VendettaRed07
Member
Even if he wasn't a "Republican", West Virginia has the lowest average income in the country, and $15/h is basically the median wage. I think it would sort of be insane to implement that there
PoliGAF 2017 |OT4| The leaks are coming from inside the white house
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Yup. Trump won on BUILDING A FUCKING BORDER WALL.
It isn't feasible nor realistic, and yet.
Fenderputty
Banned
If we know $15 is just some arbitrary number and that a lower number would be a workable / likely solution, why not just run on that lower number that's still a lot higher than the current national standard?
BoogieWoogie
Banned
But the messaging is people want to be paid more and the Dems want to pay them more. It's easy to translate.
Sure. My point is, would that underlying sentiment be galvanized with "more funding for ICE, more comprehensive immigration policy, reassessing DACA"?
No.
I know we've been talking Manchin and WV, but the effect of doing that here in Indiana would be the same. It's so unrealistic for the state that it would fail from the start. Super easy to attack for being fiscally irresponsible. If "$15 minimum wage" is the messaging, Donnelly may as well not run for reelection.
Can you please cite to something that supports the above?
benicillin
Banned
It would have been smart to do that before maybe but $15 is already out there and waffling on it now would be a mistake. Just roll with it and be consistent.
VendettaRed07
Member
Because the lower number isn't exciting to the coastal liberals who don't really know or care how a $15 minimum wage would impact the lower income rural communities.
Futurevoid
Member
Hence why the party platform being "We support a living wage for all Americans" provides a sellable statement that candidates can unify around without the Manchins of the world saying "Well, golly gee that $15/hr thing just won't work in West Virginia". Well, no problem Joe! We got you covered since I'm sure you want your constituents to be able to afford to live without sucking on the government teet, right?
Not to mention, it provides a nice future bridge for a possible evolution into the introduction of a UBI if the country shifts enough in that direction.
benicillin
Banned
Livable wage is nice to say but I get the feeling it doesn't mean anything to most people. You have to actually give them a tangible number.
Looking at possibly contested senate seats next cycle, here are there median hourly wages:
https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oessrcst.htm
Idaho - 15.77
Oregon - 18.26
Colorado - 19.09
South Dakota - 15.19
Kansas - 16.57
Oklahoma - 15.93
Iowa - 16.72
Arkansas - 14.72
Louisiana - 15.73
Texas - 17.06
Illinois - 18.40
Kentucky - 15.96
New Hampshire - 18.40
North Carolina - 16.31
South Carolina - 15.45
Georgia - 16.51
The issue w/ the "$15" number is that the initial heavy messaging came from a union-backed advocacy campaign targeting urban areas. It's since spread way outside of that.
https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oessrcst.htm
Idaho - 15.77
Oregon - 18.26
Colorado - 19.09
South Dakota - 15.19
Kansas - 16.57
Oklahoma - 15.93
Iowa - 16.72
Arkansas - 14.72
Louisiana - 15.73
Texas - 17.06
Illinois - 18.40
Kentucky - 15.96
New Hampshire - 18.40
North Carolina - 16.31
South Carolina - 15.45
Georgia - 16.51
The issue w/ the "$15" number is that the initial heavy messaging came from a union-backed advocacy campaign targeting urban areas. It's since spread way outside of that.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
I don't care about the messaging or being targets.
I care about it being a ridiculously stupid and not well thought out campaign strategy.
I'm not a fan of the "It has to be $15 or they can't market it!" line of thinking. Get the right people behind a campaign and you can market anything.
"Livable wage" is the type of scared shit the Dems have always done.
GO WITH WHAT YOU THINK WORKS AND FUCKING SELL IT.
Come on!
It's me, living here my entire life. The cost of living here does not warrant that type of pay. You can't tell small business owners they need to pay their seventeen year old part time workers $15 an hour. Not in this state. You could run on "living wage" or "fair wage" but if you throw out that number you're going to lose, because the number of people who find it crazy and vote is much higher than the number of people who'd benefit from it and vote.
Futurevoid
Member
It's not exactly hard to work whatever number is worthwhile into a speech at a local level while not immediately clashing with the parties overall national message. Dissent that you're already seeing happen with the whole "Better Deal" initiative...
Fenderputty
Banned
I suppose, but the attack that "$15 an hour MW will kill jobs" is coming and it isn't necessarily inaccurate depending on the local area. Another poster brought up "livable" wage", and I think that's a good idea. It's a more broad concept and it's harder to single out and attack. It should be just as easy for Dem's to message too. It also won't bite them in the ass when they eventually pass a $12 minimum wage.
Coastal liberals are all living in Cities that are lifting the minimum wage to $15 an hour already and are voting Dem regardless of messaging. This is purely to prevent attacks from the right to scare away moderates.
This is a different argument. If the party really doesn't think it works - based on good, solid, well researched and well-funded data - that's another matter.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Except, again, look at single-payer. Would it be great? Of course. Would the tax increases also make people run for the hills? Yes. You may like a lot of things, but you have to be realistic about what Average Joe Voter and Average Employer are going to do when these things are enacted or you run the risk of screwing yourselves over for future elections.
Sorry, to me this is how you lose elections. If you think it is the best, most effective plan - go with it and sell it to people.
Fenderputty
Banned
balladofwindfishes
Member
Roland_Gunner
Member
We've never effectively doubled the minimum wage in large parts of the country so what kind of data are you looking for? But how can people not expect massive dislocations on those areas? The economies in places like WV and rural Indiana are based on cheap relatively unskilled labor. That's their competitive advantage. If the labor isn't any cheaper there than in Seattle or Chicago why not make everything closer to consumer hubs?
benicillin
Banned
Unfortunately having the most effective plan doesn't win elections.
In 1938 the minimum wage was implemented. It was a modest raise in the US. It was a crazy astronomical one for Puerto Rico, which they forgot to expempt. Puerto Rico's economy got devastated by it and they had to get a fix implemented 2 years later. https://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/...age-1938-caused-huge-unemployment-puerto-rico
Futurevoid
Member
It's almost as if the fissure in the Democratic party nationally is playing out in this thread.
I mean that's exactly what we're talking about, no? The Obama/Hilary pragmatic wing that wants a more measured approach versus the Bernie run to the left and never look back approach.
I tend to be more of a pragmatist but then I also live in PA and am surrounded by people that I know will never vote in favor of a $15 minimum wage or single payer when presented to them in the way you're talking about. Talk to them about a living wage that keeps people off of welfare or them having to subsidize others and a public option that acts as a supplement/backup to private insurance and you're getting somewhere. While you don't get immediate buy-in - the response isn't "Fuck off lefty!". So my bias may be showing in that regard.
Fenderputty
Banned
This is an issue. How many "middle class" people making median or just above median wage start to be against something like this because "a burger flipper shouldn't make as much as I do. Why don't I just go flip burgers". This argument is common ON GAF for Christ's sake.
Granted the new pressures on the lower end of the labor market should cause shifts in the labor market so that everyone makes more, but that's an effect that isn't immediately felt, nor is it a concept that's grasped by most.
VendettaRed07
Member
I agree with this. It is catchy and will probably work at exciting the numbers we need to get out.
But we likely will never have the numbers to actually implement it.
I'd like to see the push for it create a wave that gets places like NY, New England and the West coast to pass it on the state level, like NY did with free college.
NY did pass it on the state level.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
just introduce sector-level collective bargaining and let the unions set the minimum wages for each industry and then we can get rid of the federal minimum wage
VendettaRed07
Member
Single payer is a much more workable plan than 50 state 15$ minimum wage. If anything it helps rural communities and smaller businesses by getting employers off of having to provide health insurance plans and saving lower wage earners money on healthcare costs
They also exempted Suburbs and Rural areas, IIRC. It wasn't $15 statewide.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Okay, and whats the problem with rolling this out on a national level, with similar thresholds/caveats?
VendettaRed07
Member
Actually it's going to hit $15, just not until later than the City. The City as a whole will have it by the end of 2019, Long Island and Westchester are getting it by 2021, but Upstate isn't getting it until much later.
http://swcllp.com/new-york-state-minimum-wage-increase-chart/
whyamihere
Banned
This.
It's not a surprise that Schumer's National rate plan... looks exactly like the rural NYState plan lol
BoogieWoogie
Banned
Does anyone else find it weird that we have no idea where the heck Flynn and Manafort are?
Greigor The Fellhand
Member
my guess?
Protective custody, monitored 24 hours a day.
Putin had the scientists killed that made the drugs to cheat the Olympic doping tests.
Protective custody, monitored 24 hours a day.
Putin had the scientists killed that made the drugs to cheat the Olympic doping tests.
So Mueller just brought on an expert in international terrorism. What in the name of fuck are they even finding at this point? I mean goddamn, it's like they're planning to rob a casino of crime or something.
If it works, it works.
If it works, it works.
This seems likely.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
What kind of talk is this?
Greigor The Fellhand
Member
it makes sense.
--- edit----
so I would not be surprised in the least bit, if we find out part of Russia's interference may have involve terror related plots.
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