BotoxAgent
Member
yea i agree. No Tim Kaine. He's well liked in his state. But he doesn't have much charisma and it's hard to run someone who just came from a losing team
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PoliGAF 2016 |OT16| Unpresidented
- Thread starter ItWasMeantToBe19
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We don't have an reliable account of his health do we?
He has said before that he basically only eats fast food and barely sleeps.
I think there is a genuine non-zero chance he has a stroke or a heart attack from all the stress he's going to have in the next four years.
neurosisxeno
Member
Out of curiosity for people knowledgeable in such things, what will happen if the court case for Trump later this month does happen and ends badly for Trump? It feels like too much to hope for that anything will change, I'm just trying to figure it out.
Logically he would be impeached if the verdict comes after he is sworn in. If it comes before...nothing?
I am having a hard time listening to, respecting, or buying into anyone who says the following
BERNIE WOULD HAVE WON RIGGED SYSTEM!
DNC needs to be blown up!
THE ESTABLISHMENT IS EVIL THAT's why Trump won!
The voters were sick and angry with the establishment!
I mean give me a break. We all knew, with proof, logic, and evidence, that more than half the BS about Hillary was a myth perpetuated by the far right and unfortunately even the far left.
Yet now in the aftermath and in the rush to blame someone all logic is being thrown out the window. We all knew she wasn't as inspiring and exciting as Obama but we all thought logical sane progressives would come around to her because she did win the primaries faily and because she is actually pretty progressive on issues which matter to us the most.
That people decided not to vote, knowing full well that would help Trump, really truly hurts me as a minority trying to find a place myself and my family in this country. And whether you call it lesser of two evils or not, she was the only logical sane choice and thanks to the apathetic voter, we not only flushed her chances but all he positives Obama put into place.
It's just sickening and it doesn't help that Bernie bros who never bothered to vote for him are now trying to say "told you so" or that people are trying to explain away the racist xenophobic Republican voters by saying they simply wanted an outsider anti-establishment candidate.
BERNIE WOULD HAVE WON RIGGED SYSTEM!
DNC needs to be blown up!
THE ESTABLISHMENT IS EVIL THAT's why Trump won!
The voters were sick and angry with the establishment!
I mean give me a break. We all knew, with proof, logic, and evidence, that more than half the BS about Hillary was a myth perpetuated by the far right and unfortunately even the far left.
Yet now in the aftermath and in the rush to blame someone all logic is being thrown out the window. We all knew she wasn't as inspiring and exciting as Obama but we all thought logical sane progressives would come around to her because she did win the primaries faily and because she is actually pretty progressive on issues which matter to us the most.
That people decided not to vote, knowing full well that would help Trump, really truly hurts me as a minority trying to find a place myself and my family in this country. And whether you call it lesser of two evils or not, she was the only logical sane choice and thanks to the apathetic voter, we not only flushed her chances but all he positives Obama put into place.
It's just sickening and it doesn't help that Bernie bros who never bothered to vote for him are now trying to say "told you so" or that people are trying to explain away the racist xenophobic Republican voters by saying they simply wanted an outsider anti-establishment candidate.
Out of curiosity for people knowledgeable in such things, what will happen if the court case for Trump later this month does happen and ends badly for Trump? It feels like too much to hope for that anything will change, I'm just trying to figure it out.
I mean, let's say Trump gets arrested or impeached or whatever. Then you have Mike fucking Pence at the top of the ticket, who's out of his mind. At least we won't have to worry about impulsive nuclear war
Logically he would be impeached if the verdict comes after he is sworn in. If it comes before...nothing?
Well, consider me depressed. I want him to lose the case, but the prospect of President Pence is too much to bear.
It's just a lawsuit and not a criminal trial. If the judge rules against him, he's liable to be ordered to pay damages, I suppose.Out of curiosity for people knowledgeable in such things, what will happen if the court case for Trump later this month does happen and ends badly for Trump? It feels like too much to hope for that anything will change, I'm just trying to figure it out.
RastaMentality
Banned
Canada is really the only option.What, the country that doesn't have gay marriage at all?
Come on, PoliGAF. This "I will move to X" when "X" is barely better and in some cases worse than America is embarrassing.
It wouldn't be shocking at all if Kennedy and Roberts are horrified by Trump's destruction of democratic norms. That may shape their jurisprudence moving forward. A thin reed but it is possible.
Interesting point. Seeing all three branches red may make them hedge a lot of rulings. Leave the door open for things so that they can be revisited in the future. Just because they have to rule, doesn't mean their ruling has to be future-proof.
This makes me very hopeful, actually.
Heck, there was a sizable chunk of voters who were fans of Sanders and Trump, even though there is basically nothing these two have in common except for the "outsider" narrative.
I would argue that chasing this demographic is the definition of foolish. If "outsider" is the requirement, then they're clueless about politics, clueless about the path legislation takes to get passed, and clueless about other people's concerns.
It's just a lawsuit and not a criminal trial. If the judge rules against him, he's liable to be ordered to pay damages, I suppose.
I thought it was a fraud case and fraud is considered criminal?
Logically he would be impeached if the verdict comes after he is sworn in. If it comes before...nothing?
He's not getting impeached regardless of any verdict in this case.
IggyChooChoo
Member
The idea that voters reward politicians who help them is not born out here in Kentucky. All our democratic politicians run on here is New Deal economic stuff, and we get smashed by the parts of the state that rely on the New Deal/great society programs the most. I think the GOP is simply much better at empathizing and identifying with WWC pain, and assigning blame to scapegoat liberals, minorities, and inmmigrants. So my concern is that the worse the WWC hurts, the more they'll vote GOP, so accelerationism will help them, not us. I guess we can try blaming the 1%. Good luck.Ironic considering Dems are actually great at creating jobs.
I hope you watched the rest of the video, because it will make you feel better.
This was probably the best segment I've seen on any show, for quite some time.
Michael Moore pointing out the liberal bubble summed it up. I'm just as guilty for laughing that campaign off without seeing what was coming. Living in a red state numbed me to what was happening. I'm used to it but thought the rest of America would reject what was coming. I hope he's right about a resistance rising up and Trump not serving a full term.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Surely your response to this hinges on whether or not you think it will help them win the game, no?
Liberals immediately falling back on talking like that after having branded themselves "stronger together"...
My life, my daughter's life, and the lives of GLBT people are not chips in a game.
... is not a good look to the people they're supposed to be fighting for. And that they need. It strengthens the hot take minorities came away with that: we're finally confirmed fucked, and straight white people don't give a shit about us one way or the other ultimately, except when we can be useful.
Again, I dont want to get into any of the other items discussed in your statement as a whole, except to zoom in on the "team" and "game" phrase because, unfortunately, that is what it is and one team and its supporters has recognized that whereas the other side hasnt.
EDIT: Perhaps I posted too soon without reading all the comments re:game. I thought it was a sports analogy as I mentioned above, not a political game of manipulation etc. I apologize but I also dont want to delete my comment as that might be looked upon poorly.
No problem.
It is a game. Trump just won.
You don't get moral victories here. We need candidates who are going to enact change, and if that means shifting focus to attain victory then so be it.
Johnson had to tip-toe around landmines to pass the Civil Rights Act. But he did it. You need people in office who even believe such a movement in order to enact any change, even if it's not publicly the focus of their campaign.
They need to focus on jobs again. It's always about jobs.
Just get someone male white to promise the midwest he'll bring manufacturing jobs back. Don't give any specifics (you can't the jobs are never coming back), just keep saying it over and over and over.
There's no 'understanding' the poor disenfranchised working class in areas where manufacturing has been gutted, what they want won't ever happen. You can't turn back the clock. If the manufacturers come back they'll automate so much that a 20th of the workforce will be needed. No amount of ending trade deals, introducing tariffs and subsidies will ever change that. All ending trade deals will do is push up the cost of living which will hurt those folks more.
All you can do is pander. Clinton did have reasonable policies on retraining and increasing college affordability which in theory is the correct response to the gutting of manufacturing, but they didn't want to know clinging to the notion that empty words of a moron would somehow magically bring it all back. It won't.
And_Gignac
Member
Dean has won elections, and helped Democrats win the House.
What has Keith Ellison done other than make predictions, which is what a lot of other pundits have done? Michael Moore also saw the rise of Trump, but we're not handing the DNC chair to him.
Surely, you can provide better qualifications for Ellison than that.
Dean is an extension and a continuation of the same Dem elite the electorate (and even the dem base!) furiously rejected. No one cares about credentials, as Hillary "most qualified ever" Clinton shows.
Dean as the head of the DNC would be an image disaster to any attempt at re branding the party. Why are Clintonians being so stubborn about it?
Hillary is a liberal, regardless of your personal feelings about her.Yeah fuck this. This is the same old "by the book" - "how to get elected" bullshit that obviously DOESNT WORK ANYMORE.
A VP people care about because he appeals to the democratic base would have maybe saved her some of the rust belt states.
And Hillary is NOT liberal. Just because democrats let the republicans pull them to the right all the time does not mean the public shifts in the same way.
Heck, there was a sizable chunk of voters who were fans of Sanders and Trump, even though there is basically nothing these two have in common except for the "outsider" narrative.
People want politicians who fight for them, no matter if left or right leaning.
If this election taught us anything its that centrists appeal to nobody and not to everybody like the establishment thought.
The strategy you are proposing is on full display in the UK. It has, essentially, destroyed the Labour party as any sort of viable opposition to the party in power. I am unwilling to let that happen to the Democratic party that you so revile, because the rights and livelihoods of millions of people depend on it as an organization.
So no amount of "fuck this" from you is actually going to prove that the ideas you propose are going to win elections in 2018 or 2020. Because in the end, those ideas didn't win a national election (the primaries) either.
I'm not being stubborn. I'm open to accepting Ellison.Dean is an extension and a continuation of the same Dem elite the electorate (and even the dem base!) furiously rejected. No one cares about credentials, as Hillary "most qualified ever" Clinton shows.
Dean as the head of the DNC would be an image disaster to any attempt at re branding the party. Why are Clintonians being so stubborn about it?
What I dislike is the idea that him predicting Trump is any sort of decent proof of how good of a DNC chair he will be.
After double-checking, looks like Cohen v. Trump is a civil class-action lawsuit, so not a criminal trial.I thought it was a fraud case and fraud is considered criminal?
Sirpopopop
Member
I still can't believe Adam left.
Why would he stick around?
This was a rather personal blow to him. I don't think he's going to get involved in politics again.
Now, we got Bernie folks in the OT trying to berniesplain away rural racism. We got guys like Michael Moore ascendant again, peddling the, "We need to reach out to racists or racist apologist" crap. People are buying into Michael Moore because he got lucky in his prediction.
After the Trump election, I don't think you will get minorities like me to sit down and work on a political level with racists. We don't trust them. We know for a fact they will ditch us at the first opportunity. We would rather not participate than work with them.
I'm sorry, it's an "us or them" for me.
Well, Obama passed ostensibly an old Republican health care plan with bits of goodness mixed in (and almost sold out Social Security to do so: http://econospeak.blogspot.com/2009/01/how-bruce-webb-and-i-helped-save-social.html), installed Geithner as the Treasury Secretary, and bailed out the banks with his political capital. He framed the national budget as deficit politics and kept up the framing that the Republicans used to succeed later in his presidency. Despite riding in on a wave of the anti-war dem vote, he continued and enhanced the drone program, kept the Patriot Act's spying on its own citizens.
In many respects, Obama was great. As I've said before, he pretty much avoided the next Depression--but the seeds he sewed all seem to be pointing to Trump right now, and we shouldn't act as if he was simply let down by everyone around him.
I disagree with those points, but in the end let's not pretend that any of those criticisms was what got Trump elected.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Out of curiosity for people knowledgeable in such things, what will happen if the court case for Trump later this month does happen and ends badly for Trump? It feels like too much to hope for that anything will change, I'm just trying to figure it out.
Curiel is pushing to settle, because he wants to avoid the spectacle.
Just get someone male white to promise the midwest he'll bring manufacturing jobs back. Don't give any specifics (you can't the jobs are never coming back), just keep saying it over and over and over.
There's no 'understanding' the poor disenfranchised working class in areas where manufacturing has been gutted, what they want won't ever happen. You can't turn back the clock. If the manufacturers come back they'll automate so much that a 20th of the workforce will be needed. No amount of ending trade deals, introducing tariffs and subsidies will ever change that. All ending trade deals will do is push up the cost of living which will hurt those folks more.
All you can do is pander. Clinton did have reasonable policies on retraining and increasing college affordability which in theory is the correct response to the gutting of manufacturing, but they didn't want to know clinging to the notion that empty words of a moron would somehow magically bring it all back. It won't.
I hope, if we've learned one thing this campaign cycle, is that policy positions are fucking meaningless. No one listens, no one cares.
RastaMentality
Banned
it's gonna be gross. the entire crowd will be miles and miles of white with speckles of color. i wont be able to watch.I wonder if his inauguration will be a shitshow. He might even get booed. Will there be violence? Imagine the injury to his pride and what that might set off. Imagine how he'd react to a "you lie!" moment at a SOTU.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Why would he stick around?
This was a rather personal blow to him. I don't think he's going to get involved in politics again.
Now, we got Bernie folks in the OT trying to berniesplain away rural racism. We got guys like Michael Moore ascendant again, peddling the, "We need to reach out to racists or racist apologist" crap. People are buying into Michael Moore because he got lucky in his prediction.
After the Trump election, I don't think you will get minorities like me to sit down and work on a political level with racists. We don't trust them. We know for a fact they will ditch us at the first opportunity. We would rather not participate than work with them.
I'm sorry, it's an "us or them" for me.
Stop the liberal bubble thinking that every single rural white is a racist. Enough of this. This is why you democrats lose elections. These are the exact same people that voted for Barack Obama and now changed to Donald Trump. You better reach out to these people or you're going to not have control of any government branch for decades. This group isn't getting smaller.
edible_candle
Member
Then eight years of Trump it is. The votes just aren't there in the electoral college without the white working class. Plus, we're ceding the vast majority of local and state governments to the far-right without their votes as well.Why would he stick around?
This was a rather personal blow to him. I don't think he's going to get involved in politics again.
Now, we got Bernie folks in the OT trying to berniesplain away rural racism. We got guys like Michael Moore ascendant again, peddling the, "We need to reach out to racists or racist apologist" crap. People are buying into Michael Moore because he got lucky in his prediction.
After the Trump election, I don't think you will get minorities like me to sit down and work on a political level with racists. We don't trust them. We know for a fact they will ditch us at the first opportunity. We would rather not participate than work with them.
I'm sorry, it's an "us or them" for me.
whyamihere
Banned
I think it's fair to say that Howard Dean is the right man for the wrong time, and new leadership is prudent. He's also a very good olive branch to the Bernie side that is necessary. We need them. They need us.
RastaMentality
Banned
Then he'll release his wrath in his second term just like bush and Republicans fuck the court for a generation? i'm good.I mean
Ideally he's just an awesome president
But
balladofwindfishes
Member
Then eight years of Trump it is. The votes just aren't there in the electoral college without the white working class. Plus, we're ceding the vast majority of local and state governments to the far-right without their votes as well.
The WWC voted for Obama. Who is a minority. You can appeal to them without losing focus on minorities.
It's this and the fact I'm seeing little to convince me that the mid-term apathy problem would be fixed after 2020 that's been really eating at me here. We have a man that ran against the establishment darling in a primary and succeeded and then won the GE, and guess what happened to all the loyalty and excitement once liberals were asked to back him up in Congress?
This points to me that people love to get riled up and join a movement but don't care enough to enact actual change.
Okay let's say rural white america is not racist, but are they really in such dire straits? I'm not convinced of it yet. All this talk about revitalizing their communities, maybe they don't really care.
ShironRedshift
Member
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1311390These are the exact same people that voted for Barack Obama and now changed to Donald Trump. You better reach out to these people or you're going to not have control of any government branch for decades. This group isn't getting smaller.
Just to realize, these are the people you're talking about "reaching out to" here. They know very well what they were doing. You cannot reach out to them and still have us minorities in your side. You must choose one, because these fucks won't let you care about us, and we won't let you abandon us if you want our votes. But it sounds like you've already quite made your decision and are more than happy to pander to these fucks while sticking your fingers in your eats and trying to pretend these aren't the people you're reaching out to over us. In which case, we have to go elsewhere to ensure our own safety. Good luck with that though. Nice to know where you stand even if you'll deny it and it's implications.
CyclopsRock
Member
Liberals immediately falling back on talking like that after having branded themselves "stronger together"...
... is not a good look to the people they're supposed to be fighting for. And that they need. It strengthens the hot take minorities came away with that: we're finally confirmed fucked, and straight white people don't give a shit about us one way or the other ultimately, except when we can be useful.
Being a "good look" isn't something you can afford to care about when you constantly lose, though. That's why I was asking if you think it would help or not. Clearly if you don't think that putting less of an emphasis on minority issues would actually help then no, of course there's no reason why you'd support doing it. But if you do think it would help but still see it as being worse than putting it on the back burner (when it comes to presentation) and winning then I don't understand how you arrange your priorities. Minorities aren't "confirmed fucked" if the Democrats take the white house by talking about manufacturing jobs in the rust belt.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Why would he stick around?
This was a rather personal blow to him. I don't think he's going to get involved in politics again.
Now, we got Bernie folks in the OT trying to berniesplain away rural racism. We got guys like Michael Moore ascendant again, peddling the, "We need to reach out to racists or racist apologist" crap. People are buying into Michael Moore because he got lucky in his prediction.
After the Trump election, I don't think you will get minorities like me to sit down and work on a political level with racists. We don't trust them. We know for a fact they will ditch us at the first opportunity. We would rather not participate than work with them.
I'm sorry, it's an "us or them" for me.
Like I said last night
Focusing on just minorities will guarantee that Democrats will continue losing elections. White people are the majority in the country. If you ignore the same people you decry as Rural Racists, then we will never win another election again. Just the minority vote is not enough.
gutter_trash
Banned
I think Dems need a reset and that Ellison may be the right man for the current times.
Dean would have been excellent for a more regular traditional era but that has passed.
You are now in a new era of fuckery and it is time to pass the baton to a new breed of Democrats.
Dean would have been excellent for a more regular traditional era but that has passed.
You are now in a new era of fuckery and it is time to pass the baton to a new breed of Democrats.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1311390
Just to realize, these are the people you're talking about "reaching out to" here. They know very well what they were doing. You cannot reach out to them and still have us minorities in your side. You must choose one, because these fucks won't let you care about us, and we won't let you abandon us if you want our votes. But it sounds like you've already quite made your decision and are more than happy to pander to these fucks while sticking your fingers in your eats and trying to pretend these aren't the people you're reaching out to over us. In which case, we have to go elsewhere to ensure our own safety. Good luck with that.
Again, making blanket statements about an entire swath of people is ignorance on exact same level republicans have. The exact same. I've worked with/lived with/went to school with/went to church with rural whites for over 3 decades in different states. These people you linked to in that post? The minority. A very loud, brazen, idiotic minority.
BotoxAgent
Member
I am having a hard time listening to, respecting, or buying into anyone who says the following
BERNIE WOULD HAVE WON RIGGED SYSTEM!
DNC needs to be blown up!
THE ESTABLISHMENT IS EVIL THAT's why Trump won!
The voters were sick and angry with the establishment!
I mean give me a break. We all knew, with proof, logic, and evidence, that more than half the BS about Hillary was a myth perpetuated by the far right and unfortunately even the far left.
Yet now in the aftermath and in the rush to blame someone all logic is being thrown out the window. We all knew she wasn't as inspiring and exciting as Obama but we all thought logical sane progressives would come around to her because she did win the primaries faily and because she is actually pretty progressive on issues which matter to us the most.
That people decided not to vote, knowing full well that would help Trump, really truly hurts me as a minority trying to find a place myself and my family in this country. And whether you call it lesser of two evils or not, she was the only logical sane choice and thanks to the apathetic voter, we not only flushed her chances but all he positives Obama put into place.
It's just sickening and it doesn't help that Bernie bros who never bothered to vote for him are now trying to say "told you so" or that people are trying to explain away the racist xenophobic Republican voters by saying they simply wanted an outsider anti-establishment candidate.
I agree with this. Clinton did a lot to hurt her own campaign and election chances. But ultimately this is on us.
edible_candle
Member
The WWC voted for Obama. Who is a minority. You can appeal to them without losing focus on minorities.
I never said otherwise.
These people aren't necessarily opposed to fighting for civil liberties or social justice, but it isn't their primary concern. The Civil Rights Act was enacted using their votes. Labor unions financially backed civil rights movements. But they will vote for their economic interests first.http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1311390
Just to realize, these are the people you're talking about "reaching out to" here. They know very well what they were doing. You cannot reach out to them and still have us minorities in your side. You must choose one, because these fucks won't let you care about us, and we won't let you abandon us if you want our votes. But it sounds like you've already quite made your decision and are more than happy to pander to these fucks while sticking your fingers in your eats and trying to pretend these aren't the people you're reaching out to over us. In which case, we have to go elsewhere to ensure our own safety. Good luck with that though. Nice to know where you stand even if you'll deny it and it's implications.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Hillary was the most liberal presidential candidate since Jimmy Carter. Maybe even more liberal than him. She was pushing the most progressive policies since LBJ.Yeah fuck this. This is the same old "by the book" - "how to get elected" bullshit that obviously DOESNT WORK ANYMORE.
A VP people care about because he appeals to the democratic base would have maybe saved her some of the rust belt states.
And Hillary is NOT liberal. Just because democrats let the republicans pull them to the right all the time does not mean the public shifts in the same way.
Heck, there was a sizable chunk of voters who were fans of Sanders and Trump, even though there is basically nothing these two have in common except for the "outsider" narrative.
People want politicians who fight for them, no matter if left or right leaning.
If this election taught us anything its that centrists appeal to nobody and not to everybody like the establishment thought.
It doesn't have to be either/or, WWC/Minorities, I believe. Here, an example:
A colleague of my wife's makes a racist comment. He a nice guy, but a bit racist. Does attracting his vote mean pandering to his racism? Does attracting his vote mean leaving minorities out in the cold? Or does attracting his vote just mean you have to tune out BLM from the campaign advert, and speak to his economic or social circumstances (heroin epidemic, for instance)?
This isn't bloody rocket science, but I think the Bernie bros have done a number on people. It's never just one message. It's never just one demographic. It's just pushing people to accept that people are selfish dicks, and if you can pander to that selfishness, you can win them
This says it so much better than I can.
A colleague of my wife's makes a racist comment. He a nice guy, but a bit racist. Does attracting his vote mean pandering to his racism? Does attracting his vote mean leaving minorities out in the cold? Or does attracting his vote just mean you have to tune out BLM from the campaign advert, and speak to his economic or social circumstances (heroin epidemic, for instance)?
This isn't bloody rocket science, but I think the Bernie bros have done a number on people. It's never just one message. It's never just one demographic. It's just pushing people to accept that people are selfish dicks, and if you can pander to that selfishness, you can win them
These people aren't necessarily opposed to fighting for civil liberties or social justice, but it isn't their primary concern. The Civil Rights Act was enacted using their votes. Labor unions financially backed civil rights movements. But they will vote for their economic interests first.
This says it so much better than I can.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
Just get someone male white to promise the midwest he'll bring manufacturing jobs back. Don't give any specifics (you can't the jobs are never coming back), just keep saying it over and over and over.
There's no 'understanding' the poor disenfranchised working class in areas where manufacturing has been gutted, what they want won't ever happen. You can't turn back the clock. If the manufacturers come back they'll automate so much that a 20th of the workforce will be needed. No amount of ending trade deals, introducing tariffs and subsidies will ever change that. All ending trade deals will do is push up the cost of living which will hurt those folks more.
All you can do is pander. Clinton did have reasonable policies on retraining and increasing college affordability which in theory is the correct response to the gutting of manufacturing, but they didn't want to know clinging to the notion that empty words of a moron would somehow magically bring it all back. It won't.
We need the midwest's help, but I can't abide by the idea that we should lie to them like Trump did. During the next four years, they're going to find out the hard way that he isn't going to provide for them what they wanted and the swamp is going to be expanded rather than drained. If we do what you're suggesting, we're going to prove Trump right when he said that all we care about is squeezing out votes from the downtrodden without really fixing anything.
I am having a hard time listening to, respecting, or buying into anyone who says the following
BERNIE WOULD HAVE WON RIGGED SYSTEM!
DNC needs to be blown up!
THE ESTABLISHMENT IS EVIL THAT's why Trump won!
The voters were sick and angry with the establishment!
I mean give me a break. We all knew, with proof, logic, and evidence, that more than half the BS about Hillary was a myth perpetuated by the far right and unfortunately even the far left.
Yet now in the aftermath and in the rush to blame someone all logic is being thrown out the window. We all knew she wasn't as inspiring and exciting as Obama but we all thought logical sane progressives would come around to her because she did win the primaries faily and because she is actually pretty progressive on issues which matter to us the most.
That people decided not to vote, knowing full well that would help Trump, really truly hurts me as a minority trying to find a place myself and my family in this country. And whether you call it lesser of two evils or not, she was the only logical sane choice and thanks to the apathetic voter, we not only flushed her chances but all he positives Obama put into place.
It's just sickening and it doesn't help that Bernie bros who never bothered to vote for him are now trying to say "told you so" or that people are trying to explain away the racist xenophobic Republican voters by saying they simply wanted an outsider anti-establishment candidate.
Still going with the "bernie bro" shit. You don't get it. She was the wrong candidate. She cant inspire anything. A populist candidate like Bernie would NOT have lost PA, MI and WI which have been pretty solid Blue for decades.
She was the only sane choice but she ran her campaign completely wrong. This is all on her, her campaign and the DNC. They ignored the signs in the primaries when she got destroyed in the rust belt. The party needs to change and the clinton sect needs to be sacced.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
The Democratic base is minorities and women. Apparently not millennials and far left, because they produce massive complainers like you who think they are the base, but contribute nothing to the party but negativity, and don't actually turn out to back progressive causes in elections.
Their base is the middle class, that includes women and minorities.
They alienated the middle class by having an establishment candidate like Clinton who the Trump campaign successfully labled as "in bed with corporate interests".
Wake up man, Clinton lost because of Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania went to Trump. States where Obama won easily. States that lean democrat.
But when they democrat candidate doesn't seem to care about them, while the other guy does... then they'll go red. And it doesn't matter one bit that Trump likely lied to them about stopping TPP and renegotiating NAFTA, he made them believe that he cares, Clinton didn't.
Thats how Trump even convinced a majority of white women to vote for him, thats how Trump convinced a sizable percentage of hispanics to vote for him, even though he regularly insulted them, but at the end of the day these people care about their own well being and that largely connected to the economy, so at the end of the day many decided to vote for the guy who hates them but promises jobs(Trump) over the perceived corporate puppet who doesn't care about their situation at all(Clinton).
I've talked to a lot of people across the US a few months ago, and if asked, they all say that before they view themselves as minority, they view themselves as american with problems like difficulties to find a job, difficulties to get an education etc.
Clinton thought it'd be enough to appeal to minorities as minorities, instead of addressing the normal problems these people face as part of the middle class.
Hillary is a liberal, regardless of your personal feelings about her.
I'm german, by german standards Bernie is centrist.
The strategy you are proposing is on full display in the UK. It has, essentially, destroyed the Labour party as any sort of viable opposition to the party in power. I am unwilling to let that happen to the Democratic party that you so revile, because the rights and livelihoods of millions of people depend on it as an organization.
The democrats would have won this election if they had picked Bernie. You think idealism like that will weaken the party. Why would it?
I always said on here that Bernie would have been pretty bad now. Social democracy is in its infancy in the US, nobody actually has a clue how it works.
Every other somewhat decent political commentator from northern Europe could've ripped holes in Bernie propositions, but in the US nobody did. The Clinton campaign didn't pull a single punch against his propositions.
You want to make college free? How is that going to work without a high school reform? Our economy can take 35% college educated people in workforce at best(we're at 30% right now, about on par with european countries, where college is free or almost free), how are you going to restrict access if not by putting an insane price point on education? And how are you going to make life the other 65-70% better?
None of these questions were asked, ever. Because nobody even know about the issues that arise when making college free.
So yeah, Bernie would've been not ideal, I was hoping for 4-8 years of Clinton during which an informed social democratic movement can form.
But anything would have been than Trump and its beyond me how the democratic party didn't get the memo after Bernies success in the primaries that Clinton needs to adjust her message if she wants to reach as many people as possible.
Heck, it would have probably been enough to have Warren oder Sanders as VP.
The future of the democratic party are people like Warren and Sanders. Principled people.
People are sick of pragmatism in politics. And I don't know if thats a good thing or not, but thats how it is now.
If the democrats continue their establishment ways they'll hand Trump a second term, because guess what. Less regulations, unleashed fossil fuel industry and his tax plan will have short term positive effects. So in 4 years you might look at an uphill battle in Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Colorado and many many more states because he actually brought back some jobs by deregulating fossil fuel industry and investing in infrastructure.
Even though thats not a sustainable strategy, it might just carry him into a second term before it collapses.
We need the midwest's help, but I can't abide by the idea that we should lie to them like Trump did. During the next four years, they're going to find out the hard way that he isn't going to provide for them what they wanted and the swamp is going to be expanded rather than drained. If we do what you're suggesting, we're going to prove Trump right when he said that all we care about is squeezing out votes from the downtrodden without really fixing anything.
And it's what subtle disenfranchisement looks like. Lie repeatedly, and voters won't care, and won't use their vote.
Educate people and you can turn them to your party, and get more of the population voting. Both of which are good.
Again, I ask: Is their any national organisation that focuses on political education and GOTV?
Sirpopopop
Member
Stop the liberal bubble thinking that every single rural white is a racist. Enough of this. This is why you democrats lose elections. These are the exact same people that voted for Barack Obama and now changed to Donald Trump. You better reach out to these people or you're going to not have control of any government branch for decades. This group isn't getting smaller.
Again, you're explicitly saying that I need to accept and tolerate racism & racist apologists in my life, and work with them about making decisions about who runs my government. That's appeasement.
Not happening. I don't care if power is lost as a result. This is a lot to ask for after the USA elected an overtly unapologetic racist human being to be its President.
These type of swing voters piss me off more than solid Rs. At least with them, I know it's just a team sport. I know where they stand.
This is worse. This is a group of people who occasionally pretend to care, but they really don't. They are fickle allies, and I'm tired of dealing with fickle allies after this mess. I think a lot of minorities feel the same way. I don't want to court people who voted for Trump this time and Obama the last time. I refuse to support a party that wants to court racist apologists. Having to cover up BLM. Having to say bullshit like "Radical Islamic Terrorism" to make these people happy.
Nope. Nope. Nopenopenopenopenope.
You can have your Rust Belt Bernie DNC.
I'm german, by german standards Bernie is centrist.
If you can't realise that the political spectrum varies depending upon country, then I don't even...
Bernie was left on the US political spectrum. Like Corbyn is left on the UK spectrum.
Again, you're explicitly saying that I need to accept and tolerate racism & racist apologists in my life, and work with them about making decisions about who runs my government. That's appeasement.
A lot of the US has "bad" feelings. Not a lot of people are friendly towards gays, or Muslims, for instance. Attracting them doesn't appease them, it says that they're not absolutely evil. And whilst they may be from your perspective, it is literally impossible to win without them.
IggyChooChoo
Member
Populist Russ Feingold sure as hell lost, and lost *worse* than Hillary in Wisconsin to a guy who said Social Security was a Ponzi scheme. Populism is not a silver bullet. I am less convinced people vote their economic interests so much as vote their economic scapegoats. And the GOP is way better at demogoguing a scapegoat and straight-up lying about being able to bring manufacturing jobs back to the rust belt than we are.A populist candidate like Bernie would NOT have lost PA, MI and WI which have been pretty solid Blue for decades.
excelsiorlef
Member
Lee Fang has got some very interesting thoughts.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
HA HA HA HA HA HA
https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/796993561036062720
(Fuck this loser)
There's that Intercept supreme idiocy I've been expecting
the intercept is staffed from top to bottom with those clowns. totally unsurprised Greenwald and co. took a victory lap upon Trump's election.
actually, they are. the problem is the ineffieciently allocated coalition. Clinton bled more WWC than she picked up in suburban voters. in addition, she grew too much in non-competitive states like TX, AZ, CA. the map will continue to evolve. obviously you need to lose these voters by Obama margins and not Hillary margins, but that's not to say that the Democratic party's demographic "destiny" (I hate that term) is really significantly altered by this election... I mean she is going to win the popular vote by 1-2%. That's insane.
Stop the liberal bubble thinking that every single rural white is a racist. Enough of this. This is why you democrats lose elections. These are the exact same people that voted for Barack Obama and now changed to Donald Trump. You better reach out to these people or you're going to not have control of any government branch for decades. This group isn't getting smaller.
actually, they are. the problem is the ineffieciently allocated coalition. Clinton bled more WWC than she picked up in suburban voters. in addition, she grew too much in non-competitive states like TX, AZ, CA. the map will continue to evolve. obviously you need to lose these voters by Obama margins and not Hillary margins, but that's not to say that the Democratic party's demographic "destiny" (I hate that term) is really significantly altered by this election... I mean she is going to win the popular vote by 1-2%. That's insane.
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