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PoliGAF 2017 |OT5| The Man In the High Chair

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I don't think history bears that out.

Look at what I posted on the last page, Obama and Bill Clinton both used heavily racist rhetoric (and Clinton much more in public policy) to appeal to voters in order to win their victories.

The backlash over the CRA, VRA and especially the FHA and LBJ's acknowledgment that white people carried the responsibility for the poverty and state of black communities was arguably perhaps the major catalysts for the rise of conservatism in the 1970s and Reagan's victory.

One of the key elements of the New Democrats that rose in the late 80s was the embrace of diet racism. Being black was alright to them if you were the Huxtables, but those thugs in the ghetto need to be brought to heel!
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
I agree with most of this. But some of the racist vote needs to be won over, the question is how to do it without actually caving into white supremacy.

I think Racism is on a sliding scale.

There will be a point for many of those voters where "enough is enough".

Keep the National messaging the same, if a canidate like Manchin wants to modify his messaging, that's ok.

Ultimately, assuming Trump makes it to 2020, those who want a Racist/Xenophobic Economic Liberal won't have anyone to vote for.
That people were gullible enough to think Trump would be moderate or liberal in economic policy, is another matter, but it won't have much pull next election.
 
Look at what I posted on the last page, Obama and Bill Clinton both used heavily racist rhetoric (and Clinton much more in public policy) to appeal to voters in order to win their victories.

There's truth to this in some campaign rhetoric, but I would never couch Obama's administration as one that caved into white supremacy. Though I'm not advocating for adopting even that language from 2008.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Ultimately, assuming Trump makes it to 2020, those who want a Racist/Xenophobic Economic Liberal won't have anyone to vote for.
That people were gullible enough to think Trump would be moderate or liberal in economic policy, is another matter, but it won't have much pull next election.

Part of the problem here is that Trump's message appeals so precisely to a certain segment of these people. The xenophobia + the reassurance that all the good stuff will still be kept around "for the good folks like us". That's a hard message to beat. I'm guessing a lot of those people are losing respect for Trump right now, but how do you out-promise the next Trump-like figure to run on the same strategy ?
 
One would think "both sides doing it" would actually be enough of a reason to get rid gerrymandering. What the fuck lol
The thing is, both sides do do it (heheh, doodoo) - when they're given the chance.

The nature of the Midwest is such that outside of Illinois and maybe Minnesota, none of these states will ever have a Dem trifecta drawing the lines for themselves. Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Florida (not Midwest but I'll lump it in here because it also applies) - the most you can ever hope for in these states is that they elect a Democratic governor who can force compromise maps, and that there's not a supermajority in the state legislature making their veto power a moot point.

Combine that with GOP dominance in the South, that means the Republicans are guaranteed partial to total control of redistricting for a huge swath of the country. The other parts are Dem strongholds which are either so strongly Dem and the states so small that it doesn't really make a difference (Northeast), or they have nonpartisan redistricting schemes that make it impossible to gerrymander (California, New York, New Jersey, Washington). On paper, that's a good thing, but it's a crippling handicap for all the blue states to go for this neat and tidy good governance crap while the red states completely do not give a shit.

Unless there's such a huge swing that we can pick up a bunch of these state legislatures (which are ALSO gerrymandered), the most we can probably do in many states post-2020 is neutral maps. Which is still a big upgrade from where we are now, but this is why it'd be nice for the Court to establish a national standard. Even if those swing states have fair maps, the deck is still going to be pretty heavily stacked against us thanks to states like Texas, Georgia and North Carolina having horrid GOP-drawn maps that at best will be struck down by like 2028 after the GOP has already won every state election under said maps.
 

NoName999

Member
I don't think history bears that out.

The Lost Cause

The New Deal excluding minorities

Roosevelt internment camps

Lydon "He'll empty his pockets for you"Johnson

Lyndon "We've lost the South for a generation" Johnson when he signed the Civil Rights Act and the racists jumped to the GOP ever since

Nixon's Southern Stratgey

Reagan's welfare queen comments

Clinton's crime bill

Bush II's War on Terror. Even if he, himself, knew we weren't at War with Islam. It was still presented as that

Obama idiotically trying to be the good one. And how the disillusion came in once "If I had a son, he'd look liked Trayvon"

And how in 2016, the GOP tried to cut back on racism against Latinos only for Donald Trump to crush his GOP rivals with "Mexicans are rapists" and teh Wall.

At some point, the left is gonna have to realize racism is a huge fucking problem.

There's truth to this in some campaign rhetoric, but I would never couch Obama's administration as one that caved into white supremacy. Though I'm not advocating for adopting even that language from 2008.

Again, Obama had to present himself as a mild mannered Cliff Huxtable just so he won't be seen as a scary, black man. And like the Cosby Show, he rarely talked about racial issues as well. So he caved to white supremacy. Sure not to the degree that Bill Clinton did. But he still caved.

I'm starting to think Hillary lost because she just said "fuck it" and called them straight up deplorable.
 
The thing is, both sides do do it (heheh, doodoo) - when they're given the chance.

The nature of the Midwest is such that outside of Illinois and maybe Minnesota, none of these states will ever have a Dem trifecta drawing the lines for themselves. Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Florida (not Midwest but I'll lump it in here because it also applies) - the most you can ever hope for in these states is that they elect a Democratic governor who can force compromise maps, and that there's not a supermajority in the state legislature making their veto power a moot point.

Combine that with GOP dominance in the South, that means the Republicans are guaranteed partial to total control of redistricting for a huge swath of the country. The other parts are Dem strongholds which are either so strongly Dem and the states so small that it doesn't really make a difference (Northeast), or they have nonpartisan redistricting schemes that make it impossible to gerrymander (California, New York, New Jersey, Washington). On paper, that's a good thing, but it's a crippling handicap for all the blue states to go for this neat and tidy good governance crap while the red states completely do not give a shit.

Unless there's such a huge swing that we can pick up a bunch of these state legislatures (which are ALSO gerrymandered), the most we can probably do in many states post-2020 is neutral maps. Which is still a big upgrade from where we are now, but this is why it'd be nice for the Court to establish a national standard. Even if those swing states have fair maps, the deck is still going to be pretty heavily stacked against us thanks to states like Texas, Georgia and North Carolina having horrid GOP-drawn maps that at best will be struck down by like 2028 after the GOP has already won every state election under said maps.

In the case of Indiana even the governor's veto is worthless since it can be overridden with a simple majority. Dems used to be able to win the Indiana House with some regularity and force compromise maps, but then 2010 happened and I don't see how they can overcome the current maps (or the ones drawn post-2020 which will surely be just as horrid) outside SCOTUS stepping in.
 

NeoXChaos

Member
The thing is, both sides do do it (heheh, doodoo) - when they're given the chance.

The nature of the Midwest is such that outside of Illinois and maybe Minnesota, none of these states will ever have a Dem trifecta drawing the lines for themselves. Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Florida (not Midwest but I'll lump it in here because it also applies) - the most you can ever hope for in these states is that they elect a Democratic governor who can force compromise maps, and that there's not a supermajority in the state legislature making their veto power a moot point.

Combine that with GOP dominance in the South, that means the Republicans are guaranteed partial to total control of redistricting for a huge swath of the country. The other parts are Dem strongholds which are either so strongly Dem and the states so small that it doesn't really make a difference (Northeast), or they have nonpartisan redistricting schemes that make it impossible to gerrymander (California, New York, New Jersey, Washington). On paper, that's a good thing, but it's a crippling handicap for all the blue states to go for this neat and tidy good governance crap while the red states completely do not give a shit.

Unless there's such a huge swing that we can pick up a bunch of these state legislatures (which are ALSO gerrymandered), the most we can probably do in many states post-2020 is neutral maps. Which is still a big upgrade from where we are now, but this is why it'd be nice for the Court to establish a national standard. Even if those swing states have fair maps, the deck is still going to be pretty heavily stacked against us thanks to states like Texas, Georgia and North Carolina having horrid GOP-drawn maps that at best will be struck down by like 2028 after the GOP has already won every state election under said maps.

add to that states in the plains like Wyoming, Utah, Kansas, Oklahoma,, North Dakota, South Dakota etc.

Even if you got a Democratic Governor in those states the legislature is a supermajority or the state so Republican non-partisan maps would not make much of a difference at the state level.
 
In the case of Indiana even the governor's veto is worthless since it can be overridden with a simple majority. Dems used to be able to win the Indiana House with some regularity and force compromise maps, but then 2010 happened and I don't see how they can overcome the current maps (or the ones drawn post-2020 which will surely be just as horrid) outside SCOTUS stepping in.
Oh fun. North Carolina has the same issue - the governor does have veto power normally, but redistricting is exempt from this because of fucking course it is. The Democrats should have done something about it when they still had a trifecta though if it's coded into the constitution that would probably be impossible.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
You can't.

We live in a country founded upon white supremacy. Most Americans, even many who are not white, subscribe to some extent to the attitude that it's acceptable or even necessary for our society to be organized into a racial hierarchy that positions white people at the top. Central to this understanding is the lie that the behavior of black people or immigrants or Native Americans is the reason for their collective position in our society, with the ensuing conclusion that these groups deserve to be oppressed.

Historically, American presidents have accepted this narrative to varying extents. While Trump is the most openly and unabashedly racist president in recent memory, both Reagan and Bill Clinton used the racialized myth of the "welfare queen" to pick apart our social programs. Even Johnson, who had probably done the most to fight white supremacy since Lincoln, used language that would make Rep. Steve King look like a progressive. I wasn't aware of this until today, but TiredofWinning mentioned how President Obama invoked dangerous stereotypes while campaigning, potentially hoping to assuage the racial fears of Democrats who might later see a glimpse of that speech.

To avoid making further concessions, future Democrats are going to have to offer a counter-narrative that can explain the interrelated nature of race and class. I don't believe any Democrat has properly articulated the ways in which white supremacy crystallizes class hierarchy and prevents working-class Americans from improving their material circumstance. But to do this, the party will need to abandon its New Democrat aversion to class politics and actually offer political strategies to combat white supremacy that go beyond helping some candidates of color get elected. The past several months have shown that Democratic leaders are unwilling to make any serious changes to their platform, but for years this platform has just ceded power to the GOP. Given that our current president is a perfect example for the ways in which racism is used to benefit those in power, now is the best time to create a more progressive platform which can increase minority turnout and refute Trump's phony and racist economic promises. Even if a more centrist candidate manages to beat him in 2020, our current platform isn't enough to keep and hold power in congress and on the state level.
 

NeoXChaos

Member
Oh fun. North Carolina has the same issue - the governor does have veto power normally, but redistricting is exempt from this because of fucking course it is. The Democrats should have done something about it when they still had a trifecta though if it's coded into the constitution that would probably be impossible.

oh and guess what else? The Governor of Florida can not veto the state redistricting map.

https://ballotpedia.org/State-by-state_redistricting_procedures

Five states, including Connecticut, Florida, Maryland, Mississippi and North Carolina, set electoral boundaries by joint resolution. In these states, the governor cannot veto the legislature's decision

EDIT: He or she can however veto the Congressional map for Florida
 
Trump wants a GOP scalp to scare the other senators into supporting him and to feel like a big man for once or something

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/348048-the-memo-trump-allies-say-he-needs-a-gop-scalp

Bunch of dinguses. Especially with all the Trump advisors pushing the blame on Congress for "not doing their job." Hey idiots, a party needs a LEADER. One who actually cares about what goes into legislation, political strategy, etc. not someone who just barks orders on Twitter when he's taking a shit.

But by all means, keep fighting. Drag down Flake and Heller. Put Texas on the board for us.
 
Trump wants a GOP scalp to scare the other senators into supporting him and to feel like a big man for once or something

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/348048-the-memo-trump-allies-say-he-needs-a-gop-scalp

Bunch of dinguses. Especially with all the Trump advisors pushing the blame on Congress for "not doing their job." Hey idiots, a party needs a LEADER. One who actually cares about what goes into legislation, political strategy, etc. not someone who just barks orders on Twitter when he's taking a shit.

But by all means, keep fighting. Drag down Flake and Heller. Put Texas on the board for us.
Trump is playing a game that is meant for grown ups. If I learned anything from politics is that you need a good leader to get stuff done.
 

Random Human

They were trying to grab your prize. They work for the mercenary. The masked man.
Trump wants a GOP scalp to scare the other senators into supporting him and to feel like a big man for once or something

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/348048-the-memo-trump-allies-say-he-needs-a-gop-scalp

Bunch of dinguses. Especially with all the Trump advisors pushing the blame on Congress for "not doing their job." Hey idiots, a party needs a LEADER. One who actually cares about what goes into legislation, political strategy, etc. not someone who just barks orders on Twitter when he's taking a shit.

But by all means, keep fighting. Drag down Flake and Heller. Put Texas on the board for us.

This is such a weird play.

Good luck, you orange dipshit.
 
Trump is playing a game that is meant for grown ups. If I learned anything from politics is that you need a good leader to get stuff done.
Seriously. It's not like Obama knew every detail of Affordable Care Act down to the letter, but he was well-versed enough in what the bill did, what it aimed to do, and so on to know how to cajole wavering Senators and Congresspeople. He was also good at delegation - that shit passed five committees before it came to a floor vote. Everyone got a say and everyone knew what was in it.

And that's just one example. Obama was far more accomplished even with a GOP Congress that said no to everything than Trump is with a party that, in theory, favors him.

Wonder if Trump ever considered that "scalping" GOP members is more likely to turn the party on him. He already has no friends in the establishment.
 
Seriously. It's not like Obama knew every detail of Affordable Care Act down to the letter, but he was well-versed enough in what the bill did, what it aimed to do, and so on to know how to cajole wavering Senators and Congresspeople. He was also good at delegation - that shit passed five committees before it came to a floor vote. Everyone got a say and everyone knew what was in it.

And that's just one example. Obama was far more accomplished even with a GOP Congress that said no to everything than Trump is with a party that, in theory, favors him.

Wonder if Trump ever considered that "scalping" GOP members is more likely to turn the party on him. He already has no friends in the establishment.

Delegation is an important skill to have when it comes to being a president. Obama role in the ACA is a key example of it.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
Feel the need to say that winning over Trump voters isn't going to be a worthwhile use of campaign energy. While I'm sure a lot of industrial workers in Michigan or professional women in the Northeast feel jilted by the man they voted for, these people still likely have some degree of brand loyalty and probably subscribe to assumptions (racial, geographic, or just sectarian) that will prevent them from voting from a Democrat from a future.

What's much more important is turning out people who did not vote for Trump, the millions of registered voters who for reasons legitimate and illegitimate thought that the Democrats had nothing to offer. Because Trump is so unbelievably terrible a lot of this will just amount to pointing out the ways he sucks. But I really think Democrats are going to need to offer some concrete benefits that Trump won't provide, giving non-voters an immediate material interest to show up to the polls.
 
Feel the need to say that winning over Trump voters isn't going to be a worthwhile use of campaign energy. While I'm sure a lot of industrial workers in Michigan or professional women in the Northeast feel jilted by the man they voted for, these people still likely have some degree of brand loyalty and probably subscribe to assumptions (racial, geographic, or just sectarian) that will prevent them from voting from a Democrat from a future.

What's much more important is turning out people who did not vote for Trump, the millions of registered voters who for reasons legitimate and illegitimate thought that the Democrats had nothing to offer. Because Trump is so unbelievably terrible a lot of this will just amount to pointing out the ways he sucks. But I really think Democrats are going to need to offer some concrete benefits that Trump won't provide, giving non-voters an immediate material interest to show up to the polls.
Cue all the third party hand wringers who will ignore your 99 reasons to vote for a Democrat to whine about your 1 reason to vote against Trump.
 
Trump wants a GOP scalp to scare the other senators into supporting him and to feel like a big man for once or something

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/348048-the-memo-trump-allies-say-he-needs-a-gop-scalp

Bunch of dinguses. Especially with all the Trump advisors pushing the blame on Congress for "not doing their job." Hey idiots, a party needs a LEADER. One who actually cares about what goes into legislation, political strategy, etc. not someone who just barks orders on Twitter when he's taking a shit.

But by all means, keep fighting. Drag down Flake and Heller. Put Texas on the board for us.

Trump's behavior does make some kind of sense if you view it as him being unconcerned with Republican performance overall or with passing any particular policy agenda, and entirely focused on surviving the next 4 years. If he keeps control of the base and splits them more and more effectively from Republican leadership, he can guarantee himself their protection against impeachment efforts. Republicans are hyper-focused on fear of primary challenges since Cantor.

That said, he does seem to be taking a chisel to the actual size of the Republican voting block, which should help us, long term.
 

Ogodei

Member
Trump's behavior does make some kind of sense if you view it as him being unconcerned with Republican performance overall or with passing any particular policy agenda, and entirely focused on surviving the next 4 years. If he keeps control of the base and splits them more and more effectively from Republican leadership, he can guarantee himself their protection against impeachment efforts. Republicans are hyper-focused on fear of primary challenges since Cantor.

That said, he does seem to be taking a chisel to the actual size of the Republican voting block, which should help us, long term.

Cantor was a fluke, arguably. Murkowski beat her primary challenge, Thad Cochran's challenge in Mississippi was supposedly the proof needed that the fear of everyone getting primaried was overblown.

Cantor was just bad luck, and maybe a bit of antisemitism.
 

kirblar

Member
Cantor was a fluke, arguably. Murkowski beat her primary challenge, Thad Cochran's challenge in Mississippi was supposedly the proof needed that the fear of everyone getting primaried was overblown.

Cantor was just bad luck, and maybe a bit of antisemitism.
Murkowski lost her primary. She beat her challenger in the general by assembling a centrist coalition of Ds, Is and Rs.
 
Cantor was a fluke, arguably. Murkowski beat her primary challenge, Thad Cochran's challenge in Mississippi was supposedly the proof needed that the fear of everyone getting primaried was overblown.

Cantor was just bad luck, and maybe a bit of antisemitism.

Since then, Republicans have run harder and harder to the right, earlier and earlier in the process. If they're not thinking of Cantor specifically, they're definitely concerned about SOMETHING.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
The Lost Cause

The New Deal excluding minorities

Roosevelt internment camps

Lydon "He'll empty his pockets for you"Johnson

Lyndon "We've lost the South for a generation" Johnson when he signed the Civil Rights Act and the racists jumped to the GOP ever since

Nixon's Southern Stratgey

Reagan's welfare queen comments

Clinton's crime bill

Bush II's War on Terror. Even if he, himself, knew we weren't at War with Islam. It was still presented as that

Obama idiotically trying to be the good one. And how the disillusion came in once "If I had a son, he'd look liked Trayvon"

And how in 2016, the GOP tried to cut back on racism against Latinos only for Donald Trump to crush his GOP rivals with "Mexicans are rapists" and teh Wall.

At some point, the left is gonna have to realize racism is a huge fucking problem.



Again, Obama had to present himself as a mild mannered Cliff Huxtable just so he won't be seen as a scary, black man. And like the Cosby Show, he rarely talked about racial issues as well. So he caved to white supremacy. Sure not to the degree that Bill Clinton did. But he still caved.

I'm starting to think Hillary lost because she just said "fuck it" and called them straight up deplorable.

Part of me says "big deal." I mean those of us who understand how shitty this place is need to find a way to trick people who don't feel the same way into supporting those who do. That's what I'm settling on.

Obama pretended to be a Huxtable, he got elected twice, and I think he did a lot of good for minorities and people of color. Maybe he also reinforced some stereotypes and did some damage along the way. Undoubtedly so. But is the opposite calling them out on this directly and losing because the system is set up for us not to win? Does Clinton taking the moral high ground, not even ceding an inch to this bullshit (which some on the left disagree with), and losing help every day black and brown and gay and trans and disabled people?

I'm not sure how to approach this but is obvious the country is built on racism, our president is a racist, his cadre of advisors, and his party are all OK with that as long as he helps rich people pay less in taxes.
 

kirblar

Member
Part of me says "big deal." I mean those of us who understand how shitty this place is need to find a way to trick people who don't feel the same way into supporting those who do. That's what I'm settling on.

Obama pretended to be a Huxtable, he got elected twice, and I think he did a lot of good for minorities and people of color. Maybe he also reinforced some stereotypes and did some damage along the way. Undoubtedly so. But is the opposite calling them out on this directly and losing because the system is set up for us not to win? Does Clinton taking the moral high ground, not even ceding an inch to this bullshit (which some on the left disagree with), and losing help every day black and brown and gay and trans and disabled people?

I'm not sure how to approach this but is obvious the country is built on racism, our president is a racist, his cadre of advisors, and his party are all OK with that as long as he helps rich people pay less in taxes.
I think the context to Obama is important. Less in terms of what it meant for policy and more in terms of what it meant for how to run campaigns when you have a substantial % of white voters who freak the F out at any mention of minority issues.

Obama could get away w/ speaking less directly on the subject because he was a black guy and that brought implicit trust from other people on how he'd handle race-related issues. Hillary and Bernie, not so much.
 

pigeon

Banned
I agree with most of this. But some of the racist vote needs to be won over, the question is how to do it without actually caving into white supremacy.

It doesn't. Ask a Bernie supporter! Trump's turnout was abysmal. Clinton's turnout was just worse.

We can win an Obama-level victory, or larger, without winning any voters that voted for Trump in 2016.
 

royalan

Member
I think the context to Obama is important. Less in terms of what it meant for policy and more in terms of what it meant for how to run campaigns when you have a substantial % of white voters who freak the F out at any mention of minority issues.

Obama could get away w/ speaking less directly on the subject because he was a black guy and that brought implicit trust from other people on how he'd handle race-related issues. Hillary and Bernie, not so much.

The funny thing is, Hillary was poised to get the lion's share of minority support in '08. The Clinton name had a lot of good will among black voters, and her campaign thought that would help her in the South.

And then along came Barack Obama. The primary she ran against him hurt her in '08 and '16, particularly among young minority voters.

I guess what I'm getting at is that Hillary Clinton, a white woman, at one point had trust among minority voters almost at the level of the first black president, because she did the work of endearing herself to that community. A non-black candidate can get black support without tailoring their entire campaign around it, but you have to start early. Black people have to know that you stand with us too, and we have to know that before it's an election year. Or you get the Bernie treatment.
 

Ernest

Banned
Paul Ryan isn't a fan of the Arpaio pardon: https://www.wsj.com/articles/house-...onald-trumps-pardon-for-joe-arpaio-1503781921

Concern level slightly raised.
He can certainly do something about it... if he weren't such a little fucking coward.

From the Virginia Convention to ratify the Constitution:

Mr. Madison, adverting to Mr. Mason’s objection to the President’s power of pardoning, said, it would be extremely improper to vest it in the House of Representatives, and not much less so to place it in the Senate: because numerous bodies were actuated more or less by passion, and might in the moment of vengeance forget humanity.–It was an established practice in Massachusetts for the Legislature to determine in such cases. It was found, says he, that two different sessions, before each of which the question came, with respect to pardoning the delinquents of the rebellion, were governed precisely by different sentiments–the one would execute with universal vengeance, and the other would extend general mercy.

There is one security in this case to which Gentlemen may not have adverted:–If the President be connected in any suspicious manner with any persons, and there be grounds to believe he will shelter himself; the House of Representatives can impeach him:–They can remove him if found guilty:–They can suspend him when suspected, and the power will devolve on the Vice-President: Should he be suspected also, he may likewise be suspended till he be impeached and removed, and the Legislature may make a temporary appointment. This is a great security.
 
2016 really did make a lot of people crazy if "maybe we should win over some racists" is a thing people really want to fight for.

It seems cowardly. As cowardly as all the posters going around blaming minorities for not voting as much for their guy when white people helped put the racist in power.
 
2016 really did make a lot of people crazy if "maybe we should win over some racists" is a thing people really want to fight for.

It seems cowardly. As cowardly as all the posters going around blaming minorities for not voting as much for their guy when white people helped put the racist in power.
The thing is a successful Democratic campaign will draw some of those latently racist Trump voters on its own. We don't have to do anything explicitly to appeal to them.

You get a charismatic candidate who can play the media and keep up a positive image. Clinton, for the many things I admired about her, was 0 for 3 on those. Awkward on the trail, had an icy relationship with journalists (compared to Trump who is a media whore) and did little to address the issues people had with her.
 
Since then, Republicans have run harder and harder to the right, earlier and earlier in the process. If they're not thinking of Cantor specifically, they're definitely concerned about SOMETHING.

Not to disagree with your point, but you can't run much further to the right than Cochran's primary challenger, Chris McDaniel. That guy is still a state legislator and he's worse than Bannon and Trump put together. He's evil to the core.
 

pigeon

Banned
Feel the need to say that winning over Trump voters isn't going to be a worthwhile use of campaign energy. While I'm sure a lot of industrial workers in Michigan or professional women in the Northeast feel jilted by the man they voted for, these people still likely have some degree of brand loyalty and probably subscribe to assumptions (racial, geographic, or just sectarian) that will prevent them from voting from a Democrat from a future.

What's much more important is turning out people who did not vote for Trump, the millions of registered voters who for reasons legitimate and illegitimate thought that the Democrats had nothing to offer. Because Trump is so unbelievably terrible a lot of this will just amount to pointing out the ways he sucks. But I really think Democrats are going to need to offer some concrete benefits that Trump won't provide, giving non-voters an immediate material interest to show up to the polls.

I agree with the general principles here, although, as discussed before, I'm really quite doubtful that the people who have decided that American democracy is not worth participating in will suddenly turn out because we double the EITC. I have a higher opinion of America's conscientious objectors than that.

I think quite a few of these people refuse to vote because they believe the Democrats are too morally compromised to represent them, which is why I keep urging the Democrats to stop compromising and to be willing to take moral stances.

I think another chunk of them believe that capitalism is inherently unjust and that Democrats aren't willing to push against it, which is why I think Democrats need to start advancing socialist, redistributive policies more explicitly. Not as a handout!

I also think quite a large number of them, frankly, simply find the hardships involved in voting too arduous when compared to the relatively low economic value of your individual vote, which is why I think it's so important to get AVR, eradicate disenfranchisement, have mandatory early voting and vote-by-mail, and otherwise make sure voting is as easy as ordering an Uber.

Then I think there are a bunch of them who I would mostly describe as versions of the first two groups but too radical to persuade, and another bunch who I would mostly describe as crazy, and under all those, the pretty small cohort who just doesn't feel any civic interest and wouldn't regardless of circumstance. We can't get those guys to vote, but that's okay.
 

pigeon

Banned
As cowardly as all the posters going around blaming minorities for not voting as much for their guy when white people helped put the racist in power.

I have seen this on Twitter today, but not on GAF. Who's saying that? Please direct me to their place of videogame message board business.
 
Trump wants a GOP scalp to scare the other senators into supporting him and to feel like a big man for once or something

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/348048-the-memo-trump-allies-say-he-needs-a-gop-scalp

Bunch of dinguses. Especially with all the Trump advisors pushing the blame on Congress for "not doing their job." Hey idiots, a party needs a LEADER. One who actually cares about what goes into legislation, political strategy, etc. not someone who just barks orders on Twitter when he's taking a shit.

But by all means, keep fighting. Drag down Flake and Heller. Put Texas on the board for us.

One of the things that's keeping me level is the scads of NeverTrumpers murmuring about the GOP splitting. Hopefully, and we're on the path to a decently injury-free way out of this mess, the GOP has this infighting takes the brunt of the fall.

One thing is for sure though, he's acting as if he either doesn't know that the Hill GOP could turn on him, or doesn't care...

Paul Ryan isn't a fan of the Arpaio pardon: https://www.wsj.com/articles/house-...onald-trumps-pardon-for-joe-arpaio-1503781921

Concern level slightly raised.

Impeach *clapemoji* or *clapemoji* STFU
 

Diablos

Member
The GOP will never split. They know it will put a huge handicap on their dominance for a long time. I mean... they'd be rolling over for Dems to take charge basically.

The hurricane betrayed him by becoming a tropical storm. It was a HINO.
Fake hurricane pushed by the fake news media to try and take from his efforts to #MAGA! Sad!
 

Diablos

Member
You act as though they have a choice if their president endorses primary challengers and deepens the schism within the party. He'll split it for them.
True. But I would think impeaching him and getting MIKEPENCE is, of the two possibilities, a sounder alternative as it's a calculated risk that's probably less damaging in the long run. Sure, Trump could still back primary challengers and fight the GOP until his last breath, but not being President anymore -- especially after getting removed from office -- gives you much less exposure and a smaller voice.

Like they would still probably lose lots of voters for impeaching trump but they can afford to lose a cycle or two, finally rebrand in a legit way behind the scenes in a logical way and then come back to fight another day.
 

Random Human

They were trying to grab your prize. They work for the mercenary. The masked man.
I don't think his plan to use the hurricane as a distraction from the pardon is working
It seems like the hurricane thankfully wasn't as bad as it was predicted to be? If so, yeah he's back to his usual self-inflicted news cycle. I hope the media is pointing out how gross it was to use a natural disaster to hide your bad news.
 

pigeon

Banned
True. But I would think impeaching him and getting MIKEPENCE is, of the two possibilities, a sounder alternative as it's a calculated risk that's probably less damaging in the long run. Sure, Trump could still back primary challengers and fight the GOP until his last breath, but not being President anymore gives you much less exposure and a smaller voice.

Doing that would split the GOP. Trump wasn't President the last time he took over the party.
 
I agree with the general principles here, although, as discussed before, I'm really quite doubtful that the people who have decided that American democracy is not worth participating in will suddenly turn out because we double the EITC. I have a higher opinion of America's conscientious objectors than that.

I think quite a few of these people refuse to vote because they believe the Democrats are too morally compromised to represent them, which is why I keep urging the Democrats to stop compromising and to be willing to take moral stances.

I think another chunk of them believe that capitalism is inherently unjust and that Democrats aren't willing to push against it, which is why I think Democrats need to start advancing socialist, redistributive policies more explicitly. Not as a handout!

I also think quite a large number of them, frankly, simply find the hardships involved in voting too arduous when compared to the relatively low economic value of your individual vote, which is why I think it's so important to get AVR, eradicate disenfranchisement, have mandatory early voting and vote-by-mail, and otherwise make sure voting is as easy as ordering an Uber.

Then I think there are a bunch of them who I would mostly describe as versions of the first two groups but too radical to persuade, and another bunch who I would mostly describe as crazy, and under all those, the pretty small cohort who just doesn't feel any civic interest and wouldn't regardless of circumstance. We can't get those guys to vote, but that's okay.

I agree with all of this, but there are other non-voters that you didn't mention, and they're the largest chunk I think. It's the people who thought that they didn't want to vote for either candidate who live in those swing states and then stayed home. For example, the entire staff of Deadspin posted how they were going to vote before the election, and most of them were going to write in shit or not vote. Most lived in NY so no big deal, but one of them lives in Pennsylvania. Whoops!

Those voters will come out/back with no extra prodding after Trump like Aaron posted awhile ago. And you don't need many to tip that race. You don't need to run Steve King, but you also don't need to freak out about conscientious objectors who are likely a rounding error. Most people who don't vote do that because it's harder to vote than they're willing to deal with (so to that, I completely agree about making voting easier; voting should be automatic by mail over a month long period).
 
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