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PoliGAF 2017 |OT6| Made this thread during Harvey because the ratings would be higher

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J

jtb

Banned
The Republican party was the party of white supremacy long before Trump came along.

I just don't see the tangible differences, ideologically, between Trump and the GOP orthodoxy. Or, to the extent that Trump has an ideology, how they're tangibly worse than the status quo of the GOP.

Trump's only ideology is white supremacy. The GOP base's only ideology is white supremacy. That's what I've taken from 2016.
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
Crab said:
when Trump loses, the current set of Republicans will turn on him like hounds on a dying man. They have no loyalty to his ideology or his legacy, they're just riding the tiger in exchange for morsels. There remains a hope that America can return to a (relative) sanity.

If Trump loses, and the current set of Republicans have been replaced with true believers, this goes on forever.
Click to expand...

I guess I'm open to that, but in practice, they are acting like they are true believers, so functionally we're all suffering the same. My sympathy is low!
 
M

Mr.Mike

Member
barber said:
I actually had conversations with some guys from a swedish public service and starts ups about the importance of open source and why using it would be a plus (starts ups) and why it would be dangerous (public service). The main problem is that public service has normally a really bad code that has been made to be retrocompatible with everything before, so the task of "opening" it would require an enormous amount of man hours and the fears of having the code open for everyone to see and easily find more holes (but it would also be easier to find them and fix them with an opensource). So basically, most programs need a major overhaul and the government is pretty much adverse to anything that could potentially lead to leaks of information.
About the 911 I thought most smartphones nowadays stream your gps location? the other data is pretty much worthless
Click to expand...

The quality of government code seems like one of the major reasons you'd want to make it open-source. I suppose the easiest way would probably be to start from scratch with an initiative to develop open-source software systems. This might also make standardization that would make code-sharing easier. Transitioning from old systems to this new one would be a lot of work, but I think code quality is a serious concern, especially when it's managing some pretty important systems.

It seems like there might be an nice, uncontroversial project in there that the global progressive movement can unite behind and make tangible progress on. Not that it's the biggest issue in the world or can finally end the bickering about the 2016 election or anything like that.

As far as the 911 thing, I figure more information can only really help. Might be a pretty under-baked take.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
whyamihere said:
I guess I'm open to that, but in practice, they are acting like they are true believers, so functionally we're all suffering the same. My sympathy is low!
Click to expand...

As I said, this is looking forward. You've got to think about what politics after Trump looks like.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
It'll be interesting to see Trump thrown under the bus just like the Bushes.

Imagine the 2024 elections where the youngest any potential Reagan (generally perceived as the last "good" Republican though imo he's well below Eisenhower and HW) voters could be is 58.
 
A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
jtb said:
The Republican party was the party of white supremacy long before Trump came along.

I just don't see the tangible differences, ideologically, between Trump and the GOP orthodoxy. Or, to the extent that Trump has an ideology, how they're tangibly worse than the status quo of the GOP.

Trump's only ideology is white supremacy. The GOP base's only ideology is white supremacy. That's what I've taken from 2016.
Click to expand...

I guess the fundamental question is whether you buy into the idea that Trump is a new force inside the GOP or not.

I don't think he is at all.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Crab said:
when Trump loses, the current set of Republicans will turn on him like hounds on a dying man. They have no loyalty to his ideology or his legacy, they're just riding the tiger in exchange for morsels. There remains a hope that America can return to a (relative) sanity.

If Trump loses, and the current set of Republicans have been replaced with true believers, this goes on forever.
Click to expand...

Somewhat agree, somewhat disagree.

The GOP is a party devoted to promoting white supremacy. It has been for sixty years. There's a reason Trump ran as a Republican and not as a Democrat.

But it would still be worse to have a bunch of Trumpists in office.
 
M

Mark Andrew

Member
Aaron Strife said:
It'll be interesting to see Trump thrown under the bus just like the Bushes.

Imagine the 2024 elections where the youngest any potential Reagan (generally perceived as the last "good" Republican though imo he's well below Eisenhower and HW) voters could be is 58.
Click to expand...

By 2024 the Republican Party will probably have nominated pewdiepie for office.

I honestly don’t see the Party reverting to anything resembling normal. The genie was let out of the bottle in 2009, and it’s not going back.
 
B

barber

Member
Mr.Mike said:
The quality of government code seems like one of the major reasons you'd want to make it open-source. I suppose the easiest way would probably be to start from scratch with an initiative to develop open-source software systems. This might also make standardization that would make code-sharing easier. Transitioning from old systems to this new one would be a lot of work, but I think code quality is a serious concern, especially when it's managing some pretty important systems.

It seems like there might be an nice, uncontroversial project in there that the global progressive movement can unite behind and make tangible progress on. Not that it's the biggest issue in the world or can finally end the bickering about the 2016 election or anything like that.

As far as the 911 thing, I figure more information can only really help. Might be a pretty under-baked take.
Click to expand...
I mean the younger guy who was working in the government basically said that it was lots of personal code with patches instead of an overarching stuff and had mostly no comments or "how to use", which basically makes it worthless to put in opensource as it will have to reverse engineer it. And from personal experience in my home country, changing from one code to a more standarized one can also be a problem in the way of teaching and trying to make it not end up in a similar way in some years.
Otherwise, it would be a great thing, as long as the original code was pretty much cleaned / the first months or years of the opensource were only available to selected people as a way to purge any possible exploits. The code behind some of our stuff is nasty and archaich.
Like seriously, back in Spain we had problems when we had to unite the legal websites from our region into a unified one (which was actually regional -> bigger regional -> national transition, which made some regions have to change twice in less than 10 years) and the university one, which in the end ended up ok, but i praise eduroam for that one XD
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
this australian gay marriage vote is so unbelievably stupid i actually can't believe it's going to happen.

(There’s thing thing in Australia where they don’t allow free votes for their MPs. So if they’re whipped a certain way, they HAVE to vote. So basically what the reality is that there are more than enough votes to pass parliament but the Liberal Party (the conservatives) haven’t allowed a conscience vote, so even for their MPs who support marriage equality, they can’t vote yes. And the Liberal Prime Minister is in support of gay marriage! He could essentially say tomorrow that it’s a free vote and it would pass easily.

Instead they’re spending like 97 million dollars for this stupid postal vote and the No side gets to demonize gay and trans people for like 2 months. And the vote doesn't even legalize gay marriage -- it just allowed a conscience vote in parliament! THAT COULD HAPPEN ALREADY IF TURNBULL JUST SAID SO.

Instead we have two months of these ads.

https://youtu.be/KqXLfp2sFHQ

Ugh.)
 
B

barber

Member
whyamihere said:
this australian gay marriage vote is so unbelievably stupid i actually can't believe it's going to happen.

(There's thing thing in Australia where they don't allow free votes for their MPs. So if they're whipped a certain way, they HAVE to vote. So basically what the reality is that there are more than enough votes to pass parliament but the Liberal Party (the conservatives) haven't allowed a conscience vote, so even for their MPs who support marriage equality, they can't vote yes. And the Liberal Prime Minister is in support of gay marriage! He could essentially say tomorrow that it's a free vote and it would pass easily.

Instead they're spending like 97 million dollars for this stupid postal vote and the No side gets to demonize gay and trans people for like 2 months. And the vote doesn't even legalize gay marriage -- it just allowed a conscience vote in parliament! THAT COULD HAPPEN ALREADY IF TURNBULL JUST SAID SO.

Instead we have two months of these ads.

https://youtu.be/KqXLfp2sFHQ

Ugh.)
Click to expand...

Not sure if i can't understand what they are saying cause of the accent or because the fucking music is too loud.
And hey, if the prime minister is "onbord" with gay marriage and then doesnt allow a vote he knows would pass in favour of it, maybe he is not "onboard" or prefers the religious vote over them.
Edit:saw a reaction video where the music was lower and I could actually understand it. Saying good things in a sad music doesnt work man. And saying "you could wear a dress if you feel like it" and then saying that they are taking their rights to choose away is kinda funny in a sad way.
 
P

Pixieking

Banned
Crab said:
I broadly agree with this, but I think as a rule of thumb, being hostile towards dynastic candidates is one of a number of ways in which we can enforce the general norm that politics should not be a game of 'who you know'. Encouraging an innate skepticism of dynastic politics and the revolving doors of children, spouses, and siblings is one step towards a broader skepticism of favoured candidates in general.
Click to expand...

Skepticism is one thing, but we've got to be careful to not say "Dynasties are bad, let's hope Kennedy doesn't run because Fuck Dynasties". If the most qualified, best person, for the job is a Kennedy or a Clinton or a Bush, then run with it, rather than going for a worse choice.

metalslimer said:
In a world where Hillary didn't meet Bill, I'm not sure she goes into politics to be honest.
Click to expand...

From what I've read of her background, I think she angles to be a jurist, with an eye on SCOTUS appointment. It would fulfil a lot of what she would want - the ability to change the country towards a more progressive, more equal, future.

Y2Kev said:
Hillary called the deplorables deplorable a year ago today. Sigh.
Click to expand...

Pour one out for the truth-teller who failed to become Quee... I mean, President. :(
 
A

Autodidact

Banned
Never insult the electorate
even when they harass Jewish journalists and proudly display neo-Nazi symbolism in their Twitter avatars
!!!!!!!
 
M

Mark Andrew

Member
This 60 Minutes interview is something. Steve Bannon grew up in a desegregated neighborhood so he doesn’t need to be lectured about race issues.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
whyamihere said:
I'm of the opinion that Hillary ran a very bad campaign but trying to tie viable candidates to supposedly non viable primary candidates in the general is not controversial.
Click to expand...

I'm not talking about you. I'm not talking about the people who just think she ran a bad campaign and acknowledge how fucking racist we all are. I'm talking about the people who refuse the latter despite being shown it damn near every day and are looking for someone to blame, as if there was only one thing that created Trump. For us to get here everything had to go wrong at once and if we can't acknowledge that then we've got no chance of winning next time. We can't fix what went wrong if we ignore the parts we don't like.

Autodidact said:
Never insult the electorate
even when they harass Jewish journalists and proudly display neo-Nazi symbolism in their Twitter avatars
!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

Pretty much my problem with the whole thing. France managed to unite against the Nazis, left and right mostly came together against them. That we couldn't says a ton about us as a people.
 
O

Ogodei

Member
VendettaRed07 said:
Haven't really heard anything from Macron lately. Hasn't he somehow already made his approval rating lower than Trump's?
Click to expand...

If you want to talk about an actual, factual neoliberal shill, you come to Emmanuel Macron. He's closer to Fillon, just without the urge to dismantle the welfare state that Fillon had (more about taking a hatchet to labor rules).
 
A

Autodidact

Banned
Speaking of Europe, what are the projections for tomorrow's Norwegian elections?

I know the Labour Party has had the largest number of seats for, like, decades now, but the right-wing parties always form coalitions to stay in power.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Autodidact said:
Speaking of Europe, what are the projections for tomorrow's Norwegian elections?

I know the Labour Party has had the largest number of seats for, like, decades now, but the right-wing parties always form coalitions to stay in power.
Click to expand...

I'm at the beach so here is a do it yourself meme kit

Map_Norway_political-geo.png

Jeb_Bush_16687889895.jpg
 
V

VendettaRed07

Member
B-Dubs said:
Yea, France doesn't like him at all from what I can tell. That just makes us look all the worse in comparison.
Click to expand...

Ogodei said:
If you want to talk about an actual, factual neoliberal shill, you come to Emmanuel Macron. He's closer to Fillon, just without the urge to dismantle the welfare state that Fillon had (more about taking a hatchet to labor rules).
Click to expand...
Hmm, guess Crab was correct about him then.

But also I think there's gotta be something weird with France's approval ratings compared to ours. He does seem unpopular but their last guy somehow got to 5% approval rating which I don't even think would be physically possible here
 
P

Poodlestrike

Banned
VendettaRed07 said:
Hmm, guess Crab was correct about him then.

But also I think there's gotta be something weird with France's approval ratings compared to ours. He does seem unpopular but their last guy somehow got to 5% approval rating which I don't even think would be physically possible here
Click to expand...

French party politics are a lot less tribal than ours.

Macron is at least partially suffering from I guess what you could call the collapse of a political waveform. Before the election, a lot of people saw what they wanted to see in him. Now he's actually DOING stuff and a lot of them found out they weren't paying close enough attention.
 
W

wutwutwut

Member
Ogodei said:
If you want to talk about an actual, factual neoliberal shill, you come to Emmanuel Macron. He's closer to Fillon, just without the urge to dismantle the welfare state that Fillon had (more about taking a hatchet to labor rules).
Click to expand...
Yep. As a neoliberal shill myself, I unironically love Macron.
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
wutwutwut said:
Yep. As a neoliberal shill myself, I unironically love Macron.
Click to expand...
There's no reason to love Macron. He's just a weird guy who married his middle school teacher and is extremely vanilla for European politicians. His entire platform was "we can all be friends" and "maybe loosen labor laws a little", but for some reason he was framed as the heroic underdog who saved France from a resurgence of Nazi fervor. That's fine and I probably would have voted for him but I wouldn't have a bumper sticker or anything.
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
Autodidact said:
Speaking of Europe, what are the projections for tomorrow's Norwegian elections?

I know the Labour Party has had the largest number of seats for, like, decades now, but the right-wing parties always form coalitions to stay in power.
Click to expand...

The Labor Party had a polling collapse in like the last month and are now going to be at parity with the Conservative party, or a little above. Centre party seems to have had a bump but doesn't really seem correlated with Labor's loss (nothing really does). So probably another Conservative/Progress government ☹️
 
J

jtb

Banned
Spoiled Milk said:
There's no reason to love Macron. He's just a weird guy who married his middle school teacher and is extremely vanilla for European politicians. His entire platform was "we can all be friends" and "maybe loosen labor laws a little", but for some reason he was framed as the heroic underdog who saved France from a resurgence of Nazi fervor. That's fine and I probably would have voted for him but I wouldn't have a bumper sticker or anything.
Click to expand...

How close was the initial 4-way vote?
 
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