Support NeoGAF

[Frank the Great]

Where did you read that he wants to privatize Medicare right away?

There's a thread on it.

 

[Dierce]

It's happening again right before our eyes. A joke turned into reality.

No one thought he could get to the primaries, no one thought he could become the nominee, no one thought he could become President. Now no one thinks he'll actually do what he said he would do or go fully Fascistic.

It's all happening.

And it is happening much faster than it did in Germany.

 

[Totakeke]

I think another Obama would be awesome. Remember the wave of 2008?

I think I'm remembering more on how 2016 decided undo his legacy.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Conservatives aren't making those arguments. Leftists are.

Fang's reverse racism comment is stupid, but Democratic inattention to class struggle is unacceptable and dangerous.

As is Class Struggle is magic fix thinking of the leftists...

Say with me again... minorities are your base.

They drag statistics constantly

She won the woman vote by 11-12 points because minority women made up for the pathetic voting of white women who went for the pussy grabber

She won the youth vote by 17 points because minority youth made up for the pathetic voting of white youth who went for the White Nationalist.


Minorities save your lefty asses and now all people can talk about is how to artfully throw them under the bus in the name of class struggle

 

[IggyChooChoo]

So Ryan wants to privatize Medicare as part of the Obamacare repeal.

No fucking way Medicare privatization gets through even a Republican Senate with so many seats up in 2018. And who knows how Trump feels about this.

It will be interesting to see how the party infighting plays out.

Trump wanting to do away with preexisting conditions is going to go over really poorly, too.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

It's happening again right before our eyes. A joke turned into reality.

No one thought he could get to the primaries, no one thought he could become the nominee, no one thought he could become President. Now no one thinks he'll actually do what he said he would do or go fully Fascistic.

It's all happening.

Spoileralert: Hitler was very successful in the beginning because of huge infrastructure projects that lead to jobs.

 

[RustyNails]

So a POTUS has to release all his tax documents every year, right?

 

[jtb]

It only just now dawned on me we have to deal with an entire other presidential campaign with Trump all over again in 4 years.

The Rubio, Paul, Cruz class have a long 8 years of waiting around.

we may actually see a primary challenge in 2020. not that I think anyone of this current crop has enough spine in the party to follow through with, but if he turns out to be the disaster we all think he will be, there would be justification for a coup within the party.

 

[VRMN]

So a POTUS has to release all his tax documents every year, right?

Oh you're funny.

 

[Gruco]

actually, they are. the problem is the ineffieciently allocated coalition. Clinton bled more WWC than she picked up in suburban voters. in addition, she grew too much in non-competitive states like TX, AZ, CA. the map will continue to evolve. obviously you need to lose these voters by Obama margins and not Hillary margins, but that's not to say that the Democratic party's demographic "destiny" (I hate that term) is really significantly altered by this election... I mean she is going to win the popular vote by 1-2%. That's insane.

People pretending this election is about liberals being out of touch with america are missing the narrative completely. This was not a Trump blow out. The election was lost for a variety of reasons, and the problem is a strategic one, not a "re-evaluate your life one." Racist populism played an important part of this election and people are already suffering its consequences. Someone needs to explain to me why getting out of my "bubble" is more important than that. The answer is obviously not "because otherwise you always lose" because that is not supported by the results of the election.

 

[Chumley]

Spoileralert: Hitler was very successful in the beginning because of huge infrastructure projects that lead to jobs.

Yep.

The Wall. And then a war. And then internment camps.

 

[RustyNails]

Spoileralert: Hitler was very successful in the beginning because of huge infrastructure projects that lead to jobs.

Not when Randian acolytes like Paul Ryan control the purse strings.

Whats going to happen is the Kansas Brownback Experiment on a national scale.

 

[Pixieking]

But they never went out and shouted it into peoples faces. They never made these exited for these plans. They never convinced them of it and why its better than whatever Trump told he'll do.
For fucks sake, Clinton didn't even show up in Wisconsin...

She mentioned it in all three debates. 90+million people watched those. No denying, though, she should have pushed it more. I think she was too busy running defense trying to debunk what Trump was saying.

You can't play out the importance of different issues against each other. Thats how you divide the nation because it suddenly sounds one persons problems are more important than another persons problems and vice versa.*

Money in politics is a systemic issue, though. Its connected to every last topic and if we want to have a truly democratic process regarding issues like climate change, like the economy, like healthcare, like education, like LGBTQ rights.

One of the reasons LGBTQ issues are having such a hard time is because the christian right has so much money and that blows their influence up overproportionally.
Mental health is part of a sensible healthcare reform, which is blocked and obstructed by big Pharma because they can pour ungodly amounts of money on our politicians.
The same for drug use.


*If you ask me, the most important issue right now is climate change because what we do or don't do right now has the potential to kill billions in the future. However, I completely understand that for example people of color who have to fear for their lives when they walk down the street and are stopped by cops, are viewing other issues are more pressing.
We shouldn't play these groups out against each other.

But it's not playing groups against eachother. It's targeting your message to individual groups - one message for the African American's afraid of the police, a different one for the white working class afraid of their sister overdosing on heroin. This is politics through pragmatism

You say "Money in politics is a systemic issue" and it is. But solving money in politics doesn't ensure the safety of Roe v Wade, or gay marriage, for instance. Yes "christian right has so much money and that blows their influence up overproportionally", but it's not just money that that affects their influence, its ideas. Evangelicals voted for a racist rapist who doesn't even believe in God, because he's anti-abortion, and abortion conflicts with their faith. That can't be solved by solving money issues, because that's a religious group voting as a block.

 

[pigeon]

Do racists vote for a black dude?

Ben Carson voters migrated to Trump. They absolutely do.

Couldn't it just be that they have other priorities? That they don't see or don't understand the implicit racism in "black people are living in hell"?

Or the racism in "Mexican immigrants are rapists?" Or in "let's put Muslims on a registry?"

Come on, man.

And how's that working out for you? This is better?

That's why I asked the question. These - incidentally - are basically the same questions that every party that loses an election asks itself. "To what extent should be compromise on our ideals to win power?" And implicit in that question is the similar-but-different question of "to what extent would compromising on our ideals help us win", which is what I was asking. Because politics is, in your country and mine, more or less a binary thing. Your boys win or your boys lose. If you think that "dropping all this minority stuff" will help you "win the game" but opt not to on the grounds that your daughters' life is not a chip in a game, you get Trump. Is that the better option? Is that better than a Democrat who kept mum on the subject of minorities in the Rust Belt?

It is a game. Trump just won.

You don't get moral victories here. We need candidates who are going to enact change, and if that means shifting focus to attain victory then so be it.

Johnson had to tip-toe around landmines to pass the Civil Rights Act. But he did it. You need people in office who even believe such a movement in order to enact any change, even if it's not publicly the focus of their campaign.

They need to focus on jobs again. It's always about jobs.

Like I said last night

Focusing on just minorities will guarantee that Democrats will continue losing elections. White people are the majority in the country. If you ignore the same people you decry as Rural Racists, then we will never win another election again. Just the minority vote is not enough.

I was going to include a few more quotes in this list, but honestly, I just got tired of going through them.

I get it. You think the Democrats talked too much about race. You probably think I talk too much about race in this thread!

And you might even be right. America is clearly a heavily white nationalist country. Arguably it is not possible to win elections while prioritizing the right of people of color to live in peace.

But I'm not going to sign on. I can understand the desire of white liberals to discard the concerns of people of color in order to win electoral victories. After all, it is the selfsame desire that Trump voters indulged in earlier this week. But don't expect me to condone it, and if you win the fight for the Democratic Party, don't expect me to support it.

Again, making blanket statements about an entire swath of people is ignorance on exact same level republicans have. The exact same. I've worked with/lived with/went to school with/went to church with rural whites for over 3 decades in different states. These people you linked to in that post? The minority. A very loud, brazen, idiotic minority.

Gosh, it's amazing how everybody who says that white rural Americans didn't vote for Trump because of white nationalism turns out to know a bunch of white rural Americans who voted for Trump, including some outspoken white nationalists!

It's almost like you want to normalize their choice so that white nationalism can continue to be ascendant in America.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

As is Class Struggle is magic fix thinking of the leftists...

Say with me again... minorities are your base.

They drag statistics constantly

She won the woman vote by 11-12 points because minority women made up for the pathetic voting of white women who went for the pussy grabber

She won the youth vote by 17 points because minority youth made up for the pathetic voting of white youth who went for the White Nationalist.


Minorities save your lefty asses and now all people can talk about is how to artfully throw them under the bus in the name of class struggle

Conveniently ignoring that Clintons performance among minorities was down compared to Obamas and Trumps was up compared to Romneys
Don't act like this is all that easy. Thats exactly what we shouldn't do right now.

 

[jtb]

Question: should Dems work with Trump and moderate Rs to pass a big infrastructure bill? if we think it will be a good policy that is long overdue and will help americans, do you take the risk of letting Trump take credit for it and appear as a moderate? also knowing that a sometimes-alliance with Trump will help Ds (and Trump) maneuver against Ryan/McConnel as well.

or do you pursue GOP-style obstructionism, knowing that Ryan and co. have no interest in Trump's economic populism and let it die.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

The amount of "liberals need to show more empathy!" takes are going to make me hate every centrist person in America.

These people that felt bad when Samantha Bee made jokes literally just voted in a president that wants Syrian children to be murdered by Russia because he views all children of Muslims to be future terrorists.

And you know what? The president has control over that so tens of thousands of Syrian children will be left to die in Syria because of these voters we need to show more empathy to.

Kiss my fucking asshole and walk on broken glass if you talk about liberals needing more "empathy."

You know what these fuckers would call it if non-white people (or Jews or atheists) were asking for empathy? They call "political correctness." Fuck your feelings, you just voted in a guy who will kill Syrian children.

 

[Valhelm]

No I've already seen some conservative say that shit recently (and they are conservative I generally like or begrudgingly respect too). I wasn't aware Fang was from the left though. That being said I just don't agree that Democrats don't care about class struggle. They are the only party that really puts forth proposals to try to amend it. The issue this election was messaging/the messenger. I'd further note that how important issues of class are to different sets of voters is variable and the Democratic coalition is more diverse than the GOP coalition. Minorities want jobs like everybody else but "WALL STREET" and "Your best days are behind you!" aren't messages that resonate as strongly with that group. For a lot of minorities, economic disadvantage is rooted in the denial of access to opportunities. I'll give you one chance to guess what is the biggest obstacle many of them face to accessing that opportunity?

What Trump did in 2016 was offer two-part populism of white nationalism and protectionism. Many liberal analysts consistently ignored the danger of Trump's promises to "win our trade back" and end unemployment. His economic rhetoric was appealing to large numbers of lower-middle-class whites and netted him a third of the Hispanic electorate. Liberal myopia on economics was one of the biggest contributing factors to Hillary's loss.

Appealing to Rust Belt whites isn't exclusive to appealing to workers of color. Obama did it twice. Hillary could not. This isn't entirely her fault, because Obama was lucky enough to run against candidates offering even more austere economic solutions. Hillary's campaign, disregarding Trump's economic appeal, couldn't predict the kind of Obama-Trump crossover we saw on Tuesday. This led to some absolutely horrible campaign decisions:

The amount of "liberals need to show more empathy!" takes are going to make me hate every centrist person in America.

These people that felt bad when Samantha Bee made jokes literally just voted in a president that wants Syrian children to be murdered by Russia because he views all children of Muslims to be future terrorists.

It isn't a matter of empathy. It certainly isn't a matter of being "too progressive." In letting Trump make protectionist promises that largely went uncontested, Hillary's campaign ceded most issues of trade and employment to Trump. Her campaign naively assumed that Rust Belt voters would support a status quo that hasn't given them many concrete benefits. Trump offered direct solutions that seemed to work, and enough voters were willing to look past his racism to elect him.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I'm just going to say that liberals were literally the only people that showed empathy towards white people regarding heroin this year.

Hillary genuinely cared, Trump said that he would kill Mexicans to make up for white people being poisoned by heroin.

Fuckers.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Evangelicals voted for a sexually assaulting rapist who doesn't even believe in God, because he's anti-abortion, and that abortion conflicts with their faith.

You are not going to be able to change these people through argument, so what you do is you take power away from them.

Not when Randian acolytes like Paul Ryan control the purse strings.

Deregulation will have the same effect, because then the investments come from private sources and Ryan is fine with it.
And instead of the Autobahn you're going to build pipelines.

 

[Totakeke]

I'm just going to say that liberals were literally the only people that showed empathy towards white people regarding heroin this year.

Hillary genuinely cared, Trump said that he would kill Mexicans to make up for white people being poisoned by heroin.

Fuckers.

Jeffrey Lord on CNN saying that protests are fake and that media was at fault for inciting protests. Blame. Blame. Deflect. Deflect. Brilliant future we're in here. They're not going to stop their propaganda machine that worked so well.

 

[Pixieking]

I'm just going to say that liberals were literally the only people that showed empathy towards white people regarding heroin this year.

Hillary genuinely cared, Trump said that he would kill Mexicans to make up for white people being poisoned by heroin.

Fuckers.

God, reading this just makes me want to cry again.

Morbid hope for 2018/2020 - the overdoses continue, Dems win and actually help people.

 

[RustyNails]

You are not going to be able to change these people through argument, so what you do is you take power away from them.



Deregulation will have the same effect, because then the investments come from private sources and Ryan is fine with it.
And instead of the Autobahn you're going to build pipelines.

Not sure about that. Deregulation does not spur job growth in any fashion.

 

[TumblingHippo]

The amount of posts in OT that basically boil down to "NeoGAF should be more open to allowing opinions that oppress minorities" is pretty disheartening.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Conveniently ignoring that Clintons performance among minorities was down compared to Obamas and Trumps was up compared to Romneys
Don't act like this is all that easy. Thats exactly what we shouldn't do right now.

Because minorities aren't a monolith despite but the end result is the same the only people who vote Democrat in a reliable fashion is minorities... period, end of story.

I didn't say easy... some of y'all talk easy more than I do... hence why I called out class struggle as magic...

But it is undeniable that when you talk of going forward there is a heavy implication of going forward with minorities put on mute or their volume way down

Just saying you run a Sanders clone in 2020 and good luck getting him through the primary and if ya do and if y'all really run with this identity politics are getting in the way mindset I'm seeing those Clinton minority turnout numbers are your best case scenario.

 

[Valhelm]

I'm just going to say that liberals were literally the only people that showed empathy towards white people regarding heroin this year.

Hillary genuinely cared, Trump said that he would kill Mexicans to make up for white people being poisoned by heroin.

Fuckers.

A hell of a lot more people would have heard this message if she had stopped in Wisconsin even once after the Primary.

Because minorities aren't a monolith but the end result is the same the only people who vote Democrat in a reliable fashion is minorities... period, end of story.

I didn't say easy... some of y'all talk easy more than I do... hence why I called out class struggle as magic...

But it is undeniable that when you talk of going forward there is a heavy implication of going forward with minorities put on mute or their volume way down

Just saying you run a Sanders clone in 2020 and good luck getting him through the primary and if ya do and if y'all really run with this identity politics are getting in the way mindset I'm seeing those Clinton minority turnout numbers are your best case scenario.

There's no reason whatsoever for class struggle to be exclusive with tearing down institutional racism. These factors play off each other. Black and brown Americans suffer the brutality of capitalism worst of all.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I wonder how many Philippines takes have been written about "big city elites need to show more empathy for town voters who want drug addicts to be executed."

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

I'm just going to say that liberals were literally the only people that showed empathy towards white people regarding heroin this year.

Hillary genuinely cared, Trump said that he would kill Mexicans to make up for white people being poisoned by heroin.

Fuckers.

The reason is that heroin addiction comes from prescription drug addition and prescription drug addiction comes from Pharma companies pushing opiates down peoples throats with the help of bribed doctors and a broken healthcare system.

The solution to the heroin problem would be a sensible healthcare system, maybe something like in Germany were non-profit insurance companies are between Pharma and patient, to make sure the patient gets the best care for the lowest price, because that way the insurance companies has the lowest cost: interest of patient and insurance company align => Pharma can't exploit patients wallet and health anymore.

So you can bet your ass Pharma will spend money on keeping things like the are, thereby further escalating the heroin problem.

 

[Pixieking]

You are not going to be able to change these people through argument, so what you do is you take power away from them.

Their power resides in their religion! They think abortions are bad. They are willing to force women into life-threatening births in order for the baby to survive. They do this because they are religious people. And they do this over and above the fact that the guy promising this harms women.

It's like arguing that removing their financial base will stop Creationism being taught in schools. The one (money) has no effect on the other, because religion.

There's a good argument to be made that the Religious Right have harmed women as powerfully as minorities with their vote for Trump.

The amount of posts in OT that basically boil down to "NeoGAF should be more open to allowing opinions that oppress minorities" is pretty disheartening.

Another reason why I'm avoiding OT.

 

[Gruco]

I'm just going to say that liberals were literally the only people that showed empathy towards white people regarding heroin this year.

Hillary genuinely cared, Trump said that he would kill Mexicans to make up for white people being poisoned by heroin.

Fuckers.

Hillary made very serious mistakes, but her credibility gap was a bigger problem. It genuinely makes me sad that people in this thread seem more invested making excuses for racial violence and authoritarianism than in calling out the host of bad actors involved in expanding that credibility gap.

I don't think showing up on people's door's and calling them racists is the solution for 2020. But FFS. This is a real problem being faced by communities of color, tangibly and currently.

 

[Totakeke]

A hell of a lot more people would have heard this message if she had stopped in Wisconsin even once after the Primary.

How about we stop relying on a single person being everywhere to tell everyone what they need to hear. Campaigns can make mistakes, we should not stake the future of america on a campaign doing everything right.

 

[excelsiorlef]

There's no reason whatsoever for class struggle to be exclusive with fighting institutional racism. These factors play off each other. Black and brown Americans suffer the brutality of capitalism worst of all.

Of course it is but that's not the message coming out right now like at all.

 

[whyamihere]

A hell of a lot more people would have heard this message if she had stopped in Wisconsin even once after the Primary.

And she practically lived in Pennsylvania and it didn't make a lick of difference.

 

[Suikoguy]

The amount of posts in OT that basically boil down to "NeoGAF should be more open to allowing opinions that oppress minorities" is pretty disheartening.

EvilLore is not having it based on his post and closed thread. I think it's just the mods have to figure out where the line is now. It was incredibly tough for them leading up to the election, as Trump would have been banned if he posted here.

 

[Valhelm]

How about we stop relying on a single person being everywhere to tell everyone what they need to hear. Campaigns can make mistakes, we should not stake the future of america on a campaign doing everything right.

Well, yeah. A transition away from bourgeois democracy is necessary but essentially impossible.

Of course it is but that's not the message coming out right now like at all.

Yes it is? Identity politics aren't a problem. It's incredibly important to highlight the struggles of minority communities, especially when up against a candidate as monstrous as Donald Trump. What leftists are saying, and have been saying since the primary, is that identity politics alone are insufficient.

 

[excelsiorlef]

EvilLore is not having it based on his post and closed thread. I think it's just the mods have to figure out where the line is now. It's was incredibly tough for them leading up to the election, as Trump would have been banned if he posted here.

EvilLore is giving me life right now... god bless him.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

The reason is that heroin addiction comes from prescription drug addition and prescription drug addiction comes from Pharma companies pushing opiates down peoples throats with the help of bribed doctors and a broken healthcare system.

The solution to the heroin problem would be a sensible healthcare system, maybe something like in Germany were non-profit insurance companies are between Pharma and patient, to make sure the patient gets the best care for the lowest price, because that way the insurance companies has the lowest cost: interest of patient and insurance company align => Pharma can't exploit patients wallet and health anymore.

So you can bet your ass Pharma will spend money on keeping things like the are, thereby further escalating the heroin problem.

What does this have to do with media dumbfucks saying that "lack of liberal empathy caused Trump"?

Trump showed no empathy whatsoever for drug addicts and instead promised to murder Mexicans to make up for it.Hillary had campaign ads and several campaign events focused on heroin addiction based around "let's help people suffering from this disease."

 

[Totakeke]

Well, yeah. A transition away from bourgeois democracy is necessary but essentially impossible.

DNC needs infrastructure everywhere. The message needs to be hammered every single second for the next four years because we sure can't rely on the media to relay that message.

 

[Suikoguy]

What does this have to do with media dumbfucks saying that "lack of liberal empathy caused Trump"?

Trump showed no empathy whatsoever for drug addicts and instead promised to murder Mexicans to make up for it.Hillary had campaign ads and several campaign events focused on heroin addiction based around "let's help people suffering from this disease."

Remember when "Compassionate Conservatism" was a thing?

bwhahaha

 

[Grief.exe]

EvilLore is not having it based on his post and closed thread. I think it's just the mods have to figure out where the line is now. It was incredibly tough for them leading up to the election, as Trump would have been banned if he posted here.

EvilLore is giving me life right now... god bless him.

Can I get a link to the thread?

 

[Pixieking]

How about we stop relying on a single person being everywhere to tell everyone what they need to hear. Campaigns can make mistakes, we should not stake the future of america on a campaign doing everything right.

It's a dangerous stance to take. Another sign that polarisation in politics has gone overboard - you can't expect to hit a high-note every week, every day. There will be mistakes, so you need a base which will accept this, and not punish the candidate or the party for a wrong move.

Case in point - If Bernie Bros shut the fuck up about the "rigged" primaries and just accepted the outcome and voted, Hillary would've won. We also wouldn't be having purity tests for the DNC.

EvilLore is giving me life right now... god bless him.

Link to posts, pls?

 

[Sirpopopop]

There's no reason whatsoever for class struggle to be exclusive with tearing down institutional racism. These factors play off each other. Black and brown Americans suffer the brutality of capitalism worst of all.

Both sides talked about class struggle. Donald Trump's message of NAFTA, Mexicans, and "they are taking our jobs" resonated far more than Hillary Clinton's far more nuanced and minority hospitable message of clean energy along with a host of tax cuts & spending increases.

So if you want to appeal to these voters, you need to assail trade agreements. You need to demonize the other. You need to offer facile solutions like, "Damn those foreigners."

 

[Suikoguy]

Can I get a link to the thread?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=223952688&highlight=#post223952688

 

[excelsiorlef]

Can I get a link to the thread?

I just meant in general

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=223952688&highlight=#post223952688

Oh and specfically here.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

What countries don't have shit media, and how can we emulate that?

 

[Debirudog]

Thank the mods.

I guess everyone has different ideas but I think emotions are too high right now for anyone to evaluate what happened. It is fine to be cold and criticial but we really don't need this venom dripping everywhere. I just hope this anger doesn't necessarily break up into lack of cooperation from both sides.

 

[Suikoguy]

It's really tough though, you don't want to overcorrect and get rid of discussion.

I would probably turn down a mod position if offered at this point. (I tend to be too standoffish and snarky for it anyway, lol).

Anyway, enough meta talk, we will see what happens in the coming weeks. The situation is clearly not being ignored.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I just meant in general




Oh and specfically here.

What an awesome post!

 

[Veelk]

I just overheard my mom talking on the phone. She was talking about Trump and how he's being accused of sexual harassment with the whole pussy grabbing video.

Her response was something like "Well, why is she accusing him of sexual harassment? What he should have responded with was pointing out what the fuck she was doing when Bill was having sex with Monica and who knows how many others. That would shut her right up."

It's not the first time that my mom has brought up a sentiment. She seems to genuinely believe that Hillary is to blame for Bill's having sex with a woman. More than that, she seems to consider a consensual affair to be comparable to sexual assault. But with Trump's victory, she feels the need to lord it over, like "ha, see, told you she was just as bad".

This is coming from a woman who herself has experienced sexual harassment. And there are 53% of white women who think like her, and voted trump.

I don't understand this. I am never going to understand this.

 

[TumblingHippo]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=223952688&highlight=#post223952688

Stuff like this gives me hope, at least.