal now. Awesome.

But, hey! If people can rationalize Castro as merely a flawed human being instead of the evil tyrant he turned out to be, the NYT should have no problems being able to do so with Trump!

This will be a very long four years...
 

Wilsongt

Member
So our media is going to normalize white nationalism, facism, and neo-nazis over the next four years to sort of hold that "fair and balanced" nonsense?
 
If you subscribe to NYT please write them to express your concern and that you are a subscriber.

If you cancel let them know why.

If you aren't a subscriber write them and tell them that this policy is keeping you from subscribing. Maybe mention the WaPo.
 

MIMIC

Banned

So because the NY Times isn't going to go full echo chamber and call every Trump supporter a racist/Islamophobe/etc, they're going soft on fascism? What a garbage, click baity article.

The article opens up blaming the NY Times for not cheer leading Hillary "the chosen one" Clinton (daring to report on her email scandal which led to an investigation by the FBI), and never lets up.

It's everyone's fault, but Hillary's, apparently.
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Note about that WaPo article...a ton of papers passed on it, for legitimate reasons. Ignore Greenwald's way overdramatic verbiage - but pretty important points to remember about that WaPo article.

https://theintercept.com/2016/11/26...klist-from-a-new-hidden-and-very-shady-group/

This Post report was one of the most widely circulated political news articles on social media over the last 48 hours, with dozens, perhaps hundreds, of U.S. journalists and pundits with large platforms hailing it as an earth-shattering exposé. It was the most-read piece on the entire Post website after it was published on Friday.

Yet the article is rife with obviously reckless and unproven allegations, and fundamentally shaped by shoddy, slothful journalistic tactics. It was not surprising to learn that, as BuzzFeed’s Sheera Frenkel noted, “a lot of reporters passed on this story.”

The credentials of this supposed group of experts are impossible to verify, as none is provided either by the Post or by the group itself. The Intercept contacted PropOrNot and asked numerous questions about about its team, but received only this reply: “We’re getting a lot of requests for comment and can get back to you today =) [smiley face emoticon].” The group added: “We’re over 30 people, organized into teams, and we cannot confirm or deny anyone’s involvement.”

Thus far, they have provided no additional information beyond that. As Fortune’s Matthew Ingram wrote in criticizing the Post article, PropOrNot’s Twitter account “has only existed since August of this year. And an article announcing the launch of the group on its website is dated last month.” WHOIS information for the domain name is not available, as the website uses private registration.

More troubling still, PropOrNot listed numerous organizations on its website as “allied” with it, yet many of these claimed “allies” told The Intercept, and complained on social media, they have nothing to do with the group and had never even heard of it before the Post published its story.

TO HYPE ITS OWN STORY, the Post article uncritically highlights PropOrNot’s flamboyant claim that stories planted or promoted by Russia’s “disinformation campaign” were viewed more than 213 million times. Yet no methodology is provided for any of this: how a website is determined to merit blacklist designation or how this reach was calculated. As Ingram wrote: “How is that audience measured? We don’t know. Stories promoted by this network were shared 213 million times, it says. How do we know this? That’s unclear.”

Presumably, this massive number was created by including on its lists highly popular sites such as WikiLeaks, as well The Drudge Report, the third-most popular political news website on the internet. Yet this frightening, Cold War-esque “213 million” number for Russian “planted” news story views was uncritically echoed by numerous high-profile media figures, such as New York Times deputy Washington editor Jonathan Weisman and professor Jared Yates Sexton — although the number is misleading at best.

Some of the websites on PropOrNot’s blacklist do indeed publish Russian propaganda — namely Sputnik News and Russia Today, which are funded by the Russian government. But many of the aforementioned blacklisted sites are independent, completely legitimate news sources which often receive funding through donations or foundations and which have been reporting and analyzing news for many years....

One of the most egregious examples is the group’s inclusion of Naked Capitalism, the widely respected left-wing site run by Wall Street critic Yves Smith. That site was named by Time Magazine as one of the best 25 Best Financial Blogs in 2011 and by Wired Magazine as a crucial site to follow for finance, and Smith has been featured as a guest on programs such as PBS’ Bill Moyers Show. Yet this cowardly group of anonymous smear artists, promoted by the Washington Post, has now placed them on a blacklist of Russian disinformation.

The group eschews alternative media outlets like these and instead recommends that readers rely solely on establishment-friendly publications like NPR, the BBC, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, Buzzfeed and VICE. That is because a big part of the group’s definition for “Russian propaganda outlet” is criticizing U.S. foreign policy.

Two of the most discredited reports from the election season illustrate the point: a Slate article claiming that a private server had been located linking the Trump Organization and a Russian bank (which, like the current Post story, had been shopped around and rejected by multiple media outlets), and a completely deranged rant by Newsweek’s Kurt Eichenwald claiming that Putin had ordered emails in the WikiLeaks release to be doctored – both of which were uncritically shared and tweeted by hundreds of journalists to tens of thousands of people, if not more.

The Post itself – now posing as warriors against “fake news” – published an article in September that treated with great seriousness the claim that Hillary Clinton collapsed on 9/11 Day because she was poisoned by Putin. And that’s to say nothing of the paper’s disgraceful history of convincing Americans that Saddam was building non-existent nuclear weapons and had cultivated a vibrant alliance with Al Qaeda.

However, several fake news site runners and Trump happened to "coincidentally" be linked to each other: https://theintercept.com/2016/11/26/laura-ingraham-lifezette/
 

Pixieking

Banned
God dammit, New York Times. This Alt right stuff needs to be put back into its place. So disappointed in them.

My letter to the Public Editor: People should write to let them know, so maybe others can take from my letter and spin out in a different way.

Madam,

With regards to the article of yours, dated November 19th, titled "One Thing Voters Agree On: Better Campaign Coverage Was Needed", I fear that the wrong lesson will be learned by the New York Times.

You write "They voted for Donald Trump and don’t consider themselves homophobic, racist or anti-Muslim."

Very few people think of themselves as any of these things. Few think of themselves as hating other people in any form, let alone for such things as sexual orientation, skin color or religion. But this does not necessarily mean that they aren't, either covertly or overtly through every day actions, contemptuous of others or malicious through action or inaction. Being British, I have seen the rise of anti-foreign sentiment since Brexit cloaked as "patriotism", whilst those of a different color or religion cower in fear of are made to feel inferior. This has absolutely been the alt-right/fascist right in collusion with the mainstream press's demonisation of "the other".


The role of a newspaper is to educate and inform, as well as to speak for those without a voice. But the point at which that becomes problematic (note: not impossible) is the point at which you ask your readers to "understand" people who voted for a racist, bigoted, sexually assaulting, uneducated rabblerouser as President of the United States, and to not blame them. At no point should a publication of the New York Times stature apologize, minimize or normalize what has occurred with such a dramatic turnout for people who are at best indifferent to minorities and women's right's. Over sixty million people voted for someone who admitted to groping a woman without consent (and more). These voters should not be "understood", they should be shamed and made to feel the gut-wrenching horror of the minorities whose lives will be made many-times worse by their decision. That said, their reasons for voting for Trump as well as their situations undeniably ought to be understood.


The final paragraph of your article includes this line: “I hope you guys will give people like us a chance too. It’s time to lay down our arms.”


The New York Times needs to seriously consider what giving "people like us a chance" will do, not just to the paper's reputation, but to the wider fabric of society. We are living now in a world where two major Western powers - the United States and the United Kingdom - are willingly giving credence to hatred, and justifying the views of racists and bigots under the guise of making America Great (US) and Parliamentary power (UK). I beg the New York Times to not "lay down arms", but fight against the normalisation of views that are abhorrent and backward. Otherwise The New York Times will, at some point in the future, have this to look forward to:


Did Neo-Nazi murder Jo over fear he'd lose council house he grew up in? Terrorist thought property could end up being occupied by an immigrant family - and the MP wouldn't help him. [This was a link to a legit Daily Mail story, but the DM isn't allowed here, so...]


Yours, with respect
 

kirblar

Member
Greenwald is filled with such self-loathing for the US and the West that he willingly turns himself into a puppet for others.

Sadly, he's far from the only one on the left to do this.
 

RDreamer

Member
"They voted for Donald Trump and don’t consider themselves homophobic, racist or anti-Muslim."

This is such a shit line and way of thinking. Of fucking course they don't consider themselves that. I know people who spout of radical slurs and they don't consider themselves racist. They are, though.
 

FyreWulff

Member
Ain't give no fucks

t1611162000z1.png
 

daedalius

Member
I’m a Coastal Elite From the Midwest: The Real Bubble is Rural America

This is what's happening. It's a bubble of white people w/ similar culture/religion/etc. If there are black people in their city/town, they live on the other (poor) side of town.

I use the puppy analogy here- these people are never exposed to anything outside their local norm, so they react w/ fear to anything different.

And the US is GIGANTIC. This cannot be stressed enough.

I feel like this is a really good piece.

I'm in the burbs of Kansas City, and I live in a pretty diverse area (I couldn't believe how diverse the crowd was when I was out on thanksgiving night shopping actually), but I grew up a bit further out and my high school graduating class had 2 African Americans and 1 Asian, everyone else was white, so I can definitely see where this piece is coming from. Conservatism runs deep in the people I went to high school with.

Trump ALMOST lost the district i live in... but he won overwhelmingly everywhere around me.
 

dramatis

Member
There's also the issue of how Dems get more popular votes overall nationally, but somehow Congress is never representative of that either

Democracy
 

mo60

Member
You should probably change that to 2025.

Depends on what happens since a few red states that were less red in this election like GA, TX and AZ and maybe UT may turn even less red in the next election while PA,MI and WI swing back a bit towards the democrats. The democrats may also be more competitive in NC and FL in the next election.
 

faisal233

Member
So I just got spam from Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee telling me they need signatures from Louisiana on some bullshit petition to hold Trump accountable.

We are having our runoff senate elections in Louisiana and early voting started today. Love the DCCC's priorities.
 
So I just got spam from Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee telling me they need signatures from Louisiana on some bullshit petition to hold Trump accountable.

We are having our runoff senate elections in Louisiana and early voting started today. Love the DCCC's priorities.
We're gonna lose the race. there's not much of a point.
 

CygnusXS

will gain confidence one day
There's also the issue of how Dems get more popular votes overall nationally, but somehow Congress is never representative of that either

Democracy

It's like Democratic voters are being counted for 3/5ths that of Republican voters. How weird.
 
Tell me how prioritizing a petition is a better use of time and resources. Signing a petition will not do shit, they could have atleast mentioned the election.

It's not the DCCC's territory, anyway. And that petition email probably took all of ten minutes to make.

But the money would be better spent for races in 2017 and 2018 where there is actually opportunity.
 
So I just got spam from Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee telling me they need signatures from Louisiana on some bullshit petition to hold Trump accountable.

We are having our runoff senate elections in Louisiana and early voting started today. Love the DCCC's priorities.
DSCC handles that, DCCC is House only.
 
So because the NY Times isn't going to go full echo chamber and call every Trump supporter a racist/Islamophobe/etc, they're going soft on fascism? What a garbage, click baity article.

The article opens up blaming the NY Times for not cheer leading Hillary "the chosen one" Clinton (daring to report on her email scandal which led to an investigation by the FBI), and never lets up.

It's everyone's fault, but Hillary's, apparently.

Bless your heart.
 

CygnusXS

will gain confidence one day
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/muslims-736639-letter-incidents.html
Local Islamic leaders are asking for increased police protection after at least three California mosques received a letter that threatens Muslims and praises President-Elect Donald Trump.

Over the past several days, Islamic centers in Long Beach, Claremont and San Jose all received the same photocopy of a handwritten letter addressed to “the Children of Satan.” The letter calls Muslims “vile,” “filthy” and “evil.” It then states that Trump – who, during his campaign, proposed making Muslims register and blocking people of faith from entering the country – is going to “cleanse America.”

“He’s going to do to you Muslims what Hitler did to the Jews,” the letter reads. “You Muslims would be wise to pack your bags and get out of Dodge.”

The letter is signed “Americans for a Better Way.”

It’s the latest in a series of incidents targeting Muslims and other minority groups since the Nov. 8 election.
 
FWIW I think the author of the HBR article, Joan C Williams is a West coast liberal feminist lawyer and scholar. So I don't think she's endorsing "manly dignity" just saying it is what it is.

I think the police bit was dumb.
 
Double post but whatever
Good article. Too bad that much of Trump's policies doesn't even help them out in the slightest like his tax cuts or even building the wall. I think things like the factory jobs is something they want, on-hands type of stuff. Right now to get any good many you'll need college degree's and the prospects of high paying jobs that doesn't require college degrees coming back is very unlikely. The white working class seemed to have failed to adapt to modern times, and are hoping for a miracle of getting those good paying jobs back.
They think the wall does help though. "Less illegals taking our jobs."

I think this is part of what the article gets wrong too in saying offer training. I think it is the solution, but it's one they don't want by and large.

They don't want to retrain. They don't want to be the college educated professional they resent and distrust.

They want their old manly! jobs back, they want them to pay the equivalent of what they used to in current terms so they can live in equivalent comfort, they want to be in charge of things from a social standpoint.

None of this is happening.
But Trump offers them the lie.
 

i_am_ben

running_here_and_there
So when is the NAFTA renegotiation going to occur?

Also, the renegotiation will undoubtedly benefit the USA but I wonder if it can ever be renegotiated to the extent his supporters want.
 

teiresias

Member
Double post but whatever They think the wall does help though. "Less illegals taking our jobs."

I think this is part of what the article gets wrong too in saying offer training. I think it is the solution, but it's one they don't want by and large.

They don't want to retrain. They don't want to be the college educated professional they resent and distrust.

They want their old manly! jobs back, they want them to pay the equivalent of what they used to in current terms so they can live in equivalent comfort, they want to be in charge of things from a social standpoint.

None of this is happening.
But Trump offers them the lie.

I've said this same thing earlier in the thread. There's all this talk about listening to the WWC and addressing their problems, but they don't want to hear or put in the work for the real solution to their problem - they just want that factory or mine reopened that closed decades ago and to walk back into jobs with the same skill set, but with inflation and cost of living adjusted pay.
 

Blader

Member
I don't understand the alt-right's obsession with Putin/Russia. Am I right in reading them as betas who subconsciously resent their own beta-ness and see Putin as the alpha they should aspire to be? Otherwise I don't get it; Russia doesn't seem like a particularly pleasant place to live.

Double post but whatever They think the wall does help though. "Less illegals taking our jobs."

I think this is part of what the article gets wrong too in saying offer training. I think it is the solution, but it's one they don't want by and large.

They don't want to retrain. They don't want to be the college educated professional they resent and distrust.

They want their old manly! jobs back, they want them to pay the equivalent of what they used to in current terms so they can live in equivalent comfort, they want to be in charge of things from a social standpoint.


None of this is happening.
But Trump offers them the lie.
Another reason why I resent this "special snowflakes" shit levied at millennials and liberals. If there's anyone in this country acting like special snowflakes, its the ones who believed they were entitled to have the same jobs, in the same way, as they always have when the world moved in a different direction and they refused to move with it, either through their votes or personal inaction. I'd be more sympathetic if these people were socialists or something, but shit, if you're a coal miner or assembly line worker who is an ardent supporter of limited government and free market capitalism, well, this is what you signed up for.
 

kirblar

Member
I've said this same thing earlier in the thread. There's all this talk about listening to the WWC and addressing their problems, but they don't want to hear or put in the work for the real solution to their problem - they just want that factory or mine reopened that closed decades ago and to walk back into jobs with the same skill set, but with inflation and cost of living adjusted pay.
I think it's why you have to hit the Heroin part hard. You can at least offer concrete solutions there.
 

kirblar

Member
Law and Order, put them in prison. If it was black folks dealing and taking heroin that's what they'd want done.
Correct. That's why you leverage this in order to sneak in all those other reforms that help non-white people out even more.

I don't think you're getting through to that hypothetical straight and narrow voter anyway.
 

teiresias

Member
Correct. That's why you leverage this in order to sneak in all those other reforms that help non-white people out even more.

And pass up the opportunity to turn a bunch of the WWC into felons that won't get their voting rights back thanks thanks to GOP legislatures? I think not. Fight fire with fire.
 
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