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PoliGAF 2016 |OT6| Delete your accounts

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C

Crayons

Banned
If you asked me a year ago I'd think Bernie would have dropped out by February, the GOP nominee would be Jeb or Walker, and Cruz and Trump would have failed hard
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
Suikoguy said:
Oregon should be weird since it's all mail-in.
Click to expand...
Oregon's weird because it's all mail-in, it's a closed primary, a bunch of new voters just got disenfranchised, the rural vote is VERY old, etc. This is going to be close. Benchmark has it at Sanders +1 but I would say it's Clinton +1.
 
A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
TheFatOne said:
Here's the article to back up my point, and heres a quote.
Click to expand...

Yeah, this is what I was getting at.

Valhelm said:
None of Cornel West's criticism of Obama are unfounded, though. Focusing so much on him was a misstep, but Bernie aligned himself with West early in his campaign, before other black officials and public intellectuals (Ralph Ellison, Ta-Nehisi Coates, Ben Jealous) announced their support.

Do you mind showing me where Sanders outright said those comments about middle class whites over minorities?



That's deplorable but it isn't unique. In New York, an outright majority of incarcerated people are black. I don't think either of these problems can really be blamed on either Sanders or Clinton, because senators have little power in affecting local policing. While Sanders likely could have done more to influence politics within his state, the exact same could be said about Clinton. When comparing them on racial justice, this is a moot point.
Click to expand...

West questioning Obama's "blackness" isn't a great point to have on the campaign trail, and that's a drum that West's been beating for awhile now. It's not an opinion that will endear you to black voters, and personally, it's a disgusting position to hold anyway.

And I don't blame Sanders for the incarceration in VT. That's not exactly his wheelhouse, but it's pretty bad that civil rights groups in your own state don't really feel like they know you. The contrast of Hillary getting raucous Harlem lunches to talk about what they'd do to anyone that trash-talked Hillary on the street compared with the radio silence from Vermont groups is pretty striking.

If you put me in charge of Sanders' campaign, and turned back time to try it again, my biggest concern would be contrasting optics. The contrasts between him and Clinton haven't been kind; racial issues, experience, even his trademark anger haven't won him any favors outside of his camp.
 
E

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
Man these folks on CNN are really going in circles, all they say about Trump is that he is flexible on everything. I don't think people see that as a bad thing.

Also I hope Hillary doesn't fall for this Kim Jung-Un trap from Trump's camp. Bill Clinton went to NK to secure the release of an hostage before, and if Hillary comes out and says something like "I'd never negotiate with NK" it will make her look like a hawk to Dems.
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
"Scientific skeptics" bashing anti-depressants when studies have shown that they are really effective for people suffering from extreme depression make me mad. Sure, you can talk about anti-depressants not being effective for people with mild to moderate depression, but I was suicidal from 13 to 21 before anti-depressants and I now I have an incredible life after Zoloft. These "skeptics" are dumbshits.

Also, Noah Smith should stfu:

But "racial resentment" is not the same thing as outright bigotry. Believing that the government unfairly helps black people doesn't necessarily mean you dislike black people.
Click to expand...

Are you fucking kidding me.
 
G

gcubed

Member
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
"Scientific skeptics" bashing anti-depressants when studies have shown that they are really effective for people suffering from extreme depression make me mad. Sure, you can talk about anti-depressants not being effective for people with mild to moderate depression, but I was suicidal from 13 to 21 before anti-depressants and I now I have an incredible life after Zoloft. These "skeptics" are dumbshits.

Also, Noah Smith should stfu:



Are you fucking kidding me.
Click to expand...

another check on the "racists really hate being called racist"
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
Crocodile said:
-Thinks Sanders activism work and messaging is better on racial issues than Clinton
-Thinks Cornell West is a good surrogate
-Downplays racism in voting patterns of many "White-Working Class" voters (article postings, WV data, etc.)

Eh......not trying to hate on you Valhelm but this is not a good look in my eyes. I can't say I agree with any of these points :/
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm not going to continue. You're right that I'm being difficult, and racism and misogyny probably both played a bigger role in Sanders' WV win than I'd like to admit. Bernie Sanders really shouldn't be running at this point, and it's shameful that he hasn't properly condemned his aggressive supporters in Nevada. But I believe he's done some amazing good for this country, and it bothers me hugely to see him described by so many Clinton supporters as some kind of closet conservative who's actually to the right of Clinton, the politician who has earned over $23 million speaking before financial institutions and seeks to reform that industry (which her own daughter once worked in) through soft regulations that still leave the control of our economy in the hands of very few people who work for profit rather than the welfare of our people.

Bernie Sanders is the first politician in recent memory to seriously challenge the growing issue of wealth disparity, and critique the entrenchment of poverty and corporate power within our nation. I think Obama was a more-than-decent president, but Americans deserve somebody who is truly progressive when it comes to class struggle. While the Republicans are obviously incomparably worse, the Democratic party is still a party which broadly supports lasseiz-faire capitalism, and until this changes the working people are going to suffer.

I never expected him to get nearly as far as he did, and I think his contribution to our country has been valuable. To demonize Bernie Sanders like this is disingenuous, and while I recognize that Clinton has been subject to even more false attacks and mischaracterizations, that doesn't make this mistreatment of Bernie Sanders acceptable. It's not uncommon on Gaf to see Bernie be treated as a reactionary, which is hugely dishonest. His economic goals are revolutionary when compared to any other American politician, and this ought to be recognized. Even if you prefer Hillary Clinton as a candidate, Sanders' ability to bypass the vestiges of the Red Scare and change the conversation of labor in ways not since since the 1930s is groundbreaking.

AntraxSuicide said:
West questioning Obama's "blackness" isn't a great point to have on the campaign trail, and that's a drum that West's been beating for awhile now. It's not an opinion that will endear you to black voters, and personally, it's a disgusting position to hold anyway.
Click to expand...

I wasn't familiar with those comments, so I assumed you meant West's critique of Obama's foreign policy. My mistake.

shinra-bansho said:
Trump's racist message is pretty warmly received by racists.

I don't know why we have to keep tiptoeing around that these "working class whites" are angry because they no longer hold as much sway compared to "those uppity coloured people and dirty rapist Mexicans."
Click to expand...

Many working class white people are racist, but they still suffer under poverty, and aren't beyond saving. Whites in the Old South were, in their own subtle way, hurt by the slave system, but they were hoodwinked by rich white people into supporting slavery. While slavery might not exist, the same principles are in place: "Go along with my agenda, because it makes you better than the black or brown person next door." Trump is just one of so many wealthy conservatives who exploits racial differences to divide the working class and gain support.

I don't believe racism is natural, especially if we compare the US to historically more harmonious multiethnic societies. So much of the reason why racism is entrenched is because the perpetuation of racism perpetuates the elite. Interracial marriage was only made illegal due to the fear of poor white and poor black people uniting . While poor white people have traditionally been the lapdogs of racism, they aren't the reason why racism is so entrenched.
 
S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Guardian has a blurb at the bottom saying:

"Polls begin to close at 10:00pm ET. Results expected after 11:00pm ET."
 
A

Adaren

Member
Since Oregon does mail-in voting, are they expected to start churning out results fairly quickly? Or does the tallying not start until after 8?
 
S

shinra-bansho

Member
No one's calling him a closet conservative. A bunch of WV Dems are. A lot of "white working class" are either overtly or diet.

Also, I really don't get why people feel the need to append non-sequitur walls of praise about how awesome they think he is. It may sound blunt, but no one really cares at this point.
 
A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
Valhelm said:
Yeah, I'm not going to continue. You're right that I'm being difficult, and racism and misogyny probably both played a bigger role in Sanders' WV win than I'd like to admit. Bernie Sanders really shouldn't be running at this point, and it's shameful that he hasn't properly condemned his aggressive supporters in Nevada. But I believe he's done some amazing good for this country, and it bothers me hugely to see him described by so many Clinton supporters as some kind of closet conservative who's actually to the right of Clinton, the politician who has earned over $23 million speaking before financial institutions and seeks to reform that industry (which her own daughter once worked in) through soft regulations that still leave the control of our economy in the hands of very few people who work for profit rather than the welfare of our people.

Bernie Sanders is the first politician in recent memory to seriously challenge the growing issue of wealth disparity, and critique the entrenchment of poverty and corporate power within our nation. I think Obama was a more-than-decent president, but Americans deserve somebody who is truly progressive when it comes to class struggle. While the Republicans are obviously incomparably worse, the Democratic party is still a party which broadly supports lasseiz-faire capitalism, and until this changes the working people are going to suffer.

I never expected him to get nearly as far as he did, and I think his contribution to our country has been valuable. To demonize Bernie Sanders like this is disingenuous, and while I recognize that Clinton has been subject to even more false attacks and mischaracterizations, that doesn't make this mistreatment of Bernie Sanders acceptable. It's not uncommon on Gaf to see Bernie be treated as a reactionary, which is hugely dishonest. His economic goals are revolutionary when compared to any other American politician, and this ought to be recognized. Even if you prefer Hillary Clinton as a candidate, Sanders' ability to bypass the vestiges of the Red Scare and change the conversation of labor in ways not since since the 1930s is groundbreaking.
Click to expand...

Hey, nothing wrong with being more economically minded. It's a serious facet of the country to try to fix, and that's worth something. There's just a lot of (probably accidental) racism that gets wrapped up in certain progressive arguments. Like, for example, when people talk about why the DNC should be pushing to win over independents by picking the candidate that does better with them, the implication is that it doesn't matter which candidate did better with minority voters. The argument unintentionally becomes "Those voters will fall in line for whoever, but we should cater to the independents."

That's a rough message, and it's not going to play well in a country that's really only had 2 presidents ever pander to minorities in a way that gave them agency. Like, one of the things people level at Bill on crime reform is that it ended up hurting black people. But the thing is, black people were looking for laws like that, and so the choice becomes: "Do you ignore them for their own good, or let them decide what's best for them?" The former happened for centuries, and the Clintons (and Obama) offered the latter. That was a big shift, and it's a little regressive on racial issues (accidentally, of course).


I wasn't familiar with those comments, so I assumed you meant West's critique of Obama's foreign policy. My mistake.
Click to expand...

Ah, I see. It's all good. No, criticism of Obama is fine (risky with the electorate, but totally sound). West just burned a lot of bridges by pulling a Cosby on trying to gatekeep what it means to be black.
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
shinra-bansho said:
A lot of "white working class" are either overtly or diet.
Click to expand...

I think we ought to spent more time looking at why these people are racist, and how we can change it. The white poor don't need to be the enemies of progressives.

AntraxSuicide said:
Like, for example, when people talk about why the DNC should be pushing to win over independents by picking the candidate that does better with them, the implication is that it doesn't matter which candidate did better with minority voters. The argument unintentionally becomes "Those voters will fall in line for whoever, but we should cater to the independents."

That's a rough message, and it's not going to play well in a country that's really only had 2 presidents ever pander to minorities in a way that gave them agency. Like, one of the things people level at Bill on crime reform is that it ended up hurting black people. But the thing is, black people were looking for laws like that, and so the choice becomes: "Do you ignore them for their own good, or let them decide what's best for them?" The former happened for centuries, and the Clintons (and Obama) offered the latter. That was a big shift, and it's a little regressive on racial issues (accidentally, of course).
Click to expand...

That's a great point that I hadn't considered. Forgive me for being less sensitive in earlier posts about the GE, especially when considering potential VP picks.
 
C

Crayons

Banned
Valhelm said:
I think we ought to spent more time looking at why these people are racist, and how we can change it. The white poor don't need to be the enemies of progressives.



That's a great point that I hadn't considered. Forgive me for being less sensitive in earlier posts about the GE, especially when considering potential VP picks.
Click to expand...

They don't want to become a minority in the US, which really says something about how minorities are treated in this country tbh
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
I don't think poor white people are any more racist than middle class or rich white people if you control for levels of segregation. Poor white people are just the easiest white targets for Dems to possibly get so their racism gets talked about more. They're really racist, but most white dudes are.

Almost no white people have black friends so white people have these fantasy ideas about what black people are really like. There needs to be less segregation in America to reduce racism.
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
I don't think poor white people are any more racist than middle class or rich white people if you control for levels of segregation. Poor white people are just the easiest white targets for Dems to possibly get so their racism gets talked about more. They're really racist, but most white dudes are.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think Ta-Nehisi Coates' elegant/inelegant racism has serious class implications.

Poor whites are still poor, which means they suffer. While many of them are horribly racist, a lot aren't, and they deserve to be served somewhat better by our political system.
 
C

Crocodile

Member
I literally can't make a word out of what this Sanders delegate is saying on Maddow. Not a thing she said has made sense to me. I'm mostly hearing buzzwords. Could anyone else make sense of that?

Valhelm said:
Yeah, I'm not going to continue. You're right that I'm being difficult, and racism and misogyny probably both played a bigger role in Sanders' WV win than I'd like to admit. Bernie Sanders really shouldn't be running at this point, and it's shameful that he hasn't properly condemned his aggressive supporters in Nevada. But I believe he's done some amazing good for this country, and it bothers me hugely to see him described by so many Clinton supporters as some kind of closet conservative who's actually to the right of Clinton, the politician who has earned over $23 million speaking before financial institutions and seeks to reform that industry (which her own daughter once worked in) through soft regulations that still leave the control of our economy in the hands of very few people who work for profit rather than the welfare of our people.

Bernie Sanders is the first politician in recent memory to seriously challenge the growing issue of wealth disparity, and critique the entrenchment of poverty and corporate power within our nation. I think Obama was a more-than-decent president, but Americans deserve somebody who is truly progressive when it comes to class struggle. While the Republicans are obviously incomparably worse, the Democratic party is still a party which broadly supports lasseiz-faire capitalism, and until this changes the working people are going to suffer.

I never expected him to get nearly as far as he did, and I think his contribution to our country has been valuable. To demonize Bernie Sanders like this is disingenuous, and while I recognize that Clinton has been subject to even more false attacks and mischaracterizations, that doesn't make this mistreatment of Bernie Sanders acceptable. It's not uncommon on Gaf to see Bernie be treated as a reactionary, which is hugely dishonest. His economic goals are revolutionary when compared to any other American politician, and this ought to be recognized. Even if you prefer Hillary Clinton as a candidate, Sanders' ability to bypass the vestiges of the Red Scare and change the conversation of labor in ways not since since the 1930s is groundbreaking.



I wasn't familiar with those comments, so I assumed you meant West's critique of Obama's foreign policy. My mistake.



Many working class white people are racist, but they still suffer under poverty, and aren't beyond saving. Whites in the Old South were, in their own subtle way, hurt by the slave system, but they were hoodwinked by rich white people into supporting slavery. While slavery might not exist, the same principles are in place: "Go along with my agenda, because it makes you better than the black or brown person next door." Trump is just one of so many wealthy conservatives who exploits racial differences to divide the working class and gain support.

I don't believe racism is natural, especially if we compare the US to historically more harmonious multiethnic societies. So much of the reason why racism is entrenched is because the perpetuation of racism perpetuates the elite. Interracial marriage was only made illegal due to the fear of poor white and poor black people uniting . While poor white people have traditionally been the lapdogs of racism, they aren't the reason why racism is so entrenched.
Click to expand...

A) Income inequality has been an issue important to the Democratic Party for as long as I have been politically active/aware. Bernie isn't the first to bring this issue to light at all. The issue is that his message has been problematically simplistic ("break up the banks" - whatever that means), vague in how it would accomplish its goal and doesn't seem to factor into account how difficult such policies would be able to implement in this political environment.

B) People on GAF only really turned sour on Sanders when his tone and rhetoric turned for the worst near/after New York. He stopped being a message candidate and many of his policy deficiencies were really exposed.

C) Any fundamental understanding of American history and politics that puts class above race is just straight up wrong. They are interconnected of course but this country was straight up built on the back of slaves (and the corpses of Native Americans), we had a Civil War over race, our politics (Dems vs Repubs, etc.) are defined by race.
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
This basically explains 40% of American politics at the very least:

black-friends-white-friends.jpg


In fact, PRRI's data show that a full 75 percent of whites have "entirely white social networks without any minority presence." The same holds true for slightly less than two-thirds of black Americans.
Click to expand...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
 
V

VRMN

Member
Y2Kev said:
you don't get in gaf
you get on gaf

I hate this "apparent winner" thing. WTF is that. Either you won or you didn't.
Click to expand...

They did explain it when they put up the call. That she won, but they're covering their asses in case they screwed up reporting the vote and the result changes due to that at certification.
 
M

Makai

Member
NYCMetsfan said:
So I got drunk chilling with Wyatt cynac again last night(not like drunk drunk because its 8am and totally not hungover). Friend embarrassed me by constantly bringing up the daily show. Dude hasn't been on the show for like 4 years... and was clearly pissed.

B-dubs and makai (and any other nyc poligafers) you should come next week to his show. 5 bucks.
Click to expand...
ok
 
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