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PoliGAF 2017 |OT4| The leaks are coming from inside the white house

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Box of Kittens

Banned
Slizeezyc said:
Yeah pretty sure he didn't want to give employees healthcare or some shit while living in his pizza castle.
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He made a big deal out of having to raise the price of a pizza a few cents in order to give healthcare to his employees.

Of course I never cared much for Papa John's pizza anyway (it's too sweet) and living in one of the best pizza cities in the country, there's no reason for me to ever get their pizza anyway.
 
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kirblar

Member
TumblingHippo said:
Just feels like Democrats are just falling back on "work" being the only thing that matters in this country. Especially as their base is leaning more toward socialism I'm not sure how much a "yay capitalism" message will ignite them.
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What "socialism" means to a number of those people isn't "not capitalism."

This is the problem when the word runs the gamut from Social Democracy (which is very much capitalist) to full on Marxist (which will win you elections in the low single digits nationwide)

see:
DFHF7vRW0AATQpk.jpg:large
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Subtract "Capitalism" from "Free Enterprise" and you probably have your confused overlap.
 
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TumblingHippo

Member
kirblar said:
What "socialism" means to a number of those people isn't "not capitalism."

This is the problem when the word runs the gamut from Social Democracy (which is very much capitalist) to full on Marxist (which will win you elections in the low single digits nationwide)

see:

Subtract "Capitalism" from "Free Enterprise" and you probably have your confused overlap.
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I like the idea that you can own a business, work all your life, and make a ton of money (hopefully not on the backs of a bunch of underpaid workers).

I also like the idea that some people don't have to work, but should still be able to eat, have a home, and get medical care. Can that exist with Capitalism?
 
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kirblar

Member
TumblingHippo said:
I like the idea that you can own a business, work all your life, and make a ton of money (hopefully not on the backs of a bunch of underpaid workers).

I also like the idea that some people don't have to work, but should still be able to eat, have a home, and get medical care. Can that exist with Capitalism?
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Yes. It's called a welfare state w/ a strong social safety net!
 
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TumblingHippo

Member
kirblar said:
Yes. It's called a welfare state w/ a strong social safety net!
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Been sort of conditioned most of my life (lol thanks GOP) that "welfare state" has huge negative connotations. What could be done to turn that around? So many people hate the idea that others can exist without working (probably because they hate their own jobs so much) that what can you do to convince them that safety net is a-ok?

I knew someone who got laid off, no fault of his own, and refused to apply for unemployment and obamacare because he was so against the idea. He had no problem from taking his daddy's money tho.
 
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tbm24

Member
Paches said:
Let's workshop this. Drop skills and add America to the end.
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I think skills are important. Trade Skills need to be promoted and with that comes the issue of re-training as industries die. I don't want Dems to suddenly stop advocating re-training while pushing for better jobs.
 
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Teggy

Member
Why is Jill Stein scooping the Democrats?

I noticed she tweeted out in support of reparations the other day.

Edit: OMG Jeff Stein LOL
 
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kirblar

Member
TumblingHippo said:
Been sort of conditioned most of my life (lol thanks GOP) that "welfare state" has huge negative connotations. What could be done to turn that around? So many people hate the idea that others can exist without working (probably because they hate their own jobs so much) that what can you do to convince them that safety net is a-ok?

I knew someone who got laid off, no fault of his own, and refused to apply for unemployment and obamacare because he was so against the idea. He had no problem from taking his daddy's money tho.
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You can't. At least, you don't market it that way. You have to weasel around it because so many white people don't want benefits going to those people.

When speaking in economic/governance terms of how various countries structure their policies, though, that's what it is. There's no getting around it and thus I'm not interested in trying to account for people's potential negative feelings when trying to discuss policy on that level.
tbm24 said:
I think skills are important. Trade Skills need to be promoted and with that comes the issue of re-training as industries die. I don't want Dems to suddenly stop advocating re-training while pushing for better jobs.
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The problem is that retraining doesn't help when there just aren't jobs where these people live anymore. (It's also a problem w/ net competency, as the minimum bar to where you're hirabale and useful to an employer has been slowly going up over time.)
 
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Paches

Member
tbm24 said:
I think skills are important. Trade Skills need to be promoted and with that comes the issue of re-training as industries die. I don't want Dems to suddenly stop advocating re-training while pushing for better jobs.
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I agree that retraining is critical, but I don't know if it comes across well in a slogan. Sounds kind of like "your job is useless or dying, you need to learn something else", which could be true, but comes off bad to me I guess.
 
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Ogodei

Member
balladofwindfishes said:
It doesn't really matter either way. Paul + Collins kills the bill until McCain comes back/retires and is replaced and that won't happen for awhile.
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Right now the wall seems to be Collins/Murkowski/Paul. Paul said he's down for MTP but only if "every plan gets a vote" or some shit that McConnell won't allow because it'd make everything into more of a circus than it already is.

You're starting to see some wavering on Motion to Proceed from some of the others, though, which is troubling.
 
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balladofwindfishes

Member
Ogodei said:
Right now the wall seems to be Collins/Murkowski/Paul. Paul said he's down for MTP but only if "every plan gets a vote" or some shit that McConnell won't allow because it'd make everything into more of a circus than it already is.

You're starting to see some wavering on Motion to Proceed from some of the others, though, which is troubling.
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As of last night they had around 40 votes for the motion to proceed.

I doubt they got around 10 people to flip in under 24 hours with no changes to the bill.

Whose wavering?
 
B

Box of Kittens

Banned
Among factors that will impact how Democrats perform in 2018, the slogan is, well, a non-factor. It's a way for consultants to pretend they're contributing.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
balladofwindfishes said:
As of last night they had around 40 votes for the motion to proceed.

I doubt they got around 10 people to flip in under 24 hours with no changes to the bill.
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I believe that was about the repeal-only bill.

What's making this so confusing is that Trump has advocated for like five different approaches in the last three days.
 
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Joe Shlabotnik

Banned
BoogieWoogie said:
HOW WILL DEMOCRATS EVER BE ABLE TO KEEP UP WITH THE SLOGANS OF THE RIGHT

DFMvQVIUQAAFNyy.jpg
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Make America Great Again is probably the best and most effective political slogan in not-so-recent memory. Unfortunately it beats out Yes We Can.

Not only is it supremely catchy, but it also speaks to a deep-seated bitterness, darkness and revanchism under a deceptively inspiring veneer. It is the ultimate conman sale. It is the Alpha Dogwhistle. It is full of terrible promise.

It is literally the only thing about Trump or his campaign that I might consider a work of "evil genius".
 
S

Snowman Prophet of Doom

Member
Poodlestrike said:
I dunno, she can do both. She was at that RT shindig with Flynn.
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kirblar said:
Why not both?
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Because what I've read and seen of her suggests she is more of a foolish (i.e. any opposition to American imperialism is good, even if it's Putin) than a bad person. My suspicion is the SJC is checking on everything there are rumors about to be thorough, moreso than that there is specific evidence linking Stein to Putin.
 
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kirblar

Member
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
Because what I've read and seen of her suggests she is more of a foolish (i.e. any opposition to American imperialism is good, even if it's Putin) than a bad person. My suspicion is the SJC is checking on everything there are rumors about to be thorough, moreso than that there is specific evidence linking Stein to Putin.
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She actively hides her own views on Vaccination in order to pander to anti-Vaxxers.

She's a bad person.
 
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