Carpe Libertatem
Member
It's amazing the lengths the "left" will go to to defend Russia
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PoliGAF 2017 |OT4| The leaks are coming from inside the white house
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Greigor The Fellhand
Member
Not solely a GOP position, you must be foreign to US politics.
DEMS have been for the sanctions, Hilary wanted to expand the sanctions.
Why do you think advanced sanctions passed the senate with 98 votes?
This isn't partisan, this is american, western, and some game damn national pride.
eBay Huckster
Member
pby don't you have some healthcare tweets to panic about rather than continuing to expose your absurd levels of naivete when it comes to literally anything related to russia
I'm not defending Russia. Its a fucking hell hole run by autocrats without any regard for human rights.
I don't think our current sanctions do much to solve the above issues though - but open to hearing a convincing argument to the contrary.
I do think that a ceasefire saves lives. That I support.
Fenderputty
Banned
Heh. It's not the first time, either.
ShironRedshift
Member
It's completely irrelevant. If Obama is weak, the solution is to do better. Not continue to be weak. Why criticize Obama for being weak, but then argue to maintain that same exact weakness/status quo instead of getting the more harsh treatment you seem to want? Doesn't make sense and is just trying to argue out of both sides of your mouth at the same time.
Do you want Russia to be treated more harshly and critically, or not? If so, do so. Otherwise criticizing Obama for being too weak but then at the same time arguing that we should just maintain Obama's weak response to Russia and not dial up the response makes no sense. What are you criticizing Obama for in that case? Which is it?
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
PBY's just continuing his grand tour across every quadrant of the political spectrum on GAF
I mean, there's an argument that the sanctions will generally have a disproportionate impact on the Russian people who probably don't have a whole lot of control over what the Russian Government does at this point.
But how many times have Russia really done anything in good faith?
But how many times have Russia really done anything in good faith?
Just tired of war. We don't even know if the sanctions have been lifted.
A Serious Man
Member
Well, Obama didn't start a war with Russia during an election so I guess we should reward them by lifting sanctions.
Fenderputty
Banned
This is a pretty consistent position with him regarding the Russia stuff. It's just not that important to him.
IIRC the sanctions actually hurt the oligarchs the most. Or at least had a significant impact.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
What if we "give peace a chance" though?
tedrotheredro
Member
Carpe Libertatem
Member
But why do you think Russia would even honor this ceasefire, when they consistently have shown that they don't give a shit?
The onus is on Russia to prove they aren't interested in more war, not us. We can remove the sanctions when they've shown that they are sincere.
This ceasefire doesn't do much to change the fact that Russia literally annexed Crimea.
Beer Monkey
Member
Worked so well in the 30s!
So it seems ICE is about to go apeshit >_<
Well I mean they are going to need some bases in the US to fuck with our next elections won't they? Gotta make thins easy/convenient for them no?
Well I mean they are going to need some bases in the US to fuck with our next elections won't they? Gotta make thins easy/convenient for them no?
Box of Kittens
Banned
It doesn't really matter whether we "want" a cold war. Russia's goal is to destabilize the West in order to fulfill their expansionist goals. Attempts to de-escalate aren't going to change that.
I never thought I'd long for the days of "it's fucking happening" but here we are.
I never thought I'd long for the days of "it's fucking happening" but here we are.
Beer Monkey
Member
WaPo, it's time to drop your big story, we're going to need it today after Trump tries to sell our sovereignty to our greatest enemy.
damn
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
Russia has absolutely no interest in a real war with the US. There are certain red lines he won't cross but Putin is going to push the envelope in every direction. The solution to that is not just backing down every time because we don't want war. Nobody wants war, but Putin is playing our country for fucking fools.
Seems like that's been the memo/order since February.
Futurevoid
Member
Not sure I understand what's changed?
The memo was from February and is already being followed. So why would ICE being going "apeshit" now? They already have been as proven by the notable uptick in immigrants detained with no criminal record at all that we've seen in previous months, no? The memo also follows the wording of Trump's EO in regard to immigration, etc. It seems like its been the status quo since he signed the EO. It's a shitty and broad status quo that should be condemned but its status quo nonetheless.
Abinash117
Member
A ceasefire in southwest Syria really isn't a big thing and is likely to be broken. First I assume they are talking about the southern rebels near Daraa. Firstly, there are clashes and attacks on the city by the rebels they have been wanting to get for years, but Jordan and USA backs them and in the last few years restrained them from attacking city because the failed last time. They have only been spontaneous clashes every now and then until recently, but I think they largely stopped now.
Anyway, doing a ceasefire is mostly unnecessary and pointless unless you have rebels and the government to agree to it. That is how ceasefires work, even if the US backs them they do not have complete control over them and the government wants Daraa because it was not part of the other agreement between Russia,Syria, Rebels, SA, Turkey, etc. So unless USA backs up a threat to the rebels in the south ( which not happen because Trump has shown no interest in foreign policy), than the ceasefire is for show.
Lastly, you kind of do not negotiate actions that has nothing to do with the current situation. Basically, you don't agree to lift sanctions for a ceasefire in southeast Syria because the sanctions has to do with Crimea. It is a bad deal. A better deal is having Russia stop meddling and stop hacking, however, that means Russia has to attempt to it, so that is not going to happen. How I see this it might be a pretext for lifting the sanctions.
It just seems that you just want deescalation( including moving on from the Russia scandal) and willing to give Russia something just so it can happen.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
In the long picture Russia is small potatoes, we really indeed to focus on containment of China in the SC sea. Really is counterproductive to let Russia get big enough where they need to be the focus of American international interests. This is a problem where we need strong containment from the EU with US backing.
IggyChooChoo
Member
Exactly this. PBY is lucky to not live in a place where Russians are trying to hack the local nuclear plant. Not all of us have that privilege.
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
This, you're just "de-escalating" the likelihood of the shit that isn't going to happen (a shooting war with Russia, because Russia would get fucking immolated), in exchange for ignoring the shit they'll actually do.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
the MOAR SANCTIONS brigade needs to explain how 1) sanctions have eroded puntin's domestic support 2)changed putins geopolitical posture relative to the US, Syria or Ukraine 3) how many times ever worked in the past the only time ( I can recall was with Iran and that's a much more complicated story than unilateral US and EU sanctions.)
more sanctions is a lazy way for people to feel they're doing something. there is no answer to a lot of these things. Russia is a world power, the US can't dictate everything to them.
Russia will "win" things when the US is unwilling to make hard choices (it bet right on Crimea and Syria the US didn't have the will to act)
there's a lot to be said about targeted sanctions and not lifting them wholesale but you can't just scream "more sanctions"
more sanctions is a lazy way for people to feel they're doing something. there is no answer to a lot of these things. Russia is a world power, the US can't dictate everything to them.
Russia will "win" things when the US is unwilling to make hard choices (it bet right on Crimea and Syria the US didn't have the will to act)
there's a lot to be said about targeted sanctions and not lifting them wholesale but you can't just scream "more sanctions"
To put a bow on this:
1- Russia tried to interfere w/ our election. Its unclear to what extent, if at all, they affected the outcome.
2- Obama placed sanctions on Russia for the foregoing.
3- How are those sanctions preventing Russia from interfering w/ future elections? That part doesn't seem clear to me at all.
4- Compare the above with the monthly death numbers from Syria.
That's all I'm saying. I need to see evidence that these sanctions are in any way a deterrent to future bad actions from Russia.
1- Russia tried to interfere w/ our election. Its unclear to what extent, if at all, they affected the outcome.
2- Obama placed sanctions on Russia for the foregoing.
3- How are those sanctions preventing Russia from interfering w/ future elections? That part doesn't seem clear to me at all.
4- Compare the above with the monthly death numbers from Syria.
That's all I'm saying. I need to see evidence that these sanctions are in any way a deterrent to future bad actions from Russia.
Please don't make this a discussion about privilege, bc that's a REALLY interesting and problematic reading of this word imo.
We're off the rails if we're talking about conspiracy theories to hack fucking nukes (and yes, I've read the reports). Come on.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
OPEC crashed oil prices to fuck Russia up. Economically attacking them is a way to respond!
Wait - does everyone agree that there should be more? Citation needed.
TheLaughingStock
Member
but the sanctions ARE targeted, and lifting them wholesale is exactly what I don't want to see happen until we're provided with a meaningful change in their involvement in Ukraine.
Greigor The Fellhand
Member
to PBY and NYC man
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/whats-been-the-effect-of-western-sanctions-on-russia/
read this.
Sanctions have effect and you are either blind or not paying attention to see the effects.
We need more sanctions placed against russia to further curb this behavior.
ridiculous
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/whats-been-the-effect-of-western-sanctions-on-russia/
read this.
Sanctions have effect and you are either blind or not paying attention to see the effects.
We need more sanctions placed against russia to further curb this behavior.
ridiculous
Greigor The Fellhand
Member
thank you, for this link.
The article you posted just said their economy was hurt and that it likely would lead to social unrest in Russia.
How is that solving ANY of the problems the sanctions seek to target?
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