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PoliGAF 2017 |OT6| Made this thread during Harvey because the ratings would be higher

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K

kirblar

Member
Old article from Jacobin Yglesias just stumbled on/posted on twitter that I haven't had time to read yet (it is super long and super dense), but this excerpt he highlighted is very good: https://t.co/fxtqC2uSRm

DK1ltY8WkAEMc2D.jpg:large
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G

googleplex

Member
If my only choices for the Democratic presidential nominee came down to Biden or Bernie that would be a rough one for me. Biden is a bit too conservative for me. But Bernie's "anyone that disagree with me is the enemy" style is completely off putting.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
googleplex said:
If my only choices for the Democratic presidential nominee came down to Biden or Bernie that would be a rough one for me. Biden is a bit too conservative for me. But Bernie's "anyone that disagree with me is the enemy" style is completely off putting.
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so bernie is more ideologically in sync but you don't like him because how you perceive his policies?
 
K

kirblar

Member
NYCmetsfan said:
so bernie is more ideologically in sync but you don't like him because how you perceive his policies?
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Not trusting men or women like Sanders who have been on the outside sniping in their entire careers to suddenly be able to govern and lead effectively from the inside isn't an irrational fear or doubt.
 
B

Box of Kittens

Banned
DTC said:
Lol the PPP poll is so strange. Look at how the 18-29 year olds vote. For some reason they're way more pro Trump than what happened in election day, yet older groups are way more anti Trump.

Their last poll had an age gap that better represented the 2016 vote.
Click to expand...

The margin of error on that subsample is likely rather large.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Lois_Lane said:
Nah his behavior. I would go Biden myself but that's just because I don't trust Bernie to care about minorities. I would vote for either in a general election though.
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Biden still openly supports the overly tough crime bills in the 90s he passed that Bernie does not, does the exact same white working class identity politics that Bernie does, and you still trust him to do better on minority issues than Bernie? Why? Maybe if Biden pulls a hillary and completely reworks his message and focus, but as of right now that makes absolutely no sense.
 
C

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
pigeon said:
I think you're utterly wrong to suggest that abortion rights and gay marriage are protected by stare decisis. They're protected by social norms.
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I'm not so sure about that, especially in terms of abortion. Gay marriage I think would be OK (especially because at this point, the laws around states honoring marriages from other states would also throw a giant monkey wrench in trying to turn those back)

http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/

I think due to the self-selecting that has happened in the country in terms of political views, major coastal cities would be fine, but a whole bunch of other places wouldn't be. I think the biggest thing SCOTUS does currently is that without a functioning Congress, it does help bring some level of unification in terms of rules around the country.

That said, we're trying to band-aid a symptom rather than deal with the fact that Congress isn't functioning. That's what we need to go actually tackle.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
kirblar said:
"If you have name recognition, are you doing better than a hypothetical Clinton re-do" is a good way to take this I think. Michelle, Sanders, Biden all pass that test, Warren/Booker don't. Harris/Gillibrand really aren't well-known.

The overall lesson here is "vote for the person who you think will do the best job", imo.
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Warren and Booker are ahead of the Clinton redo though, margin-wise. Booker is up 7 and Warren is up 6. They're both at 47% though, same as Clinton.
 
F

Fenderputty

Banned
thepotatoman said:
Biden still openly supports the overly tough crime bills in the 90s he passed that Bernie does not, does the exact same white working class identity politics that Bernie does, and you still trust him to do better on minority issues than Bernie? Why? Maybe if Biden pulls a hillary and completely reworks his message and focus, but as of right now that makes absolutely no sense.
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It makes sense in that for some reason everyone loves Biden, regardless of if that makes they're other political stances hypocritical.
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Yep:

Fin Gomez‏Verified account @finnygo

NEW: Senior HHS source says that HHS secretary Tom Price will specifically pay $51,887.31 over useage of a private plane.
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Ruben Gallego‏Verified account @RepRubenGallego 12m12 minutes ago

Ruben Gallego Retweeted Fin Gomez

Which leaves at least $348,112.69 for taxpayers to cover.
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None of these people in this administration have an ounce of good in them. None.
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
sangreal said:
well its half a step above this regime's usual "what are you going to do about it?" stance on everything
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If we're mathematically calculating, it's more like 1/8 of a step.
 
B

Blader

Member
Has Price even acknowledged why he did this in the first place? I mean obviously it's because he's a corrupt individual who wanted to fly in luxury on the taxpayers' dime and thought he could get away with it somehow, but he has even given any kind of public spin on it yet? All I've seen is "We vow not to do this anymore" and "We're looking forward to the IG review" as if he were somehow removed from this whole process and wasn't involved in chartering and flying on those flights in the first place.
 
R

Randolph Freelander

Member
Blader said:
Has Price even acknowledged why he did this in the first place? I mean obviously it's because he's a corrupt individual who wanted to fly in luxury on the taxpayers' dime and thought he could get away with it somehow, but he has even given any kind of public spin on it yet? All I've seen is "We vow not to do this anymore" and "We're looking forward to the IG review" as if he were somehow removed from this whole process and wasn't involved in chartering and flying on those flights in the first place.
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He missed an unimportant meeting once.
 
L

Lois_Lane

Member
thepotatoman said:
Biden still openly supports the overly tough crime bills in the 90s he passed that Bernie does not, does the exact same white working class identity politics that Bernie does, and you still trust him to do better on minority issues than Bernie? Why? Maybe if Biden pulls a hillary and completely reworks his message and focus, but as of right now that makes absolutely no sense.
Click to expand...

Biden knows when to fall in line. Besides that I actually believe he'd listen to Obama and has served as a major force within the party for years. If I can forgive Hillary for the 90s shit then I can forgive Biden.

Edit:
I'm curious what are Bernie's major legislative accomplishments?
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
https://www.buzzfeed.com/adriancarr...utive-dining?utm_term=.ruro4YaE9y#.rnMJ2ydpVX
Tom Price, the Health and Human Services secretary currently under fire for his private jet travel, asked a White House official within the first two months of the administration to let President Trump know that he wanted to reopen his department's executive dining room, according to a source with knowledge of the request.
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"They're making a ton of cuts, the world is falling apart, and Price is on private planes and wants to open an executive dining room," said one of the sources with knowledge of the request, who served on the Trump campaign and transition team.

The source who said Price wanted White House aides to mention his interest in the executive dining room to the president said Price is hurting the administration.

"He's such a fucking hypocrite," said the source, who has advised Trump in the past. "We were always the people slamming Obama and his staff for doing stuff like this."
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It never stops with this guy.
 
S

SatelliteOfLove

Member
kirblar said:
Oppo Droppo hour has become "Social Media/Russia" hour the last two weeks.
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As well it should; the money trail is leading thru it and it can lead to CA, Parscale, Russian spies, Bannon, and Kushner.

Plinko said:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/adriancarr...utive-dining?utm_term=.ruro4YaE9y#.rnMJ2ydpVX



It never stops with this guy.
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That last quoted line is a hoot. "Oh, you didn't get the memo? lolz, someone get this guy up to speed here."

Anyways, yeah, you can tell when these grifters are fucked when they make peace offerings like this boy and Perjury Addict Jeff Sessions.
 
S

sphagnum

Banned
kirblar said:
Just got through it, it reads as a strong defense of capitalism to me lol
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I don't get that sense considering how much time he spends devoted to talking about the allocating efficiency of the command economy or its focus on the irrational parts of private control. It's an examination of why non-market systems failed, but from the perspective of someone trying to determine how to lead into market socialism. Marx himself said: "What we have to deal with here [in analyzing the programme of the workers' party] is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it comes."

Socialists have to be self critical to advance. Some people get stuck in a nostalgia trip but that's not doing a proper material analysis.
 
K

kirblar

Member
sphagnum said:
I don't get that sense considering how much time he spends devoted to talking about the allocating efficiency of the command economy or its focus on the irrational parts of private control. It's an examination of why non-market systems failed, but from the perspective of someone trying to determine how to lead into market socialism. Marx himself said: "What we have to deal with here [in analyzing the programme of the workers' party] is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it comes."

Socialists have to be self critical to advance. Some people get stuck in a nostalgia trip but that's not doing a proper material analysis.
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To me it comes off as "don't stop believing! (but really capitalism's been pretty good and you're probably never going to get to where you want to because there are things capitalism is incredibly good at doing that you don't have a replacement for.)"
 
S

sphagnum

Banned
kirblar said:
To me it comes off as "don't stop believing! (but really capitalism's been pretty good and you're probably never going to get to where you want to because there are things capitalism is incredibly good at doing that you don't have a replacement for.)"
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Recognizing things that capitalism is good at doesn't mean it's a defense of it though. He's very consciously trying to figure out that replacement because capitalism is still problematic on its own.
 
K

kirblar

Member
sphagnum said:
Recognizing things that capitalism is good at doesn't mean it's a defense of it though. He's very consciously trying to figure out that replacement because capitalism is still problematic on its own.
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He is pointing out concepts that many on the left will have never thought about because they have no background in economics and no conception of the vast complexities of a system they're trying to replace.

This is him laying out "This is why what is currently there works. If you want to replace it, you need to match or beat it."

If you don't believe "matching or beating" it is possible, then this would read as an implicit defense of it! :)
 
S

sphagnum

Banned
kirblar said:
He is pointing out concepts that many on the left will have never thought about because they have no background in economics and no conception of the vast complexities of a system they're trying to replace.

This is him laying out "This is why what is currently there works. If you want to replace it, you need to match or beat it."

If you don't believe "matching or beating" it is possible, then this would read as an implicit defense of it! :)
Click to expand...

Therein lies the problem - you're projecting your feelings onto it!
 
G

googleplex

Member
NYCmetsfan said:
so bernie is more ideologically in sync but you don't like him because how you perceive his policies?
Click to expand...

I know a lot of people that agree 100% with me that I wouldn't trust to President! Being in Ideological sync with me is not the only or most important qualifier for presidency IMO.

And given Bernie attacks on planned parenthood for the sin of enforcing Hillary and his push back against what he calls "Identity politics" after the election I think my hesitation is logical.
 
K

kirblar

Member
sphagnum said:
Therein lies the problem - you're projecting your feelings onto it!
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The things he is talking about needing a replacement or upgrade for are not easy things to replace!

You need a bunch of people coordinating independently on different tasks, managers, etc.

We rely heavily on markets for so much of this coordination because it allows us to rely on them like a computer.

I took the broader point to be "reform is possible" (given that many public corporations broke the ownership-management/risk link in the modern era) but that replacing it is a near-impossible task, much like trying to get your cell phone to run if you rip out the CPU.
 
T

tbm24

Member
“The White House approved the use of military aircraft for multi-national trips by Health and Human Services Secretary Tom Price to Africa and Europe this spring, and to Asia in the summer, at a cost of more than $500,000 to taxpayers.

The overseas trips bring the total cost to taxpayers of Price’s travels to more than $1 million since May, according to a POLITICO review”

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/28/tom-price-military-jets-europe-asia-hhs-243276
 
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