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PoliGAF 2017 |OT1| From Russia with Love
- Thread starter ItWasMeantToBe19
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Cesare Borgia
Banned
Bernie wasn't handed the party, so everything is rigged. I thought these people liked competitive contests...
I still think that as long as a good candidate is chosen in 2020 none of this matters. None of the candidates can possibly have as much baggage as Hillary Clinton, and more than a few will be charismatic enough to move beyond anger over "corporate donations" and other distractions. Goldman Sachs gave a lot of money to Obama in 2007 and 2008...nobody gave a fuck. If you're good at what you do, honest, and CONSISTENT it's not going to be a problem.
I also think the ticket is going to end up being some type of compromise. Right now I don't see a candidate who can sweep the map like Obama/Hillary/Romney/etc did. I could see Booker doing very well in the south, Harris doing very well in the west coast+border states, Kander potentially doing well in the heartland, etc. Someone will outright clinch the nomination, but I don't think we'll see one candidate carve a clear path to victory early/become inevitable/etc. I think the VP choice could very easily be someone who lost the primary but did well and has the ability to create a coalition. As an example...Sherrod Brown and Cory Booker, for instance. Or Harris and Kander.
balladofwindfishes
Member
How does that make him grassroots? Since when are grassroots candidates endorsed by career establishment politicians?
Pandora012
Member
But isn't it their job to also think about the long-term? So right now my future is looking pretty bleak because they are scared? Why don't they try to educate the people, on why such measures are necessary?
balladofwindfishes
Member
They don't really care that constantly lowering taxes is unsustainable. They won't be the guy who has to deal with it.
The moment Zuckerberg tries something he's going to poison the well for any others.
At this point, I'd actually bet on Gillibrand, her pander game was on point during the confirmations.
metalslimer
Member
I could actually see an example where the split is so bad no 2020 candidate clinches without the few superdelegates they have left. If the party actually gets rid of them altogether and no one clinches it could get extremely ugly
Just look at what happened to Bush Senior.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
I think early on it will be more competitive than usual in the first few states but it will narrow itself down to a few candidates by Super Tuesday. See what happened with the Republican clown car.
It made him an important signal that I saw the most popular support for. Maybe it's just a lefty bubble (but I read in here) but I never saw anyone make an argument for Perez. People got excited about Ellison. People wanted Ellison. Maybe it was because of Bernie, but him being on the Bernie side was encouraging, because it was getting one of our guys in a position.
I mean by your logic Obama had no grassroots because he had people like Reid endorsing him?
Dominican Power
Member
It's amazing how extremely low the bar has gotten for Trump. No minority would ever get away with this level of incompetence and mediocrity.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
Most people are not capable of being educated.
It is literally impossible to win an election on the platform of raising taxes. The only option is to lie and then raise them, which guarantees you a single term.
Gillibrand is shockingly good at navigating the gender issue. She's tough enough so that you know where she stands, but she'll play into gendered expectations enough to put fragile men at ease. One minute she goes from tweeting about the need for reform in the military court system and the next is a tweet about the turkey she just made for Thanksgiving. Anyone sleeping on her does so at their own peril.
Many people in this country live paycheck to paycheck, saddled by debts, high medical bills and/or premiums, various real estate bubbles, depressed wages, etc. You can spend the rest of your life teaching them about the long-term, public good and necessity raising taxes, and all the ways that money can be reinvested into their communities and their own lives. It doesn't matter. Nobody wants to be paying more on taxes on top of everything else, and no politician wants to bear the inevitable price to be paid for doing so.
I wanted Perez for the job, and said the only reason the DNC shouldn't elect him is to throw the optics bone in electing Ellison instead (who I also think would've been fine, but he was like my 2nd or 3rd choice).
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
Why are you assuming all "Bernie people" are Bernie or Busters? I worked my ass off to try and get Democrats into power last cycle, I have voted for the Democrat in every contested election I've participated in, I've told people off for voting third party. And I'll still work under Perez and I want to work on getting Democrats elected. I'm probably going to phonebank for Ossoff and Perriello when their elections get closer.
I think if you offered tangible returns for taxes, they would not object. Offer universal Medicaid for the same amount that is now paid by the individual in private insurance and copays and the vast majority will want it. It will be paying someone else for the same thing, while also taking the worry and stress away.
It's partly why the ACA is so well received by those who have it, because it's predictable cost coverage without worry about pre-existing conditions, surprise bills and so forth.
It's the tax now without a definitive benefit plan that's not going to fly. We're working on it and we'll give you details later simply does not work.
THIS.
For the record - I'm a pretttty down the fairway lib (I work in finance lol).
I didn't see excitement for either, aside from the Sanders folks who got in line behind their idol's pick. So yeah, that 'excitement' was really just because Ellison was endorsed by Sanders.
I don't think the endorsement of an establishment politician entails automatic classification as a grassroots candidate. What did Ellison do by himself to indicate he was the grassroots candidate? Aren't you just generously giving him the label because Ellison was attached to Sanders, and not because Ellison did anything meriting that label on his own?
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
It's kind of implicit in what PBY is saying no? If someone supported Bernie in the primaries but has little issue with how the DNC race played out they aren't part of that group that PBY is talking about right? They are just normal Democrats/Liberals who liked Bernie more than Clinton - they aren't the one's threatening to take their ball home if they don't get everything they want (and they want it basically only because Bernie supported it or it supported Bernie) right?
Maybe we (including me) need to be more careful with definitions? Either way, I still don't understand the notion that "Picking Perez spits in the eye of the grassroots!". Why do we assume the grassroots is made up of mostly BnBs?
balladofwindfishes
Member
Also Obama wanted Perez, which is something I think played a much larger part of his selection than many other factors.
Cesare Borgia
Banned
Probably the same types who demand a 50 state strategy. I doubt anyone here likes Manchin but he's the only democrat you're going to get from...West Virginia.
whyamihere
Banned
This will honestly help him in his reelection lol
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
We want a 50 state strategy that also doesn't result in representatives that are a product of their constituencies. When do we want it? Now.
Fucking morons. You'd almost wish they were successful.
Then they can see what happens when you stick your hand in the fire.
metalslimer
Member
No matter how bad Manchin is the republican replacement would be so much worse. At least Manchin voted against Devos
There's a difference between being a proper moderate like Tester, Heitkamp, or Donnelly and being a real-deal DINO like Joe Manchin.
Roland_Gunner
Member
Trump won West Virginia by 30 points. Manchin is literally the most liberal person who can be elected there. Good luck finding a Republican who is going to vote for civil rights 90% of the time and for a broad social safety net 100% of the time.
http://politicsthatwork.com/voting-record/Joe-Manchin-412391
balladofwindfishes
Member
It's +1 towards the majority. It could be the difference between Schumer being minority or majority leader. And that title comes with a lot of power, even if they didn't actually have 50+ "true" Democrats
Manchin still votes with the Democrats majority of the time. He's from fucking West Virginia, I mean did anyone expect anything other than what he is to carry that state as a Democrat?
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
I understand the pragmatic reasons for keeping someone like Manchin around but at some point I think we need to ask if it's worth having someone who will vote for Sessions in the party.
In a way though, I guess it's means people are more likely to get involved, not less. The WaPo article about how Ellison blew it mentions that a lot of Ellison's support came from people who were newly elected to party offices. It just shows that we need to get more people in the rest of those seats.
Is anyone (or many, I'm sure there's a couple but they were only interested in being mad) threatening to take their ball and go home purely off of Ellison not getting it? People are expressing their frustration because they feel like they made their voices be heard and the party ignored them.
In a way though, I guess it's means people are more likely to get involved, not less. The WaPo article about how Ellison blew it mentions that a lot of Ellison's support came from people who were newly elected to party offices. It just shows that we need to get more people in the rest of those seats.
I'd take a DINO in Joe Manchin over a RINO in Collins all the time + as others have said you replace Manchin with an R who will vote 100% against you versus 70-30 or 60-40 on votes.
See Cotton, Cassidy, Boozman, Daines vs Pryor, Lincoln, Landrieu, Baucus etc
Eh; the focus on "identity politics" was an aftereffect of basing your campaign strategy on being 99% anti-Trump rather than being pro-Clinton. Trump was much easier to hit on his racism, sexism, etc, and the initial focus tests (which an overinterpretation of is one of the main culprits in Clinton's loss) showed that people were more "moved" by anti-Trump ads than pro-Clinton ads. So they went down that route all the way, but I think they ran into diminishing returns. But because their strategy was to be anti-Trump, attacking his racism & sexism (and then naturally showing your policies about them) became the dominant theme.
The problem is that people generally (and Democrats especially) want someone to vote for rather than someone to vote against. So the strategy failed to turnout Dems (primarily young POC voters) in necessary numbers to win. The conflation of the anti-Trump strategy with focusing on "identity politics" is what causes most of the confusion and arguments amongst the Dems. If Trump had a weaker economic message and wasn't so blatantly sexist and racist - Clinton would have gone after him on economic issues, and we'd probably be having the opposite argument about why we overly focused on economic issues rather than social issues.
Coming in a month after the race had started and folks from both factions had endorsed Ellison was a bad thing. The latest Pod Saves America explains it better than I can.
Basically they should have listened to Dean and put Mayor Pete in.
lol probably. what's going to be funny is when the 50 state strategy starts recruiting a lot of Blue Dogs to run, and folks here start getting super mad about the Blue Dogs not being left enough (see: the Trump confirmation votes).
I know you're not the one putting this argument forward, but an entire position was created specifically for Ellison to in the party leadership's no.2 spot. I don't see that as voices being ignored.
balladofwindfishes
Member
The alternate would vote for Sessions. It's either him or a hardline Republican.
No, we don't need that discussion. And we especially don't need to have it w/ people who aren't living in WV or having to work with him in the Senate!
Good news on gerrymandering in Virginia
http://www.dailykos.com/stories/201...tected-Virginia-GOP-s-legislative-gerrymander
http://www.dailykos.com/stories/201...tected-Virginia-GOP-s-legislative-gerrymander
Frank the Great
Banned
The good news is that Manchin getting constantly attacked by liberals will only help his reelection efforts in WV.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
balladofwindfishes
Member
There's is absolutely no reason we should have a seat in extremely hard red West Virginia
And yet we do, so we should count our blessings. It's one less win we have to take somewhere else to get the majority.
And yet we do, so we should count our blessings. It's one less win we have to take somewhere else to get the majority.
whyamihere
Banned
So, a little fun update about what's going on in Pennsylvania right now.
There's a special election in PA HD 197 because Rep. Leslie Acosta committed a felony. The district is in North Philly and is suuuuper blue.
So, the issue? There was a court challenge against Democrat Freddie Ramirez, who Republicans said did not live at his address in the district. They looked at his water and power usage in his apartment until he finally did admit that he doesn't spend much time in his apartment. He was thrown off of the ballot.
Democrats can either 1) Petition to the SCOPA to have him put on or 2) try to have a judge put a replacement candidate on in the name of giving the district a fair election. It looks like they're going to try option 2, and they have a candidate, but the election is at the 21st. They could do a write in campaign since it's SO Democratic, but... eh.
Enter Jill Stein's seance partner Cheri Honkala, who run as Jill's VP in 2012. She's the Green candidate in the 197th and the ONLY left wing candidate in the race. Honkala herself is fairly controversial but would be the only elected candidate on the Green Party line in a state legislature.
Good job, Dems. And good job Dems who gave all of your money to the Greens. I'm suuuuure none of that is going to Cheri's campaign.
There's a special election in PA HD 197 because Rep. Leslie Acosta committed a felony. The district is in North Philly and is suuuuper blue.
So, the issue? There was a court challenge against Democrat Freddie Ramirez, who Republicans said did not live at his address in the district. They looked at his water and power usage in his apartment until he finally did admit that he doesn't spend much time in his apartment. He was thrown off of the ballot.
Democrats can either 1) Petition to the SCOPA to have him put on or 2) try to have a judge put a replacement candidate on in the name of giving the district a fair election. It looks like they're going to try option 2, and they have a candidate, but the election is at the 21st. They could do a write in campaign since it's SO Democratic, but... eh.
Enter Jill Stein's seance partner Cheri Honkala, who run as Jill's VP in 2012. She's the Green candidate in the 197th and the ONLY left wing candidate in the race. Honkala herself is fairly controversial but would be the only elected candidate on the Green Party line in a state legislature.
Good job, Dems. And good job Dems who gave all of your money to the Greens. I'm suuuuure none of that is going to Cheri's campaign.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
Yeah it's a weird dilemma.
I said I understand the pragmatic argument, I just don't think it's totally worth dismissing.
He also said he'd consider switching parties if he was the deciding vote for majority leader so I'm not even sure the second part is true.
Though amusingly, unlike the southern senators like Lincoln or Boozman the other two senators we've recently had from WV were pretty good. Well, Byrd was not very good for a long time but it seems like he made some genuine attempts at repentance.
My read of this is "well, at least it's going to the Greens"?
tedrotheredro
Member
No one should try to primary Manchin, but taking him off Dem leadership and as vice chair of the Democratic Policy Committee isn't all that crazy. Then again, what can the Democratic Policy Committee even do right now, meditate and write poems?
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