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[kirblar]

The ACA isn't out of the woods yet but it seems clear to me that it pushed the conversation of the role of government in healthcare pretty far to the left than it was 8 years ago. So far left that single-payer, which still has hurdles to cross to be fair, is now a realistic conversation to have. If we are going to have an honest conversation about where we are headed as a country and what the Democrats need to do next, we have to at least acknowledge where we have moved in the past decade.

I can get fucking married. (and yes, I know not to credit the Democratic party as an institution for that) But to those complaining that the country hasn't "moved left", that means nothing to them.

 

[PBY]

This does not work. You can't micro-manage from that level. You are setting a baseline. Nothing more. Let federalism do the rest.

No other fucking country in the world evolved into the stupid employer-sponsored Healthcare setup because most other countries in the world didn't put wage caps in place (that exempted benefits) during WWII!

The ACA was a gigantic step lefward (when we couldn't get a public option through the Senate) but the next time we take power

How old are you? Because you seem to be incredibly unaware of how party cycles typically ebb and flow in this country. Where your feelings tell you Trump is a "historic" defeat (even though it was by a hair in the EC , we won the popular vote by a significant margin, and gained House/Senate seats) Democrats have won the popular vote in the past 4/5 presidential elections, and the EC robbed us of two of those victories! RRR->RDD->DDD->DRR->RRR is the normal cycle of politics in this country. History doesn't repeat, but it sure does rhyme.

I'm 30 - Trump is a historic defeat.

I just hate the sugarcoat bullshit that many Liberals do patting themselves on the back as our country fucking implodes. Sure, we've had victories - as has much of the developed world given that the universe has just generally trended towards progress.

I just look at numbers around income inequality and am dumbfounded that anyone could see any sort of accomplishment there.

Its this aspect of neoliberalism that absolutely infuriates me - I can appreciate the historic achievements and victories, while still looking around the world and taking stock of where the USA actually is.

edit: To sum it up - we've moved very far leftward, but the USA is still very much center-right in many (if not all) aspects. Progress is definitely there, but I have a hard time not getting frustrated at that reality.

 

[Fenderputty]

We've discussed this. You carve out areas that it won't work in. But some of yall are hell bent on not changing anything. And the party will keep losing, the message has to be bold and sweeping.

We have discussed this and you've still not said how we "carve out" areas that it won't work in. Minimum wage is supposed to be the FLOOR. Setting the national floor at areas that work for urban city centers is a problem.

The ACA isn't out of the woods yet but it seems clear to me that it pushed the conversation of the role of government in healthcare pretty far to the left than it was 8 years ago.

People keep saying this and it isn't accurate, at all

http://www.gallup.com/poll/4708/healthcare-system.aspx

In 2007 there were so many people losing their houses to bankruptcy that people viewed healthcare as a right. Way more than they currently do. Then we elected a black man and the GOP hate machine started and positions changed. They changed so much that after 2008 polling swapped and for the first time ever more people felt the government should stay out of healthcare than they thought should be in it.

There's a reason I was concerned with how the Democrats message "medicare for all", because it's going to be blasted to hell and back. EDIT: We're still not even close to back to pre 2008 levels

 

[PBY]

We have discussed this and you've still not said how we "carve out" areas that it won't work in. Minimum wage is supposed to be the FLOOR. Setting the national floor at areas that work for urban city centers is a problem.

You could presumably have exceptions for areas (presumably rural areas) that given certain threshold metrics would not benefit from such a floor, and tailor their floor accordingly. My concern is that you need to go out with something simple, tangible and bold.

 

[kirblar]

I'm 30 - Trump is a historic defeat.

I just hate the sugarcoat bullshit that many Liberals do patting themselves on the back as our country fucking implodes. Sure, we've had victories - as has much of the developed world given that the universe has just generally trended towards progress.

I just look at numbers around income inequality and am dumbfounded that anyone could see any sort of accomplishment there.

Its this aspect of neoliberalism that absolutely infuriates me - I can appreciate the historic achievements and victories, while still looking around the world and taking stock of where the USA actually is.

edit: To sum it up - we've moved very far leftward, but the USA is still very much center-right in many (if not all) aspects. Progress is definitely there, but I have a hard time not getting frustrated at that reality.

Venezeula.

The UK.

Mexico.

Russia.

History is not a one-way guaranteed track to "progress". You have to work for it and those gains are worth celebrating.

Trump was an anomaly that left a brain-drained GOP w/ a Manchurian Jimmy Carter and a caucus incapable of actually passing any serious legislation.

You could presumably have exceptions for areas (presumably rural areas) that given certain threshold metrics would not benefit from such a floor, and tailor their floor accordingly. My concern is that you need to go out with something simple, tangible and bold.

You let local states and cities raise it themselves, generally because they'll know their own shit better than some guy in Washington trying to draft a law to account for an impossible number of knowable variables! Federalism is not a bad thing!

 

[PBY]

You let local states and cities raise it themselves, generally because they'll know their own shit better than some guy in Washington trying to draft a law to account for an impossible number of knowable variables! Federalism is not a bad thing!

Many of these areas are deep red areas that simply won't though?

 

[Fenderputty]

You could presumably have exceptions for areas (presumably rural areas) that given certain threshold metrics would not benefit from such a floor, and tailor their floor accordingly. My concern is that you need to go out with something simple, tangible and bold.

That's not a "floor"! A floor is a national baseline where larger cities can go above and beyond because their cost of living can support such a change.

$12 and hour is still "BOLD" for many of these rural areas and won't have the negative effects a $15 an hour increase would.

 

[kirblar]

Many of these areas are deep red areas that simply won't though?

Yes. That's why we're doing it for them!

We don't want to kill them! (well, unless you're a psychopathic liberal)

We establish a minimum baseline. Others can build on top of that.

 

[Plinko]

Ivo Daalder‏Verified account @IvoHDaalder

Ivo Daalder Retweeted Peter Alexander

Total government experience in the room?

Russia: 80+ years

US: Less than 12 months

Ivo Daalder added,
Peter AlexanderVerified account @PeterAlexander
JUST IN: @NBCNews confirms likely only 6 people in room for Friday's Trump-Putin meeting: Tillerson, Lavrov & translators, per official

.

This is fine.

 

[PBY]

That's not a "floor"! A floor is a national baseline where larger cities can go above and beyond because they're cost of living can support such a change.

I mean... we're arguing for the same thing, one just sounds better imo.

 

[kirblar]

I mean... we're arguing for the same thing, one just sounds better imo.

No, you're arguing for a dynamic system. That's not how the federal wage works, nor is it how it should work.

There's a reason the policy proposals are now 15/hr* and support of Single Payer**

*by 2026

**via a first step of implementation of the Public Option

They're trying to get policy-ignorant people on board who are arguing for things that are at best unfeasible and at worst actively harmful. We'll see how well that goes.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

This is fine.

The fact that McMaster isnt even there says alot.

 

[Fenderputty]

I mean... we're arguing for the same thing, one just sounds better imo.

Will it sound better when a bunch of pissed of kids aren't getting $15 and hour because the dems are weak chicken shits who can't do anything they promise?

I mean ... the GOP is going through hell because they over promised on the ACA repeal.

 

[Diablos]

FUCK

2018 just became more important. As if it wasn't enough already...

 

[Crocodile]

People keep saying this and it isn't accurate, at all

http://www.gallup.com/poll/4708/healthcare-system.aspx

In 2007 there were so many people losing their houses to bankruptcy that people viewed healthcare as a right. Way more than they currently do. Then we elected a black man and the GOP hate machine started and positions changed. They changed so much that after 2008 polling swapped and for the first time ever more people felt the government should stay out of healthcare than they thought should be in it.

There's a reason I was concerned with how the Democrats message "medicare for all", because it's going to be blasted to hell and back. EDIT: We're still not even close to back to pre 2008 levels

I mean people want a better ACA right? The only way to do so is to move to the left. They may not end up with single payer soon. But even a public option and some restructuring of the subsidies and taxes as well as some measures to reign in drug prices would be a boon to our healthcare system no? Whatever the end goal ends up being, our healthcare system has moved to the left. That is what the ACA has done, it is now the baseline.

This is fine.

We are going to get fucking rolled >_<

 

[whyamihere]

theresa am cry

@britainelects
Westminster voting intention:

LAB: 46%
CON: 38%
LDEM: 6%
UKIP: 4%
GRN: 1%

(via @YouGov / 05 - 06 Jul)

 

[kirblar]

What does "Westminster" mean in the context of this poll that you like to post? Is it a swing district, a term for parliament in general, etc?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

what that poll proves

really proves

undeniably

is that bernie would have

wait for it

its coming

Spoiler

the primaries are over guys, move on

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Jesus christ, Bam Bam, how do you fall for conservative propaganda so easily.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

What does "Westminster" mean in the context of this poll that you like to post? Is it a swing district, a term for parliament in general, etc?

Parliament sits in the Palace of Westminster. That's national voting intention for parliament as a whole.

Similarly, the Scottish Parliament is often referred to informally as Holyrood, the Welsh Assembly as The Senedd, and the Northern Irish Assembly as Stormont.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

yeah but what if Labour has a COMPETENT leader

 

[hydragonwarrior]

I'm 30 - Trump is a historic defeat.

I just hate the sugarcoat bullshit that many Liberals do patting themselves on the back as our country fucking implodes. Sure, we've had victories - as has much of the developed world given that the universe has just generally trended towards progress.

I just look at numbers around income inequality and am dumbfounded that anyone could see any sort of accomplishment there.

Its this aspect of neoliberalism that absolutely infuriates me - I can appreciate the historic achievements and victories, while still looking around the world and taking stock of where the USA actually is.

edit: To sum it up - we've moved very far leftward, but the USA is still very much center-right in many (if not all) aspects. Progress is definitely there, but I have a hard time not getting frustrated at that reality.

Agreed. I know historically there are swings, but Dems are doing absolutely nothing about the conservative media - they are literally using hope as a strategy that ppl eventually open their eyes and the numbers don't swing too far in the Republican territory by the time they get back into power.

 

[Autodidact]

Jesus christ, Bam Bam, how do you fall for conservative propaganda so easily.

If that bitch Hillary Pebbles had just articulated coherent policy...

 

[whyamihere]

oops!

http://wjla.com/news/nation-world/s...s-bernie-sanders-wife-admits-info-was-hearsay

MONTPELIER, Vt. (AP) -- A Republican lawyer who reported independent U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders and his wife to federal officials was passing on information he heard from a GOP lawmaker who said he didn't have direct knowledge of the allegations.

The lawyer, Brady Toensing, sent letters to the U.S. attorney for Vermont and the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. alleging that Sen. Sanders pressured a bank to approve a loan to a now-closed college run by Sanders' wife.

The source of that information was Republican State Rep. Don Turner, the minority leader of the Vermont House.

Turner told WCAX-TV that friends at the bank described pressure from Sanders' office, but he says those friends didn't have direct knowledge of the negotiations. Turner says he told Toensing about it in May 2016, adding that he would not have brought it to the attention of federal investigators.

Toensing, an attorney who served as Donald Trump's Vermont representative during last year's presidential campaign, said Monday he was standing by the allegation.

"This was not a country store, cracker-barrel rant," Toensing said. He noted that hearsay is used by investigators to develop direct evidence.

Turner did not immediately return a message left by The Associated Press on Monday.

The Vermont weekly newspaper Seven Days first reported late Friday that Turner was the source of Toensing's information.

 

[Box of Kittens]

yeah but what if Labour has a STRONG AND STABLE leader

Fixed.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

yeah but what if Labour has a COMPETENT leader

fully automated luxury gay space communism

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

What kind of talk is this?

Bam Bam, do you even know the definition of "Jihad"?

 

[whyamihere]

Fixed.

C O A L I T I O N O F C H A O S

 

[kirblar]

Parliament sits in the Palace of Westminster. That's national voting intention for parliament as a whole.

Similarly, the Scottish Parliament is often referred to informally as Holyrood, the Welsh Assembly as The Senedd, and the Northern Irish Assembly as Stormont.

England really lucked out w/ their name, huh?

 

[whyamihere]

I think it's pretty bad that there are some people who have convinced ourselves that our country is so right wing that they're afraid of trying to put out any real left wing proposals for fear of electoral backlash.

 

[Fenderputty]

I mean people want a better ACA right? The only way to do so is to move to the left. They may not end up with single payer soon. But even a public option and some restructuring of the subsidies and taxes as well as some measures to reign in drug prices would be a boon to our healthcare system no? Whatever the end goal ends up being, our healthcare system has moved to the left. That is what the ACA has done, it is now the baseline.



We are going to get fucking rolled >_<

My point in posting that was to kinda of shed some perspective on this here. Prior to 2008 more people felt the federal government should have a roll in healthcare than they currently do. Even after the ACA has become more popular. Even after the GOP shenanigans.

The idea that Dems can just run on "medicare for all" and have everyone come running to the polls seems short sighted to me. The hate machine will roll out and it will have an effect on public perception of the federal governments roll in healthcare.

In fact, the graph I posted is kinda of depressing me. 2007 was the peak of when people felt the feds had a roll and all we got out of it was the ACA without a public option.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

When is the ACA officially "Safe"? Isnt there a deadline or something.

 

[kirblar]

I think it's pretty bad that there are some people who have convinced ourselves that our country is so right wing that they're afraid of trying to put out any real left wing proposals for fear of electoral backlash.

I can't tell who you're subtweeting here? (If it's Mark Penn, subtweet away)

W/ the minimum wage I genuinely believe it would hurt a lot of people if we went to $15/hr nationally. The electoral consequences are secondary to me. I also agree w/ you that getting UHC implemented and HC decoupled from employment are going to be a far bigger boon to business and indidivuals than any Minimum wage increase would be. (as it's a very ineffective tool at fighting poverty) We just disagree on the necessity of single-payer.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Bam Bam, do you even know the definition of "Jihad"?

I mean, let's not pretend the word hasn't become pretty well associated with Islamist terrorism, such that, if you are Linda fucking Sarsour of all people, it probably should not be in your public-facing vocabulary.

 

[Crocodile]

This is is apparently a transcript of Sarsour's speech. There's also apparently video of it out there but I'm not in a place where I can watch any video. If this is an accurate transcript than the whole thing is a giant nothingburger:

Source

More confirmation would be nice though

EDIT: Oh, I didn't know there was a thread in OT about this

My point in posting that was to kinda of shed some perspective on this here. Prior to 2008 more people felt the federal government should have a roll in healthcare than they currently do. Even after the ACA has become more popular. Even after the GOP shenanigans.

The idea that Dems can just run on "medicare for all" and have everyone come running to the polls seems short sighted to me. The hate machine will roll out and it will have an effect on public perception of the federal governments roll in healthcare.

In fact, the graph I posted is kinda of depressing me. 2007 was the peak of when people felt the feds had a roll and all we got out of it was the ACA without a public option.

I agree its not going to be a cake-walk or a done deal. I just think that now that the "floor" has been risen its easier to go further up even if we got to take smaller steps each way.

When is the ACA officially "Safe"? Isnt there a deadline or something.

It's safe in 2018 if the Dems win either chamber of Congress.

 

[shinra-bansho]

$15 is catchy to city 18 year olds almost entirely because of alliteration.

It will also do absolutely nothing about "wealth inequality" because very little will, unless you, I dunno, put land on the ocean or something. Since from memory the Piketty omg 19th century capital bourgeois thing is predicated basically on the increase in housing stock value.

 

[Autodidact]

$15 is catchy to city 18 year olds almost entirely because of alliteration.

Tumble (Tumbl) for Twelve?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I mean, let's not pretend the word hasn't become pretty well associated with Islamist terrorism, such that, if you are Linda fucking Sarsour of all people, it probably should not be in your public-facing vocabulary.

Fuck that noise. It's an incredibly important term and means a huge amount to a lot of people in a deep and personal sense. Maybe they became a better dad to their son, or maybe they donated that little bit more to charity, or maybe they managed to give up alcohol, or maybe they managed to do one of the other millions of forms of jihad that take place on a day to day basis where their faith gave them the strength to be a better person. The fear of the ignorant should never take that away.

 

[Aaron Strife]

When is the ACA officially "Safe"? Isnt there a deadline or something.

When Democrats have the House, Senate or presidency.

Until then keep your guard up.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Tumble (Tumbl) for Twelve?

Fist for $15.

 

[whyamihere]

I can't tell who you're subtweeting here? (If it's Mark Penn, subtweet away)

W/ the minimum wage I genuinely believe it would hurt a lot of people if we went to $15/hr nationally. The electoral consequences are secondary to me. I also agree w/ you that getting UHC implemented and HC decoupled from employment are going to be a far bigger boon to business and indidivuals than any Minimum wage increase would be. (as it's a very ineffective tool at fighting poverty) We just disagree on the necessity of single-payer.

I'm subtweeting Mark Penn, don't worry.

 

[Diablos]

ACA can never really be 100% safe because Tom Price can always wreck it from the inside out.

But McConnell not having the satisfaction of ACA repeal is a beautiful thing

They'll be back though. And if we can't win back a chamber of Congress next year it's fucked for sure. Newt Gingrich is right about that.

 

[kirblar]

ACA can never really be 100% safe because Tom Price can always wreck it from the inside out.

But McConnell not having the satisfaction of ACA repeal is a beautiful thing

Deflating GOP turnout via an ACA non-repeal would be amazing.

 

[Prof. Bathtub]

White supremacists love bragging about symphonies as the pride of Western J&#822;u&#822;d&#822;e&#822;o&#822;-Christian Culture, but what is the only symphony most people know? And what is its message? I wonder.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Fuck that noise. It's an incredibly important term and means a huge amount to a lot of people in a deep and personal sense. Maybe they became a better dad to their son, or maybe they donated that little bit more to charity, or maybe they managed to give up alcohol, or maybe they managed to do one of the other millions of forms of jihad that take place on a day to day basis where their faith gave them the strength to be a better person. The fear of the ignorant should never take that away.

I don't care about it, from a personal sense, and ultimately, Sarsour is about as minor a figure as they come. However, choose to be a political figure, and you either play the lowest common denominator political games or be subject to nonsense like this.

Edit: Wait, are we claiming Beethoven's Fifth Symphony has a white supremacist-friendly message, or is that a genuine question?

 

[Box of Kittens]

I'm subtweeting Mark Penn, don't worry.

Forget policy. The key for the Dems in 2018/2020 is to identify the KEY SWING DEMOGRAPHIC and come up with a pithy name for it, then pander away. I mean, it got Bill Clinton re-elected*

*I suppose GDP growth and falling unemployment played a minor role as well.

 

[tuxfool]

Donald Trump 'has trouble finding hotel room at G20 summit'

Donald Trump has reportedly had trouble getting a hotel room for the upcoming G20 summit in Hamburg, Germany.

His team apparently waited too long to book accommodations for the President and his travelling staff and were told none of the major hotels had vacancies, Buzzfeed reported.

The local newspaper Hamburger Abendblatt reported that the Four Seasons had to turn him away as they were full.

 

[kirblar]

Donald Trump 'has trouble finding hotel room at G20 summit'

What a misleading headline in context of recent events.

 

[Teggy]

Donald Trump 'has trouble finding hotel room at G20 summit'

No trump international in Germany?

White supremacists love bragging about symphonies as the pride of Western J&#822;u&#822;d&#822;e&#822;o&#822;-Christian Culture, but what is the only symphony most people know? And what is its message? I wonder.

Bittersweet Symphony?

Symphony of the Night?

 

[Prof. Bathtub]

Bittersweet Symphony?

Symphony of the Night?

Touché