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PoliGAF 2016 |OT6| Delete your accounts
- Thread starter Spoiled Milk
- Start date
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Person A: "Person C is doing a bad thing"
Person B: "So? Person D did a similar things so its ok!"
Person A: "Who said what Person D did was also ok?"
"Well they did it too!" is like a middle school level argument. Putting aside the substantive differences between the 08 and 16 primaries, which get explained over and over again but seem to get ignored over and over again, just because someone did stuff we all recognize as dumb doesn't mean everybody else gets to do the same stuff sans critique. Like if you just want to say "everything worked out in the end last time so don't worry" I don't think there's much wrong with that (and I still feel that the most likely outcome) but we aren't at that point yet and I'm not clairvoyant so I can't be 100% sure it would play out the same way (especially due to the differences in the primary seasons). So excuse me for being frustrated and concerned.
Do you or anyone else have any examples of someone who praised Clinton for her actions and comments back at the end of the 08 primary but are critical of Bernie now? You can't imagine a hypocrisy, you actually have to demonstrate it. I'm 100% sure such people exist but I don't think they actually post here. The sentiment I have is that most of the people posting in this thread were on #TeamObama last time not #TeamClinton.
Person B: "So? Person D did a similar things so its ok!"
Person A: "Who said what Person D did was also ok?"
"Well they did it too!" is like a middle school level argument. Putting aside the substantive differences between the 08 and 16 primaries, which get explained over and over again but seem to get ignored over and over again, just because someone did stuff we all recognize as dumb doesn't mean everybody else gets to do the same stuff sans critique. Like if you just want to say "everything worked out in the end last time so don't worry" I don't think there's much wrong with that (and I still feel that the most likely outcome) but we aren't at that point yet and I'm not clairvoyant so I can't be 100% sure it would play out the same way (especially due to the differences in the primary seasons). So excuse me for being frustrated and concerned.
Do you or anyone else have any examples of someone who praised Clinton for her actions and comments back at the end of the 08 primary but are critical of Bernie now? You can't imagine a hypocrisy, you actually have to demonstrate it. I'm 100% sure such people exist but I don't think they actually post here. The sentiment I have is that most of the people posting in this thread were on #TeamObama last time not #TeamClinton.
Ok, if someone didn't support Clinton staying in 2008, I'll call it "bad judgment" instead of "hypocrisy." Happy? You guys can be so nitpicky.
You're getting into silly semantic territory, but no, I did not assume that. Her supporters today should have been ok with her staying in the race in 2008, regardless if they supported her then or not.
Anyway, I've never seen a poll showing that most Sanders supporters would vote Trump over Clinton. Until then, I'm not too worried. Latest number I saw was that Sanders supporters would back Clinton over Trump at a rate of 86 to 10. Not even close to how bad it was in 2008.
This was after Clinton had ended her campaign and Obama was the presumptive nominee. People go on and on about how 2016 is different because of the anti-party rhetoric from Sanders, but why is that not reflected in the numbers then?
You're getting into silly semantic territory, but no, I did not assume that. Her supporters today should have been ok with her staying in the race in 2008, regardless if they supported her then or not.
Anyway, I've never seen a poll showing that most Sanders supporters would vote Trump over Clinton. Until then, I'm not too worried. Latest number I saw was that Sanders supporters would back Clinton over Trump at a rate of 86 to 10. Not even close to how bad it was in 2008.
This was after Clinton had ended her campaign and Obama was the presumptive nominee. People go on and on about how 2016 is different because of the anti-party rhetoric from Sanders, but why is that not reflected in the numbers then?
User 463088
Banned
A) Bernie has managed to give Trump some attack lines
B) The argument "But....Hillary" is crap. Just because Hillary said some things she probably shouldn't have doesn't mean Bernie should be doing the same thing. To pretend that Hillary 08's sway within the party is comparable to Bernie's sway '16 is, in my opinion, laughable. Hillary partisans in 2008 were reliable Democrats. PUMA was stupid, and never going to be a thing. We were all going to support the nominee because Hillary didn't spend a year and a half slamming the Democratic party!
C) This is a divide that he has created. I don't think it was there outside the far, far left. Bernie has legitimized the more insane thoughts surrounding corruption and stuff that simply doesn't exist outside the minds of TYT.
Box of Kittens
Banned
You're conflating Hillary 2016 supporters with Hillary 2008 supporters here. Those are two different, albeit overlapping, groups (now's the time for a Venn diagram).
Beyond that, while many people do want Bernie to drop out, I think more of the anger tends to be at how he's conducted his campaign. People object to the complaints of rigging, or the seeming unwillingness to call out harassment in any meaningful way and without a "but" more so than his mere presence in the race.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Why is it bad judgment? Even if it's not hurting Hillary's chances in any substantial way (or she didn't hurt his), what benefit does either have? Are Bernie supporters getting *more* favorable to Hillary the longer he stays in? Are they likely to stay home if he doesn't stay in to the bitter end instead of saying "we fought a good hard fight but lost" today instead of next month? Is having protests outside the convention good for people who support Hillary?
I'm trying to wrap my head around why I'd want the primary process to last a single day longer than necessary. I only see downside. Financial downside, dropping poll numbers, a later start to the general campaigning. I can see the benefit from a Bernie supporter's perspective, but not otherwise. I don't get it.
User 463088
Banned
Yes, yes you do! /s
I was a Hillary 08 supporter. I stayed with her until the end....even though I knew she wasn't going to be the nominee. Did I think she should have dropped out earlier? Ya. She should have. Totally. Did I think her actions were damaging to the party (not just Obama) in the same way that Bernie is? Not even remotely. Hillary was also never as far behind as Bernie is. The two aren't comparable.
Do I wish she hadn't said some of the things she said in 2008? Obviously. Do I think that that gives Bernie a free pass to say whatever he wants, do whatever he wants, and lob grenades wherever he wants? Hell no!
What? This is not complicated. My point is that Clinton, defending herself in 2008, was correct. Her staying in 2008 proved to be inconsequential. It was silly to make a fuss over it then. We should learn from the past and not fuss over silly things.
You can go on and on about the anti-party rhetoric all you want, but if that's such a game changer this time around, how come it's not reflected in this poll?
"a poll out from CNN on Wednesday finds [Sanders supporters] prefer Clinton to Trump by an 86-to-10 margin."
Fenderputty
Banned
He was kinda cute though.
Considering the only difference would be one or two delegates Enten is pretty much on the money. They didn't contest Missouri, why contest Kentucky?
A) The bolded legitimately doesn't make sense. Huh?
B) We know the PUMAs ended up being a non-issue because we live 8 years in the future and know Clinton worked her ASS off to get them on board. Since, again, none of us are clairvoyant we don't know if Sanders will do the same. Also blah blah young independents vs stalwart democrats blah blah.
I feel like people are we too willing to play up the similarities between the 08 and 16 primaries and not acknowledge the differences. The outcomes may be the same and probably have a strong likelyhood of being the same but we don't know that.
Box of Kittens
Banned
It's possible to think that Clinton will beat Trump and still object to the way the Sanders campaign is operating right now. Like I object to a lot of the stuff he says about the primary process being rigged because it's not true and because it's enabling harassment. It's not just about this election.
aspiegamer
Member
Black Republican
Member
the fight continues!
Jack Remington
Banned
So 100% turnout in caucus states that Bernie won?
Hillary has about 13 million total votes which include wins in states like New York, Florida and Pennsylvania, but Bernie would get 5 million votes out of Washington if they held a primary?
Aaron Strife
Banned
Incidentally, Washington is having a nonbinding primary today. There was some suggestion that Hillary might win it, although it's meaningless.
The 86:10 poll was done in May, so you can't necessarily argue that it's debunked by the outdated March poll. Even then, we're still at:
- 33% Sanders supporters against Clinton in March (while Sanders is still in the race -- back then Trump wasn't guaranteed and Sanders chances were higher too)
- 54% of Clinton supporters against Obama in July (after she dropped out)
Again, I'll start worrying when things get at least as bad as 2008. We're definitely not there yet.
But, as Cybit and _JP have pointed out, we already know from 2008 that most of those people are misinformed about their own intentions.
People who say they'll vote for Sanders but not for Clinton are clearly politically engaged and attentive -- they're just in the middle of a political environment that tells them to be fickle!
When the political environment changes they will probably change as well.
Sirpopopop
Member
I've noticed a lot of Bernie supporters are now resorting to 'concern trolling.' Maybe reality is setting in finally?
Aaron Strife
Banned
I'm just asking questions.
There's no way Hillary wins it. It'll be a similar margin to Oregon.
Beer Monkey
Member
I'd be very concerned if the superdelegates gave the nom to Bernie. How does the Democratic party effectively disenfranchise the non-white voters who voted for Hillary 4 to 1? Without destroying itself?
There'd be cause for real concern if Bernie got what he wants.
There'd be cause for real concern if Bernie got what he wants.
nature boy
Member
What a cry baby.
Wapo asking Trump about the veterans money.
Wapo asking Trump about the veterans money.
Knuckle Sandwich
Member
Huh... So Bill Clinton spoke at my alma mater yesterday and I'm just finding out now lol. Dang. Woulda gone if I knew. There was even a pro bernie protest! http://www.fresnobee.com/news/politics-government/election/article79294582.html
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
What a cry baby.
Wapo asking Trump about the veterans money.
This is why Trump will lose (with a million other reasons). The press won't accept being talked to like this, despite how much they love the horserace narrative.
Abinash117
Member
After Hillary wins the nomination and the presidency I going to think a lot of people is going to credit her accomplishments to Bernie for making her more liberal despite her being that way all the long. I don't think some people even know what her policies she is even running one. Going to be interesting on how Bernie supporters react to him losing officially and if he loses Cali.
Why does Trump constantly repeat himself , even in the same sentences?
Why does Trump constantly repeat himself , even in the same sentences?
Aaron Strife
Banned
One thing that might help her is it's an all-candidate jungle primary.
Might be different seeing Hillary's name against Trump than just against Bernie.
lol this guy. I really hope as the GE unfolds that Hillary isn't the one to gain the "secretive shady" description because holy shit.What a cry baby.
Wapo asking Trump about the veterans money.
User 463088
Banned
Parts of California are more southern than Virginia...therefore, it doesn't count! It's really a red state. Fraud!
Jack Remington
Banned
I hate that fucking "never support Clinton" bullshit. Just say you won't. Not like there will be another opportunity if she loses. Unless you're clarifying that if she wins, you won't support her reelection in 2020.
It comes off as so petty and childish.
It comes off as so petty and childish.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Can't wait for her to actually achieve things in office and people will still claim that she doesn't mean it.
"Well she passed immigration reform, the Equality Act and made college debt-free, and her Supreme Court overturned Citizens United after she reauthorized McCain-Feingold, but you know she's just pandering!"
whyamihere
Banned
Trump even made a video this morning about the vet money. He's not letting it go, which is dumb, because he didn't actually give any of that money to vet groups as far as we know.
He really isn't very good at this.
He really isn't very good at this.
Fenderputty
Banned
San Diego does slant right.
For me it's just watching all the damn freaking out about "OMG BERNIE IS GONNA HURT CLINTON HE IS THE WORSTEST" bullshit. Seriously? Clinton did the same thing in 2008, people (I guess? Wasn't on GAF) overreacted / didn't overreact, June came, and after the convention, everything was freaking fine.
Cue 2016: Bernie's influence is "toxic"; he's a hostage-taker, egomaniac, etc etc. Same (or different) dumb arguments being made, like 2016 is somehow magically different.
FFS - Donald Freaking Trump is coalescing the GOP around him. If Trump can coalesce the GOP around him and Clinton can't coalesce the Dems around her - that's ALL on Clinton at that point. Trump's been called a xenophobic religious bigot by people in his own party who are now coalescing around him. Just like everyone was absolutely sure (tm) this time would be different with Trump and #NeverTrump and the GOP wouldn't go around him...yet here we are.
This place turned into everything it (rightfully at the time) made fun of in terms of SandersReddit or whatnot. It's not hypocrisy or what not - it's the Chicken Little'ing (and then posting upon said panic) that frustrates me. The worst case scenario is that all the panic ends up creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. Something we were aware of in 2008 (and hence why we didn't really say anything about PUMA threatening Clinton supporters)
Bunch of other responses since I started this post - so I'll try to answer them
@Crocodile - the problem this entire primary process is that everyone keeps trying to think it was different than 2008 on the dem side, and it hasn't been. Because everyone is freaking out over "OMG IT MIGHT BE DIFFERENT"; they're trying to act in different (and more irrational and long-term damaging ways) and generate a self-fulfilling prophecy.
@adam - at this point in the primary, the percentages of Clinton winning were the same as Sanders now. Obama clinched on June 3rd, 2008 - Clinton will most likely clinch on June 7th 2008 (clinch being delegate + super delegate sum passing the magic #). Clinton was closer in delegate count, but her chances of catching Obama were similarly at a functional zero. It's like being down 20 with 2 minutes remaining versus being down 30 with two minutes remaining. It was over.
@Ignatz - The GOP primary process (and Dem primary process from 2000 & 2004) should give a good indicator as to what happens when you coalesce TOO quickly around a candidate with what feels like external pressure. Major, important subdivisions within your party start to feel disengaged and unwanted, and if you lose a couple of elections in a row - will usually feel the need and right to be much more forceful about their interjection. Because they never got a chance to have their viewpoint go till the end, so the "unknown" drives them
This is one thing I'm really looking forward to. Gonna be soooo damn good to see folks tap-dancing around, trying to offer explanations for why she still has suspicious motives on her left-leaning decisions.
Aaron Strife
Banned
People often conflate "This might happen" (1% chance) with "This will happen" (99% chance).
"Bernie could win California" becomes "Bernie is going to win California and he'll win every delegate and become the nominee."
As soon as people start convincing themselves something has a reasonable chance of occurring they'll start counting on it.
Can't wait for 6/7 when people cozy in expecting a long night only for news networks to call the whole shebang for Hillary as soon as Jersey comes in.
Start out like
End up like
"Bernie could win California" becomes "Bernie is going to win California and he'll win every delegate and become the nominee."
As soon as people start convincing themselves something has a reasonable chance of occurring they'll start counting on it.
Can't wait for 6/7 when people cozy in expecting a long night only for news networks to call the whole shebang for Hillary as soon as Jersey comes in.
Start out like
End up like
nature boy
Member
Yeah you think if he did donate he would brag about it all day long.
To clarify those quotes are from earlier this month, when he hanged up about "John Miller".
god I can't wait till we as a society get past selfies
Yeah, I mostly agree with this. I think people have started to get pretty, uh, intense as this goes on.
Everything is going to be fine. Bernie is going to get some stuff. He's going to go to the convention and endorse Hillary. Hillary will win the presidency and turn out to be pretty progressive. Nobody is going to remember that and we'll have all the same conversations in 2020, then Paul Ryan will become president and get impeached. It's going to be okay!
Oh man, please tell me it'll be on something juicy..
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
What a cry baby.
Wapo asking Trump about the veterans money.
This is a thing that he should be pushed on until we see the receipts. His defensiveness is incredible.
Box of Kittens
Banned
It doesn't matter anyway. We should hand the nomination to Bernie because of his crossover appeal.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
This Pedigo guy is a total fraud.
Paltheos
Member
A speech tactic that convinces our tiny, monkey brains that he knows what he's talking about.
He has a secret gay family.
Box of Kittens
Banned
Please. We're all on a first name basis with Tyler around here. Besides, didn't you hear he called Michigan? That man is a genius. It's the retroactive momentum variable that does the trick.
Lord_Byron28
Member
Yeah speaking as someone who has regularly visited the Poligaf community for years, in the past few months things have taken a really dark turn on here.
At the end of the day most polling seems to indicate it's only 1 in 5 Sanders supporters that say they will switch their vote to Trump over the democratic nominee if Sanders loses. On top of that Sanders has been vigorously attacking Trump since the start of his campaign. Regardless of anything Sanders has always made it clear from day 1 that Trump is a much worse candidate than Clinton.
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