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PoliGAF 2016 |OT9| The Wrath of Khan!

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kess

Member
There are some people who most likely have more mercury in their teeth and get more from their seafood than they do from vaccines. Those people don't have autism.

It doesn't help that quack literature out there erroneously claims thiomersol is still used in vaccines, and furthermore, claim that cleanliness negates the need for a vaccination schedule.If you dig past the mercury issue, the next issue that people will bring up is that administering vaccines are trauma. My friend's sister-in-law decided not to immunize their kid based on this shit, and not surprisingly, a lot of these feelings are informed from Alex Jones.

Interestingly enough, this is an issue where the generational gap in the baby boomers makes itself rather clear. The first wave of boomers are just old enough to remember the polio scares of the early 50s, and they have, for the most part, exceeded the life expectancy of their parents.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Most of the fallout from Chernobyl, Ukraine went north to Belarus. Of course, the Belarusian people had nothing to do with the mistake made by the USSR in Ukraine, but they were the people who were affected the most. The USSR didn't even own up to their mistake until days later, when workers in Sweden noticed their geiger counters were going off. Radiation spreads. Some third world country's piss poor nuclear energy program is underregulated and they have an accident. We all share the same air, the same land, the same water. Molecules don't know what borders are. It poisons us all. I don't see nuclear energy as a long term solution, and want it phased out. Not just in the US, but globally. US should set an example. It doesn't have to be immediately, but don't make any new ones, and phase them out over time as we switch to better alternative energy methods.

Whatever, I'm a hippie, make fun of me.

Safety mechanisms and regulations have come a long way in the last decade, we're all light years ahead of where Chernobyl was. The problem is that there are no better alternative energy methods right now, nothing even comes close to nuclear and won't for decades (that's if we get lucky).
 
I thought Trump didn't want their money!? Sad.
Yeah I didn't understand that. He directly solicits cash from people online and has for ages. We have that "bug" of being unable to cancel a monthly payment and everything. There's absolutely no way he doesn't know how much money people are giving him.
More people have died falling from roofs while installing solar panels in the US than in nuclear energy-related incidents.
Source of entirely unknown quantity that at least feels scientific-ish? It's an evaluation of many energy types.
http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2008/03/deaths-per-twh-for-all-energy-sources.html
 

bananas

Banned
While you aren't wrong, nuclear produces a lot of energy, it's safer than coal, and cleaner, the risk is still there. Nuclear disasters can still occur, and they're absolutely catastrophic. I'm not comfortable with them.
Not if the people operating it are fully trained and procedures are properly followed.

Trust me, you ain't gonna cause a meltdown by accident.
 

Crayons

Banned
Not if the people operating it are fully trained and procedures are properly followed.

Trust me, you ain't gonna cause a meltdown by accident.

And therein lies my concern - in the event that a demagogue like Trump (but could be anyone else, for that mater) was elected, and the nuclear industry becomes less regulated, corners are cut, stuff can happen.
 

pigeon

Banned
Not if the people operating it are fully trained and procedures are properly followed.

Trust me, you ain't gonna cause a meltdown by accident.

We literally just had an accidental meltdown like two years ago!

"Nothing will go wrong as long as nobody is super dumb" turns out to be a terrible argument in real life.
 
Complaining about the dangers of nuclear power without acknowledging the huge advances in technology and safety is like someone pretending that cars are as fundamentally dangerous today as they were in the 1960s. Yes, we absolutely should be aggressive in phasing out older models and designs, but that's a completely different argument from saying we shouldn't have them.

Anyone who doesn't think nuclear is a major and necessary player in combatting global warming doesn't understand the sheer scale of carbon energy expenditures that the world currently uses. This isn't a preference problem, this is an orders of magnitude numbers problem. The anti-nuclear position is naive at best and delusional at worst when it comes to realistic solutions to stopping global warming. You might as well ask that the entire first world stop using cars as their primary mode of transportation. Ideal, sure. Realistic in any sense of the word? Give me a break.
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
We should upgrade to much safer nuclear designs and start using reactors that eat weapons grade material as fuel. But we cant because we are so frozen by fear that the less obvious danger of coal and gas is just allowed to continue and we are years behind on testing and implimentation of newer designs.
 

hawk2025

Member

kess

Member
Chernobyl, IIRC, didn't even have a proper containment vessel, the reactor was designed for maximal power on the quick and cheap, and the reactors were known to be flawed even at construction. Modern reactor designs like the CANDU do not exhibit the extreme positive feedback loops that lead to the meltdown.

Atmospheric nuclear testing threw a lot of radiation over a greater area. Salvaged underwater steel prior to WW2 is valued for its lack of background radioactivity.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
Tuesday might be quite a day.


There are riots going on in Milwaukee because of a shooting.

Trump is doing an hour long special with Hannity in Milwaukee on Tuesday....
 

pigeon

Banned
I find all these posts about how obviously we need nuclear power and anybody who's worried about it is just dumb to be really tedious. It's frankly a disrespectful and arrogant argument pattern. Sometimes the reason people disagree with you is that you're wrong or you're communicating badly, not because they're obviously crazy.

I'll say it again, Fukushima happened in 2011, and the investigation found that, sure, the accident would have been preventable with proper safety and technology, but the plant operator just didn't bother. If you think that we should all feel super confident that nuclear accidents can never happen I think you're the one who's living in a fantasy world. Come up with a real justification for why this won't just keep happening.
 

bananas

Banned
And therein lies my concern - in the event that a demagogue like Trump (but could be anyone else, for that mater) was elected, and the nuclear industry becomes less regulated, corners are cut, stuff can happen.
I don't think that's a thing to be concerned about.
 

Crocodile

Member
I find all these posts about how obviously we need nuclear power and anybody who's worried about it is just dumb to be really tedious. It's frankly a disrespectful and arrogant argument pattern. Sometimes the reason people disagree with you is that you're wrong or you're communicating badly, not because they're obviously crazy.

I'll say it again, Fukushima happened in 2011, and the investigation found that, sure, the accident would have been preventable with proper safety and technology, but the plant operator just didn't bother. If you think that we should all feel super confident that nuclear accidents can never happen I think you're the one who's living in a fantasy world. Come up with a real justification for why this won't just keep happening.

A) "Nuclear plants are just bombs waiting to go off" is a stupid comment, Stein deserves no defense for it and its not a reason anyone should vote for her.

B) "The failure of a Nuclear Plant has a non-zero chance of happening and it would be a disaster" is not mutually exclusive with "by most numerical metrics we should be using more nuclear power not less since its the best option in the near future".
 

pigeon

Banned
A) "Nuclear plants are just bombs waiting to go off" is a stupid comment, Stein deserves no defense for it and its not a reason anyone should vote for her.

B) "The failure of a Nuclear Plant has a non-zero chance of happening and it would be a disaster" is not mutually exclusive with "by most numerical metrics we should be using more nuclear power not less since its the best option in the near future".

Stein sucks, whatever. Don't care about her.

Your second point is theoretically true but the conditions in which It is true are actually pretty specific and I'm not sure they obtain. For example, this would have been a better argument when solar wasn't tumbling down a superlinear efficiency trendline.
 
Frankly pigeon I do think that someone who doesn't believe nuclear is a major component (perhaps the major component) in fighting global warming is being dumb or delusional. I think that anyone who actually looks at and understands the mammoth scale and infrastructure required to eliminate carbon emissions would come to the same conclusion irrespective of safety concerns. I similarly think someone is dumb if they think current models of cars are too dangerous because they read Nader's book about them and think technology stopped when it was published.

That nuclear power is under protected today does not reflect how we should use and safegaurd the technology. Needing more and better oversight and fail safes over human error is a relatively simple political and engineering problem. Figuring out how to store wind/solar energy on a global scale is not equivalent.
 

pigeon

Banned
Frankly pigeon I do think that someone who doesn't believe nuclear is a major component (perhaps the major component) in fighting global warming is being dumb or delusional. I think that anyone who actually looks at and understands the mammoth scale and infrastructure required to eliminate carbon emissions would come to the same conclusion irrespective of safety concerns. I similarly think someone is dumb if they think current models of cars are too dangerous because they read Nader's book about them and think technology stopped when it was published.

Then you should make more persuasive posts about it. "This is true and anybody who doesn't agree with me is dumb" is a waste of time to post. If you have all this ostensible knowledge why not use it to make intelligent arguments in support of your position?

"Nuclear is potentially catastrophic but we have to do it a lot anyway, what are you, a dummy" is a level of argumentation that perhaps demonstrates why we have had so little success stemming the tide of global warming.
 

Crocodile

Member
I'm pretty tired and about to head to bed soon but just so I'm clear, is what is being asked for is a number & reference dump? I mean that can be done but A) none of it would be new info B) this isn't a new conversation (in the grand scheme of things) C) is this going to convince anyone? D) is this same rigor required in defense of say vaccines at this point or that global warming exists at all? Those sorts of conversations tend to go nowhere not because of an absence of evidence or strong statistics but that opposing parties refuse to change their opinions when presented with information that contradicts their world view. As an example, "If you just explained it better" isn't the reason many prominent GOP policy makers are skeptical of climate science.
 

AntoneM

Member
I find all these posts about how obviously we need nuclear power and anybody who's worried about it is just dumb to be really tedious. It's frankly a disrespectful and arrogant argument pattern. Sometimes the reason people disagree with you is that you're wrong or you're communicating badly, not because they're obviously crazy.

I'll say it again, Fukushima happened in 2011, and the investigation found that, sure, the accident would have been preventable with proper safety and technology, but the plant operator just didn't bother. If you think that we should all feel super confident that nuclear accidents can never happen I think you're the one who's living in a fantasy world. Come up with a real justification for why this won't just keep happening.
You are asking the impossible. You don't want an answer.
 
Then you should make more persuasive posts about it. "This is true and anybody who doesn't agree with me is dumb" is a waste of time to post. If you have all this ostensible knowledge why not use it to make intelligent arguments in support of your position?

"Nuclear is potentially catastrophic but we have to do it a lot anyway, what are you, a dummy" is a level of argumentation that perhaps demonstrates why we have had so little success stemming the tide of global warming.

Substantively I see little in form to distinguish that from saying everyone supporting Trump is a white nationalist which is to say I don't care if bothers you because, as you would argue in another context, it doesn't make it any more or less true. I'm not interested in trying to convince someone who has taken a fundamentally unreasonable position to look at the issue fairly; if people were willing to do that they would have come to a different conclusion already. Or to put it into the words of the analogy, if they weren't white nationalists they wouldn't support Trump so why bother?
 

pigeon

Banned
You are asking the impossible. You don't want an answer.

This is exactly the shit I'm talking about. Immediately assume that anyone arguing with you is doing so ignorantly or in bad faith, because it lets you out of actually trying to convince anybody that you're right. Thanks for coming to the thread to contribute nothing.

I'm pretty tired and about to head to bed soon but just so I'm clear, is what is being asked for is a number & reference dump? I mean that can be done but A) none of it would be new info B) this isn't a new conversation (in the grand scheme of things) C) is this going to convince anyone? D) is this same rigor required in defense of say vaccines at this point or that global warming exists at all? Those sorts of conversations tend to go nowhere not because of an absence of evidence or strong statistics but that opposing parties refuse to change their opinions when presented with information that contradicts their world view. As an example, "If you just explained it better" isn't the reason many prominent GOP policy makers are skeptical of climate science.

If you think it's a waste of time to try to convince people that are skeptical, why are you bothering to post about the topic at all? Just to share warm fuzzies with all the other smart people in the thread who agree with you?

I have already made a pretty clear argument from my perspective. Nuclear power is very dangerous, we clearly haven't as a society demonstrated the ability to use it without potentially huge disasters, technological advances don't seem to have changed that, and alternate, safer power sources are in development and getting more effective over time. So, like, I don't know what else I can do to demonstrate the concept of engaging genuinely in discussion with people. Feel free to disagree with these points and post arguments and evidence why. If you feel like the material is already presented somewhere else then maybe you should link to it and quote it, like people do literally every day in this thread, or, you know, in any sort of written discourse.
 

pigeon

Banned
Substantively I see little in form to distinguish that from saying everyone supporting Trump is a white nationalist which is to say I don't care if bothers you because, as you would argue in another context, it doesn't make it any more or less true. I'm not interested in trying to convince someone who has taken a fundamentally unreasonable position to look at the issue fairly; if people were willing to do that they would have come to a different conclusion already. Or to put it into the words of the analogy, if they weren't white nationalists they wouldn't support Trump so why bother?

This reflects very poorly on your critical thinking skills.

I treat the argument about Trump as obvious because it actually is obvious. It rests on statements he has actually made on video that
he stands by and his supporters don't deny existing.

If you could produce a video of God saying that global warming was progressing so quickly that we needed to build nuclear power plants then I would happily agree with you that it was straightforwardly obvious. But of course that video does not exist. Instead your argument presumably relies on a breadth of knowledge about the progress of global warming, the connection between that and carbon production, the effectiveness and safety of various power generation options, and a bunch of trendlines and hypotheses about the near-future deltas of all of the above.

You seem to be suggesting that all of that is equally as immediately obvious as the fact that mass deportations is a racist policy. That is a surprisingly crazy position for you to take.

I am pretty offended by the suggestion that the only reason I don't agree with you that we need to immediately build a bunch of nuclear plants is that I don't want to look at the issue fairly. For example, maybe you have information I don't have.
 

Grief.exe

Member
I find all these posts about how obviously we need nuclear power and anybody who's worried about it is just dumb to be really tedious. It's frankly a disrespectful and arrogant argument pattern. Sometimes the reason people disagree with you is that you're wrong or you're communicating badly, not because they're obviously crazy.

I'll say it again, Fukushima happened in 2011, and the investigation found that, sure, the accident would have been preventable with proper safety and technology, but the plant operator just didn't bother. If you think that we should all feel super confident that nuclear accidents can never happen I think you're the one who's living in a fantasy world. Come up with a real justification for why this won't just keep happening.

Isn't Fukushima also a gen 1 nuclear power plant that have inherent instability due to their need for constant cooling to keep the reaction in check?
Modern plants require cooling to keep the reaction going, unable to pump water into the chamber, no reaction.

I'm also tired and heading to bed, can pick this up tomorrow.
 

CCS

Banned
To lighten things up, I demand to be called Master CCS from now on.

Also, I'm like 90% certain Trump was drunk at his last rally.
 
This seems like your same objection to GMOs.

Nothing is completely safe.

Science is basically based on repeated observation to a reasonable degree of certainty.
 
To lighten things up, I demand to be called Master CCS from now on.

Also, I'm like 90% certain Trump was drunk at his last rally.
Hawk is weird.

Dr Stein should use her title as much as she wants in her professional capacity. It's part of her professional persona.

I mean it would be weird if she made friends call her that. And dickish if she goes out of her way to correct people in a rude manner or something.
 
Politics1.com ‏@Politics1com 9h9 hours ago
Party of Socialism & Liberation nom Gloria LaRiva won the nom of the Peace & Freedom Party -- and their CA ballot line. PSL is pro-N Korea.

FTR, they got just under 10k votes in 2012.

Lovin' the Trump pivot (
to a landslide defeat
).
 

CCS

Banned
Hawk is weird.

Dr Stein should use her title as much as she wants in her professional capacity. It's part of her professional persona.

I mean it would be weird if she made friends call her that. And dickish if she goes out of her way to correct people in a rude manner or something.

If I ever become a Doctor I'm changing my surname to Who and demanding people use my title :p
 

Teggy

Member
From now on I should be referred to as Master Master Teggy.

Actually, my grandma used to address everything to me as Master Teggy when I was a kid.
 

ampere

Member
Yeah but the entire position is to ditch nuclear and fossil at once (well, phase it all out by 2030 actually if I want to be totally fair), which is quite the timeline. Beyond that, if you want to phase out fossil fuels, you'll need nuclear around for a period of time, as has been said.

Yup. It's an essential bridge fuel to clean energy, regardless of whether it's optimal for permanent use.

Instead of nuke plants generating waste we have to store we should put all the radioactive waste into the air and breathe it.

Oh.

Wait.

That's coal.

:lol

Perfect.
 
Fundamentally, I agree Brawndo (tho I'd probably phrase it more delicately). Modern nuclear power plants are orders of magnitude safer than prior models, while still providing literally unparalleled quantities of, well, power.

log_scale.png


Fundamentally, our power consumption as a society is only going to go up in the foreseeable future, at least until every country on earth hits the industrial population plateau (and that's assuming that future technologies don't consume more power than current ones, which doesn't seem to be a particularly safe bet). Wind and solar both have some critical flaws in that they're dependent on local conditions and, frankly, very low yield. The latter is steadily improving, but unless you're willing to literally coat Nevada with solar farms, you're never going to be able to power a country like the US off of those two. Nuclear meets our needs.

Nuclear is also considerably safer than most people give it credit for. A properly functioning nuclear plant releases less radiation into the atmosphere than a coal burning one, for instance. And other than Chernobyl (which was a shitshow even when it was built), nuclear's track record is significantly better than fossil fuels. Yes, nuclear disasters are scarier, but arguably coal and oil have done significantly more damage, in terms of both health risks and the obvious environmental damage. This presents an interesting issue where the fear of nuclear power is arguably doing more damage than the actual negative impact of it. In the case of Three Mile Island, for instance, more people got cancer from the stress of being near the "disaster" than actually got cancer from, you know, radiation. And Fukushima, while bad, is closer in scale to a Superfund site than Chernobyl. It's a first-gen plant that got hit with an earthquake a full 2 points higher on the Richter scale than it was designed to withstand and goddamn tsunami, and there's no evidence of permanent contamination. By all metrics other than public opinion, Fukushima was a triumph of safety precautions. No evidence of long-term increases in the cancer rates of residents. Radiation basically back to normal background levels everywhere but a small area around the reactors themselves. Forbes contributor piece on the subject (I know, I know, but it's very well cited). And that's in a plant that is, by modern standards, downright ancient! In current models, your operators don't have to work at making it not melt down, they need to work at making it stay on. If coolant stops flowing into the reactor for any reason, the reaction is halted entirely automatically. They're built to higher standards than Fukushima in other areas too.

In conclusion, Nuclear is a necessary part of our energy platform moving forwards, and significantly safer than people give it credit for.
 

ampere

Member
And therein lies my concern - in the event that a demagogue like Trump (but could be anyone else, for that mater) was elected, and the nuclear industry becomes less regulated, corners are cut, stuff can happen.

Well, I don't think this is a great argument since the main concern with a lunatic being president is that they can launch nuclear missiles, and this isn't going to change based on our energy generation.

I find all these posts about how obviously we need nuclear power and anybody who's worried about it is just dumb to be really tedious. It's frankly a disrespectful and arrogant argument pattern. Sometimes the reason people disagree with you is that you're wrong or you're communicating badly, not because they're obviously crazy.

I'll say it again, Fukushima happened in 2011, and the investigation found that, sure, the accident would have been preventable with proper safety and technology, but the plant operator just didn't bother. If you think that we should all feel super confident that nuclear accidents can never happen I think you're the one who's living in a fantasy world. Come up with a real justification for why this won't just keep happening.

Bold - not wrong, but there's a large misconception that nuclear power ~= nuclear bomb, and that radiation is a nuclear power plant only thing. I'd say this causes much of the fear about nuclear power, and Chernobyl which had almost zero regulatory oversight is a often cited disaster.

The US NRC is incredibly strict, and because of it we've never had an incident that broke containment. If a nuclear power plant has an issue and containment holds, it's just a big monetary loss for the plant owner, and not actually an environmental disaster. On the other hand, fossil fuel burning is currently an environmental disaster and will continue to be one until we stop using them.
 
I find all these posts about how obviously we need nuclear power and anybody who's worried about it is just dumb to be really tedious. It's frankly a disrespectful and arrogant argument pattern. Sometimes the reason people disagree with you is that you're wrong or you're communicating badly, not because they're obviously crazy.

I'll say it again, Fukushima happened in 2011, and the investigation found that, sure, the accident would have been preventable with proper safety and technology, but the plant operator just didn't bother. If you think that we should all feel super confident that nuclear accidents can never happen I think you're the one who's living in a fantasy world. Come up with a real justification for why this won't just keep happening.

Considering how many nuclear plants there are, and for how long we've had them, the number of nuclear accidents is quite low, and only Cherbobyl - situated in a failing state with lax standards - caused any kind of real widespread problem.

American-style reactors are also ridiculously more redundantly safe, and when you combine that with modern advancements in reactor technology that allow the recycling of waste, and the fact we ARE in fact able to account for possible natural disasters in advance in terms of where and how we build them, the danger really is quite minimal relative to the benefits.
 

Tarkus

Member
I got drunk as fuck last night and Fox News is playing the "terrorism" music going to commercial. What kind of attack happened?
 
I got drunk as fuck last night and Fox News is playing the "terrorism" music going to commercial. What kind of attack happened?

idk what Fox was referring to specifically, but there was a thing in Canada. Nobody hurt but the dude (shot by cops) and his taxi driver (who's apparently going to be okay?)
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Regardless of the form of power (and I'm a proponent of new nuclear power plants being built all across the country because of how safe it is, especially if you pick ONE design and stick with it everywhere, which was a problem in the past), the nation's power grid and infrastructure needs to be upgraded ASAP. From what I've read, it's crumbling and hasn't been maintained anywhere near what it needed to be over the past two decades.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Additionally, until you have developed better storage technology, solar power literally cannot be the sole source - what happens when you need power at night? Nuclear is a necessary crutch. Andasol 1 is a step on the path to progress, but we're not there yet.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
The shorter version is that we should be going to nuclear en masse regardless of uneducated fears because the benefits of maybe staving off unstoppable global warming outweigh the actual risk of global nuclear fallout from poorly managed sites.

Everything else is nuance to comfort the uncomfortable.
 

Diablos

Member
RNC threatening to cut off money "in case" Hillary wins so they have an excuse?

They're clearly preparing for the worst.

I cannot believe how badly Trump and co. are legit messing up. They're now sticking to tying Obama to the creation of ISIS and starting the war in Afghanistan? You try to undermine Obama like this and you do so at your peril. Furthermore Hillary is running, not Obama. What a waste of their time.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
RNC threatening to cut off money "in case" Hillary wins so they have an excuse?

They're clearly preparing for the worst.

I cannot believe how badly Trump and co. are legit messing up. They're now sticking to tying Obama to the creation of ISIS and starting the war in Afghanistan? You try to undermine Obama like this and you do so at your peril. Furthermore Hillary is running, not Obama. What a waste of their time.

We're only a few years removed from a large majority of the same party and both of its media arms arguing the president is a Muslim Kenyan that wanted to bring sharia law, create a false flag to take all the guns away, and submit the elderly to death panels. This is not new.
 
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