A Link to the Past
Banned
Stop being ridiculous. The appropriate course of action is to tell oppressed people that they're bringing this most recent bout of oppression onto themselves.
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PoliGAF 2016 |OT9| The Wrath of Khan!
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Stop being ridiculous. The appropriate course of action is to tell oppressed people that they're bringing this most recent bout of oppression onto themselves.
If you want to hook up with a guy, it is not difficult to find one most places in the western world.
Shaming gay sexuality is something that is going to immediately trigger a reaction from people who've had to deal with that all their lives. The article serves no purpose other than to single out those "hypersexual" (aka normal athletic male) gay men, shame them, and accidentally out them.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
I never said it was their "fault" that word contains an excuse for the victimizers which is different than someone faciliating something. Grinder isn't private. Anyone could do this.
They outed themselves to anyone on the app and in Rio (and globally for tinder with tinder plus)
If I go in a public square and reveal something then it's not secret. This is why I know what I'm posting to twitter because it's not private. This isnt private emails. This is literally a billboard, there is no expectation of privacy (I'm speaking exclusively of the profile not the messages which is private)
Im arguing for public education about this. Otherwise were just sticking our heads in the sand about a problem of people not realizing what they're doing I don't want people outed.
There have been multiple reports of this happening in Russia and catfishing is a real thing. People need to be safe and if we can't talk about people protecting themselves without feeling were blaming someone then were not gonna stop this problem.
A Link to the Past
Banned
That's fucking absurd. They're not "advertising it for the world", they're not announcing it in the town square, they're going to lengths to keep it on the down-low but still satisfy the inherent need for sex that all humans have. Like, that is legitimately an ignorant thing to say.
But I mean you make a good point - how awful is it that they were trying to have consensual sex and come from a country that criminalizes such a thing.
Seriously, your belief system is incredibly shitty. It's no better than when the judge told a woman that she could have avoided being raped by a police officer if she didn't go to the bar where he assaulted her.
But I mean you make a good point - how awful is it that they were trying to have consensual sex and come from a country that criminalizes such a thing.
Seriously, your belief system is incredibly shitty. It's no better than when the judge told a woman that she could have avoided being raped by a police officer if she didn't go to the bar where he assaulted her.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
This isn't an either or.
This type of outing happens all the time in Russia and I believe there have been other issues of consent with reporting on dating apps (there was an OKCupid data 'leak')
Idk why we pretend that crime prevention is victim blaming. This doesn't blame the victim it's to prevent future crimes by learning from mistakes
Well god knows that's more likely than straight people stopping invading queer spaces, and other people justifying their invasion.
Also, not saying it was their fault is all very well, but what you said clearly implied that it was. You don't get to get away with dog whistles like that.
You disgust me, you really do. The sort of "ally" who will look for any excuse to blame oppression of queer people on their own actions is no ally at all.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
Basically. Victim blaming is not a good look.
A Link to the Past
Banned
You must be able to demonstrate a viable alternative for these athletes to have sex with someone then. Can you?
AntraxSuicide
Banned
To be clear, this is exactly what bad cops do to women who've been date raped. "Just saying, if you didn't get drunk, it wouldn't have happened."
NYCmetsfan
Banned
That's exactly what they are doing. Anyone can get this information.
The government literally has a website about this
https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndga/protecting-yourself-while-using-internet
A Link to the Past
Banned
Can you present to us, then, your alternative for them?
NYCmetsfan
Banned
No it's absolutely not.
User 463088
Banned
I'm with CCS on this 100%.
Of course this information can be obtained. However, there is no excuse for a supposed legitimate news outlet to go about outing people like this. For many queer people, these are the only safe spaces they may ever be in. To try and push off any ounce of responsibility on them is not okay with me.
Of course this information can be obtained. However, there is no excuse for a supposed legitimate news outlet to go about outing people like this. For many queer people, these are the only safe spaces they may ever be in. To try and push off any ounce of responsibility on them is not okay with me.
I mean, the entire concept of the article is offensive trash. Even if that journalist didn't "accidentally" (bullshit) out athletes, what the fuck is the point of it? THIS JUST IN: GAY ATHLETES HAVE SEX.
It's the trivialization of gay sexuality that people still think is just so cool. I mean, would the straight equivalent of a "athletes have sex" article even be written? It would be a waste of time.
It's the trivialization of gay sexuality that people still think is just so cool. I mean, would the straight equivalent of a "athletes have sex" article even be written? It would be a waste of time.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Well, that's a convincing argument if I ever did see one. Turns out, this discussion of one person versus everyone else is a case where everyone but that one person is wrong! No way that NYCmetsfan just has super problematic views and doesn't understand why they're problematic.
User 463088
Banned
Your argument is if they didn't want to be outed, they shouldn't have been on the app! That's not very much removed from "If she didn't want to be raped, she shouldn't have worn that dress" territory to me.
Going on an app simply means they want to meet someone to chill or have sex or smoke a blunt. Whatever. It is not a blanket permission for someone to out them. It's just not, man.
Beer Monkey
Member
I don't think Hillary can save Strickland, even though I always have voted for him. Portman has gotten several of the key union endorsements, and he's perennially popular. Plus Strickland doesn't have much of a personality, unfortunately.
Supa Necta
Banned
Es muy caliente.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
I don't know! Everything they likely can do carries some inherent risk which is why homophobia is so insidiously evil. It prevents people from being themselves without risk. That's fucked up.
The issue isn't them it's the bad actors who will always be.
But with thing like grinder they forget they're taking a risk. And I think people should remember that.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Y'know, I don't find myself getting mad about Republicans/conservatives saying awful things. When allies do it? It gets my blood boiling. At least the former has the good sense to be honest about it.
You come into this thread, decrying people for calling the journalist evil, blaming the outing of these athletes on the athletes themselves.
Ah, so what you're saying is that they are partly to blame because they want to exercise a basic human right
No, keep going, how many other human rights should these athletes give up in order to protect themselves? How many human rights do YOU give up to protect yourself?
And you said earlier that your statement is nothing like "don't want to get raped, don't get drunk", and yet getting drunk is more dangerous than having a profile on Grinder! If all you can say is "there's a risk, then how are you any different from rape apologists? If risk is enough, wouldn't you also be arguing that women are partly to blame for getting drunk and being sexually assaulted?
You come into this thread, decrying people for calling the journalist evil, blaming the outing of these athletes on the athletes themselves.
Ah, so what you're saying is that they are partly to blame because they want to exercise a basic human right
No, keep going, how many other human rights should these athletes give up in order to protect themselves? How many human rights do YOU give up to protect yourself?
And you said earlier that your statement is nothing like "don't want to get raped, don't get drunk", and yet getting drunk is more dangerous than having a profile on Grinder! If all you can say is "there's a risk, then how are you any different from rape apologists? If risk is enough, wouldn't you also be arguing that women are partly to blame for getting drunk and being sexually assaulted?
A Link to the Past
Banned
NYCmetsfan
Banned
I have never argued this nor do I believe it.
I think it's more equivalent to saying "went your in Rio be aware of pick pockets and protect your belongings" when people tell mugging stories people freely talk about ways to prevent that with out them being called apologists for muggers. (who are just as bad if the victim made it easier or not)
The rape example is intentionally provocative. To act like I'm saying they are to blame. Which again has in implicit excuse which I'm not giving and won't. The guy fucked up and did a wrong he shouldn't have.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
How are you arguing that "you shouldn't have worn that or gotten drunk" is different from "crime prevention means learning from past mistakes? "
It's the same fucking thing.
User 463088
Banned
I mean, I understand what you're saying, intellectually. But there's a reason a lot of us are having a very visceral reaction to your point.
LGBT people live with this fear every single day. There's almost nothing that we do that doesn't involve the fear of being outed against our will, or of being targeted by bad actors. To say that we don't understand inherent risk for just being ourselves is...it's just not something any gay person doesn't understand. We get it.
"When women go out on their own and get drunk they're taking a risk. And I think people should remember that."
"When black teenagers walk up to a police officer at night they're taking a risk. And I think people should remember that."
See how shitty it sounds?
A Link to the Past
Banned
AntraxSuicide
Banned
Dr. Jill Stein
Dr. Jill Stein Verified account ‏@DrJillStein
Clinton has spent $6M+ on online operatives to deceive & divide progressives. Know their tricks & don't be bullied! http://ow.ly/XZB83039VLM
Dr. Jill Stein Verified account ‏@DrJillStein
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User 463088
Banned
Please don't think I'm trying to pile on.
But *I* need to make sure you understand where I think a lot of us are coming from. The type of stuff you're saying...we all know it. Every gay person knows the risks of simply existing. This isn't news to us. It's not like we just woke up in a world where, suddenly, we're not safe. We live with the fear and the bullshit. I can only imagine how much worse it is for people in countries that don't have it as good as we do. But, there's still a line that should never be crossed. And this guy crossed a fucking big line.
There's a reason a lot of us are reacting like we are. It's not because we don't understand what you're saying. It's because we've heard what you're saying (or the gist of it) way more times than we want to remember.
"I guess those gays and transfolk down at that Stonewall Inn place just shouldn't have been there."
I mean, in a purely technical sense it's...well, duh? Most gays are aware of the fact that, even though these sites/apps are considered safe spaces, they are still public forums and with that comes some risk. That's why most profile pictures on these things are taken from the neck down (or waist down....yaaasss).
But that does not grant permission for someone to invade what ARE largely considered safe spaces specifically for the purposes of causing harm to those people without being considered literal shit-stains worthy of derision. I mean, this isn't difficult.
I mean, in a purely technical sense it's...well, duh? Most gays are aware of the fact that, even though these sites/apps are considered safe spaces, they are still public forums and with that comes some risk. That's why most profile pictures on these things are taken from the neck down (or waist down....yaaasss).
But that does not grant permission for someone to invade what ARE largely considered safe spaces specifically for the purposes of causing harm to those people without being considered literal shit-stains worthy of derision. I mean, this isn't difficult.
balladofwindfishes
Member
I like how her fans on the internet always pull this.
"Jill Stein is an anti-science wacko, here's a list of reasons why"
"Shut up u CTR shill. Do they pay you in doritos lulz ownd"
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Yes it sounds shitty, because it's intentionally trying to pit me as an apologist for the wrong action which I never did.
But every mother tells her daughter to be aware of this when they get to a certain age, "the talk" is a thing among minorities.
I understand that there is a tone issue (I'm seen as deflecting away from the outing and the homophobia and threat these people now face and emotional aspect and this is completely justified. I just like to think people don't think I'm forgetting those things by not having them front and center. They are real and likely a larger issue.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Does a mother sit down with her daughter, who has just been raped, and say "well, you know, I DID say that this dress was a little slutty..."
Thequietone
Member
I wasn't going to post anymore about this, but the problem with some heterosexual allies is that they don't know what it is like to live in fear of being outed. I'm not speaking of anyone in particular here. It's just a terrifying experience and cannot be described to those who haven't felt it before. Yes, the athletes took a risk by making a Grindr profile but that doesn't mean they should stay hidden and live in fear while denying who they are. They shouldn't have to give up this right.
It's the same with rape victims. They say well you shouldn't have drank alcohol, took drugs, went to that party, wore that dress, walk alone at night, or go to that neighborhood. They shouldn't have to give up those rights. Better yet, how about the rapists or homophobes leave them alone? Why don't we teach everyone that those fears or actions are unacceptable? It is never acceptable to victim blame either. It reinforces the idea that you don't have a right to do those things without the risk of consequences when there shouldn't be any.
It's the same with rape victims. They say well you shouldn't have drank alcohol, took drugs, went to that party, wore that dress, walk alone at night, or go to that neighborhood. They shouldn't have to give up those rights. Better yet, how about the rapists or homophobes leave them alone? Why don't we teach everyone that those fears or actions are unacceptable? It is never acceptable to victim blame either. It reinforces the idea that you don't have a right to do those things without the risk of consequences when there shouldn't be any.
BlastProcessing
Member
I am honestly flabbergasted that you would stake out and defend such a disgusting, regressive position. I suggest you take a break.
I mean, there's way of writing the article without exposing anyone. There's gay Olympians that are out, you get one to say, "Yea, a lot of people use Grindr, just like Tindr, and for some of these competitors this is literally their only chance to be who they really are because of the countries they come from." You get that quote, you get some usage statistics from Grindr, maybe a quote from them about the uptick due to the Olympics, and you've got the article.
There's literally no need to even download the app, let alone open it.
There's literally no need to even download the app, let alone open it.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
I've literally not said this at all.
A Link to the Past
Banned
The worst part to me is that he has taken the victim route himself, getting defensive about the comparisons between what he said and what rape-victim blamer would often say. It can't be that people are legitimately seeing the comparison, it just needs to be Godwin's Law.
*ahem*
"It does to the vitriol against the writer as some short of evil dude who tried to harm people. "
"They didn't intentionally out people. They wrote a story that people want to read and were careless in not realizing vague details would get picked up on be internet detectives. "
"I have major issues with a reporter publicising his encounters and some of the homophobia but people need to stop treating these things as "private" when they reveal personal information publicly."
"(which I don't think this writer is btw, his an idiot who didn't think things through)"
You've been apologizing and downplaying his actions since your first post.
I have no trouble believing that. The character he plays is just way too stupid to be as successful as Hannity has become.
But when you waste even a single second pointing out the super duper obvious, then that's what you're supporting, and it's why the reaction to your post has been so firm.
User 85168
Banned
Going for 0%
User 463088
Banned
I don't even understand the purpose of the article.
Of course people are boning at the Olympics! This is not new or surprising information. No one didn't know this already.
Assholes did the same thing about the RNC in Cleveland. When there are people that are on vacation or grouping in a different way...of course people are going to be hooking up. How is this "journalism" and how you defend those actions as journalistic practice is beyond me.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
I mean, you can use an article like this to bring more exposure to the fact that in many countries there are laws against LGBTQ people being who they are, in many cases they'd be killed for being who they are, and the Olympics give them a place where they can be themselves for a month. Done properly, you can shine a light on human rights abuses across the world. You'd just use this as a frame story to really tell a story about something else and get people to read it. That said outing people is not OK at all, there's ways to do this and protect people's privacy.
I'm not defending what these guys did, it's beyond the pale, just saying if they wanted to write this article they could have done it without exposing a single person.
Do you know how much dick I got at the Christian Youth Convention i went to at 18?
It's practically the "other" thing large scale out-of-town gatherings are for for some people. If this were a straight article it would be a complete waste of time because people fucking is not news. Which is why I believe the outing was the whole point, and this journalist can go kick rocks.
Because heterosexual men and women don't really grasp just how much their system exists as a result of interactions between two very different groups (M/F). When you remove one gender from the equation completely, you get two very different sets of preferences and norms w/ M/M and F/F relationships and sex.
User 463088
Banned
I see what you're saying. But, even that type of article, is going to focus on the sex aspect rather than the other dimensions of being gay. It's what gets a lot of people caught up, I think. Most of these types of articles (and I've seen a lot even those that don't out people) are more about OMG GUIS TEH GAY ATHLETES!
An article from your perspective would be welcome. I just don't think Grindr or whatever is necessary to find people to interview. (And I know that's not what you're saying.
)eBay Huckster
Member
hell, getting laid is practically a third of what i've ever done at
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