• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

PoliGAF 2017 |OT1| From Russia with Love

Status
Not open for further replies.

Pixieking

Banned
And how would handing the thing over to Hillary do less damage to the US than removing Trump?

Whatever comes from this story, if true, the damage is done, period. But the United States will not fall. Neither Trump, Pence nor the rank and file Republicans can really afford to be seen as pro-Russia at this point regardless of the facts of the story.

If no-one takes the fall for this, the GOP/Trump administration will continue to be pro-Russia. Because, if no-one takes the fall, they'll continue to assert it's liberal lies.

Further, might I add that no matter Russia's influence Trump still won on his own twisted merits. The DNC email's were real. The bullshit Trump spewed on a constant basis that was constantly false was just blatantly false and Russia couldn't give it any more credence if they wanted to. Hillary's email investigation, the importance of which can be debated of course, was real. The players may all suck in this game but none of the cards were fake if that makes sense. Trump and his circles' ties to Russia was already known. People more or less accept he's hiding shit in his tax returns, even his supporters think that. He had already got caught in scandals of his own. He got called a puppet on the debate stage on live TV. It's not like the populace was ignorant of this, they didn't care.

So I'm not sure what bringing the UN and other Western countries into this does, I mean right now Russia's funding advertising and shit into them right now too! We also do the same. Sucks to get bit by our own tactics but I digress, live by the sword and we can die by the sword I guess. I'm also not sure exactly where we go with this because many Americans have no problems with, say, Israel influencing our politics and elected officials bending over backwards to their desires. That's been going on for a long time and in my opinion just as disgusting.

If Russia influenced the election result, then that literally makes a laughing stock of US democracy. At what point in the future does a foreign power do something worse than this? At what point in the future will influence from a foreign power be too much influence?

The reason I say that if this happened to another country the UN/West would be up-in-arms is because once a foreign power crosses the line from subtle influence to overt propaganda, the future of that country's democracy can be shown to be clearly influenced, and it'll continue. You can argue that the US/CIA did a lot of this kind-of-thing in the past, sure - Chile would be a good example, I think - but there's a difference between this and that, in terms of raw-power of the countries involved, and the potential for splitting related organisations (UN/UNSC/NATO). Also, the US in the 60s/70s merely wanted to prevent the spread of Communism. Russia in the here-and-now is actively seeking to destabilise entire regions for the purposes of nationalism, empire-building and natural resource theft.

Further, I think there's a difference between Average Joe Bloggs accepting this, and the actual US - as a nation-state - accepting this. SCOTUS/Senate/Congress/DoJ and every other federal power has to - to one degree or another - ensure the safety and well being of the country and its citizenry. Again, if they fail to do this, then it can show that the largest Western power can be influenced with no repercussions, and that can only be bad for the future.
Further, if this stuff can not be verified to a reasonable degree what kind of signal would it send for elections after this? Could any outgoing administration slander the incoming one with allegations and invalidate the election? This stuff needs to be fucking ironclad before anyone talks about doing anything.

Oh, for sure. Definitely not debating that. :)
 
I dunno Trump are we? It's your fucking country.

Jesus Christ what a whiner. Stuff like this is what's going to really make me miss Obama, every personal slight (whether valid or complete bullshit like the kind Trump specializes in) lobbed at him rolled off his back.

I hope there's a "YOU LIE!" moment at his SOTU or any other speech before Congress and he gets into a shouting match over it. Maybe he'll jump over the podium and get into fisticuffs.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
If no-one takes the fall for this, the GOP/Trump administration will continue to be pro-Russia. Because, if no-one takes the fall, they'll continue to assert it's liberal lies.
I'm not saying nobody takes the fall, if this is verified, say Trump's removed but Pence stays, sure, he may seem tainted but I could see a situation where everyone left overcompensates against Russia in an effort to save face.

I may not like the Republican party but I'm also not convinced that if Trump wasn't removed, and this was all confirmed, that they'd all fall in line. I'd like to believe a good many of them would work to delegitimize the election.

Honestly speaking, the only way I see the Republicans not taking damage is if the electorate flat out doesn't care. Which is, sadly, a real possibility. There's a lot of right wingers who think Putin's bad ass or at the least would prefer a Russian puppet to a Liberal, as insane as this shit is. So I'm not saying your fear has no merit whatsoever but I have to believe that if this is true, that whether Trump's removed, the whole Republican ticket's removed or no-one's removed that they're done this election regardless, at least so far as hurting NATO or appeasing Russia. Because the alternative to that is that the populace doesn't give a fuck and if that truly is the case then it doesn't matter what we do, Obama could right this wrong and it'd just happen again because the populace just didn't give a shit. And if the population just doesn't give a shit there's no need to even be covert about it next time.
If Russia influenced the election result, then that literally makes a laughing stock of US democracy. At what point in the future does a foreign power do something worse than this? At what point in the future will influence from a foreign power be too much influence?
There is straight up no way to eliminate foreign influence. I don't know how much of this story will end up as true or not but I also don't think we've been clear of foreign influence for a long time. How much is too much? I'd say all of it, but in this connected world I'd be hardpressed to find a candidate for President, by nature of the money needed to run and the visibility, that is not influenced, directly or indirectly, by foreign powers. This doesn't just have to be the Kremlin mind you, it could be people like HSBC or BP.

The reason I say that if this happened to another country the UN/West would be up-in-arms is because once a foreign power crosses the line from subtle influence to overt propaganda, the future of that country's democracy can be shown to be clearly influenced, and it'll continue. You can argue that the US/CIA did a lot of this kind-of-thing in the past, sure - Chile would be a good example, I think - but there's a difference between this and that, in terms of raw-power of the countries involved, and the potential for splitting related organisations (UN/UNSC/NATO). Also, the US in the 60s/70s merely wanted to prevent the spread of Communism. Russia in the here-and-now is actively seeking to destabilise entire regions for the purposes of nationalism, empire-building and natural resource theft.
What is the difference between influence and propaganda? Right now Russia is funding parties in Western Europe ahead of many of their elections and Europe's struggling with what to do over it right now and the UN is doing jack shit. Granted, some of the allegations in this report go beyond simple funding, sure, but how much of a difference is there really? Perhaps I'm too simple a person. And I don't really want to touch whether our stopping the advance of Communism is somehow morally superior to Russia's goals, or whether I think that was the case on our end at all.


Further, I think there's a difference between Average Joe Bloggs accepting this, and the actual US - as a nation-state - accepting this. SCOTUS/Senate/Congress/DoJ and every other federal power has to - to one degree or another - ensure the safety and well being of the country and its citizenry. Again, if they fail to do this, then it can show that the largest Western power can be influenced with no repercussions, and that can only be bad for the future.
Well, first off, I don't believe that those institutions actually feel they have the responsibility of ensuring the safety and well being of the citizenry otherwise we wouldn't be looking at repealing Obamacare, privatizing Social Security, gutting Medicare, ignoring climate change science or gutting education. But snipes at the government aside, without knowing exactly what you feel should be done I'm not sure I can agree or not here. Frankly I think Trump should go. But like I said above, if somehow Congress doesn't remove him I kinda want to see what the people do. If there's not a legit law that they can remove Trump with, and this is true, then I want to see if the Republicans step up as well.

And again I say that because if the people don't do something then I'm not sure what recourse we have if we wish to remain a democracy. Do we ban Russia Today? Do we outright ban people and companies doing business with foreign entities? Do we ban pro-media of any country? We should probably make some new laws for sure though regarding running for the Presidency.
 
"No liar! You're the liar! You're the liar!"
I've been thinking what it'd be like if his mental facilities are even more blatantly deteriorating (some people suggested he's showing early signs of dementia or Alzheimer's) and an opponent called him out on it.

"No dementia, no dementia, you're the jelly bean"
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Robert Costa
Robert Costa‏ @costareports
Spoke w/ House Intel chair Nunes. Says first time he saw doc was when staff printed out BuzzFeed. "Why were we not getting this?" he asks.

I think we all know why.
 

dramatis

Member
The U.S. Supreme Court Puts North Carolina's 2017 Elections on Hold
In late November, a federal court ruled that the state must hold unusual elections for the state legislature in 2017, in order to mitigate a districting plan that the court had ruled was an unconstitutional gerrymander. Consequently, the judges also ruled that the terms of state legislators in affected districts would be shortened to a single year. And since redrawing the maps for unconstitutional districts would affect other ones, too, there was a possibility for a slew of off-year elections. But in one of his final acts as governor, Republican Pat McCrory appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court.

The Court hasn’t taken up the case yet, but it issued an order on Tuesday granting a stay on the elections. In other words, the Court has not yet decided whether or not to hear the case, but in the meantime, while it makes a decision, the elections will not move forward. The order is unsigned.

The elections could still happen—if the justices affirm the lower court’s ruling, or if they decline to hear the case, the stay would expire and the race would be back on. Otherwise, the Court could decide to make its own judgment. The Court in December heard arguments relating to a lawsuit over whether redistricting for U.S. Congress seats in North Carolina was unconstitutional gerrymandering.
Sigh.
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
Lol at everyone in the comments trolling him for using the word "leak" to talk about this.

HRG6pSk.gif]
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
If only all of this information had come out sooner... Maybe those 100k people would have changed their minds.
Closer to 70k or 60k, but probably not. I still maintain the thing that did hilllary in with late deciders in many states was the Comey letter.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Can someone sane tell me how seriously I should be taking all this? Its a goddamn fervor everywhere else but I'm worried people are too excited
 
I don't know why people keep bringing up Hillary. If this story balloons to the point where an impeachment is a very real possibility, it's better to make a Republican eat the role, because whoever ends up replacing that disgrace is doomed to be routed in 4 years.



Yes, keep making enemies with the intelligence community, you dumbfuck.
Yep

If Pence replaces an impeached Trump after Trump is kicked out for treason, he's done. 2018 will also be a brutal annilation of a midterm.
 

Ohnonono

Member
Can someone sane tell me how seriously I should be taking all this? Its a goddamn fervor everywhere else but I'm worried people are too excited

I am also like this. I am looking at it and thinking it looks like something, but constantly questioning if it will mean anything. So much stuff has felt like slam dunk stuff over the past 9 months or so and it has always never mattered. I am super gun-shy about this. If this all goes down though it will be nuts.
 
Can someone sane tell me how seriously I should be taking all this? Its a goddamn fervor everywhere else but I'm worried people are too excited

I think it's a big mess right now regarding the veracity of the specifics. What you can say, definitively, is that the intelligence agencies have determined that this is not obviously bullshit, at first blush. That is to say, the sources for this information could credibly have this information.

That's a ways off from it being verified, though.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
One thing this does make me wonder, is how Trump can handle even four years of this strain mentally. People often cite his physical condition, but Trump has never had to deal with this kind of constant controversy, foreign powers, and being the target of the world's criticism.

I keep seeing him suddenly snapping at a press conference, screaming "BA BA! BABABA BA! BALALALA!" while waggling his hands in the air and then running off the stage.
 
One thing this does make me wonder, is how Trump can handle even four years of this strain mentally. People often cite his physical condition, but Trump has never had to deal with this kind of constant controversy, foreign powers, and being the target of the world's criticism.

I keep seeing him suddenly snapping at a press conference, screaming "BA BA! BABABA BA! BALALALA!" while waggling his hands in the air and then running off the stage.

Even without these kinds of reports, just being President in general seems like a terrible job for somebody that gets wounded by any perceived slight.
 
This won't go away. This will be a low trickle of news as more and more gets verified and intelligence committees investigate.

It's going to be a thorn in his side for his first 100 days

Yeah if something substantial comes out, but the report was included more as a "Heads-up" than factual information.

More information regarding his Russian ties will definitely come out, but blackmail information? I doubt it.

And ultimately, Congress won't do shit.

Expect a smokescreen at today's press conference.
 
His conflicts on interest - and how he doesn't DGAF - IMO is a much bigger and immediate problem.

Which is saying a lot, because Russia is not a small issue.

What a fucked-up President.
 

Holmes

Member
It's typical for a lower court ruling to be stayed while the Supreme Court decides if it wants to take the case/makes a ruling.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Even without these kinds of reports, just being President in general seems like a terrible job for somebody that gets wounded by any perceived slight.

We're going from Obama who weathered unreal amounts of hostility, much of which was nakedly racist, without ever dropping his shoulders, to this cretin.

The man who psychologically requires everyone within his field of view to kneel and kiss his ring, lest he throw a tantrum.
 

Sianos

Member
Trump's outbursts on Twitter, from invoking an incredibly tangential Godwin's Law to how Russia is corroborating his claim that he is not a puppet for Russia, indicate to me that either there's something golden here if we keep digging... Or that Trump is going to have an extreme meltdown every single time he is cast in an unfavorable light.
 
How happy is Comey that all this attention is being paid to the Russians (who may have influenced things a bit) and not to him violating the Hatch Act-- which probably influenced things more, and which is directly actionable?
 
How happy is Comey that all this attention is being paid to the Russians (who may have influenced things a bit) and not to him violating the Hatch Act-- which probably influenced things more, and which is directly actionable?

If I were him, I'd be fucking spooked because if last night's story keeps gaining traction, eventually people are going to ask why he shat on Hillary but kept his mouth shut on this.
 
Or that Trump is going to have an extreme meltdown every single time he is cast in an unfavorable light.

Either outcome is good, but I think the latter should be the Dems' strategy. In the campaign he lost the most support when he wouldn't drop and issue or take an easy way out because it hurt his ego. Keep that going while running issues concurrent to his meltdowns.
 
How happy is Comey that all this attention is being paid to the Russians (who may have influenced things a bit) and not to him violating the Hatch Act-- which probably influenced things more, and which is directly actionable?

Problem is Obama couldn't replace him in time, and they prefer to keep Comey in fear of what Trump might replace him with.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Problem is Obama couldn't replace him in time, and they prefer to keep Comey in fear of what Trump might replace him with.
I think the problem is bigger than that. You have half the voting public who thought it was a reasonable assumption the election was rigged, that the DNC primary was rigged, that the GOP primary was rigged, that all the cards were stacked against Donald Trump. If Obama, indirectly of course, had released unverified information against Trump it would've been further confirmation, in those people's eyes, that the Democratic administration was influencing the election in their favor. If Comey were punished after the letter again it would have looked like retaliation from the Democratic Party to protect Hillary Clinton, well it would have been actually but in this case rightfully so.

I think once that happened there was no choice but to keep him on and try and keep the impression of staying out of the election to as many people as possible, punishing Comey might have given us hard-ons but it absolutely would have looked bad for Hillary. There was no right choice there.

I don't think what Trump may or may not do had anything to do with keeping Comey. Trump can still replace him with whoever he likes, he's not protected just because Obama kept him or anything like that. It was all about optics.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom