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[yamaci17]

Besides Uncharted and TLOU Part I, most Sony ports run very well these days. Hell, Returnal runs at PS5 equivalent settings and frame rate on something like an RTX 3060.

The one thing to watch out for is VRAM. The PS5 has more VRAM than most cards that it's comparable to and first-party devs will use that amount. 8GB GPUs need not apply. Even 10GB might not be enough. Usually, you need 11-12GB which is what I assume the PS5 uses.

one should not forget DXGI cannot allocate all available VRAM to games on PC

you will usually get a portion of what you have in total. if you have a 10 GB GPU, driver most likely will allocate 9 GB of VRAM, 8 GB card will see 7.2 GB allocation and so on. This is without taking background applications that may use VRAM in account (Windows itself will use some amount of VRAM, Steam uses VRAM, Discord/Spotify etc. uses VRAM but they're extra software so I won't delve much into there)

more sound explanation by Kal (special k developer)

people often gets into this false sense of security where they think they match xbox series x's 10 gb gpu budget with a 10 gb gpu on PC or that 12 GB giving them some "headroom". things will get real messy when these budgets are really stressed down the road. more so with DLSS 3 though, as it uses extra amount of VRAM that developers won't tune their game for

 

[Bojji]

You mean the games that were originally designed for the PS5 only then ported by a different studio to PC years later? The ports that have famously all launched with various issues ranging from missing features to outright broken textures?

The only Sony games that run really well are the Decima engine ones, I'd assume due to all the work done by Kojima, considering how amazing Death Stranding runs. Probably why the upcoming Forbidden West release has requirements in line with what you would expect.

Exactly.

Returnal runs around or above PS5 performance on 2060 Super:

Optimized settings are PS5 quality settings, we obviously don't know real FPS of PS5 version because it's locked to 60 but PC GPUs run this thing completely fine.

But this is on UE4, it's really not that much surprising that first ND game on PC on their console engine was running like crap, they will have to learn how to optimize to PC because more of their games will be coming to PC for sure...

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Exactly.

Returnal runs around or above PS5 performance on 2060 Super:

Optimized settings are PS5 quality settings, we obviously don't know real FPS of PS5 version because it's locked to 60 but PC GPUs run this thing completely fine.

But this is on UE4, it's really not that much surprising that first ND game on PC on their console engine was running like crap, they will have to learn how to optimize to PC because more of their games will be coming to PC for sure...

DLSS comparisons now?

 

[Bojji]

DLSS comparisons now?

It's running in 1080p and reconstructing to 1440p, PS5 version is doing the same thing (but in much lower quality).

 

[jm89]

Yep, not probably it is

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

It's running in 1080p and reconstructing to 1440p, PS5 version is doing the same thing (but in much lower quality).

That studio was an indie PC dec prior, so not the best comparison as I doubt they optimized heavily for PS5

Horizon FW should be quite telling

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

I'm interested in the new information from DF.

 

[TheRedRiders]

They always get blamed for being "shitty ports" and never because of low level console optimization. But in reality, these optimizations are always taking place. Part of the reason why I don’t understand people wildly underestimating opportunities for PS5 Pro to leverage dual issue compute.

As example, GDC presentation on God of War Ragnarok ML texture upsampling

SSM achieved real time neural upsampling of textures with the limited ML capabilities of the PS5 Standard.

Really curious to see what they can pull of with the new ML power of the Pro, now that textures are starting to become a storage bottleneck especially on games like Rebirth. These technologies are going to become even more critical.

 

[Bojji]

That studio was an indie PC dec prior, so not the best comparison as I doubt they optimized heavily for PS5

Horizon FW should be quite telling

Who knows how well games are optimized for consoles, we don't know that. We only know that majority of games perform as they should when comparing PS5 to equivalent PC GPUs.

DF thinks that FW specs are reasonable (they also discuss bad ports of HZD and TLOU1):



We will see how it will perform...

 

[Spukc]

Damn day 1
Fuck my old ass playstation 5

Please make it look normal like the ps4

 

[yamaci17]

Who knows how well games are optimized for consoles, we don't know that. We only know that majority of games perform as they should when comparing PS5 to equivalent PC GPUs.

DF thinks that FW specs are reasonable (they also discuss bad ports of HZD and TLOU1):



We will see how it will perform...

well nixxes enforces %30 to %100 performance tank once you're out of vram limits in their ports (percentage depends on how much overflow you have). if they do the same with forbidden west, sadly, that will give a lot of leverage to console folks for their argument that ps5 is a magical box that outperforms its equivalent hardware. and alex most likely won't do a direct console vs. 8 GB RTX GPU just like he avoided doing with spiderman and ratchet and clank. nixxes is now doing the port and we can expect similar memory management "strategies" from them

ps5 equivalent textures will most likely be the ultra option so any comparison that will involve those textures will probably see 8 GB cards heavily tank in performance and make PS5 seem superior to them (despite much slower 12 gpus being fine in relation, like 3060)

their "you're out of vram, we will tank your performance" logic can bring a 4070 to 4060ti levels of performance

4:30



4:43 is hypothetical but you can see that the more out of vram you're, the heavier cost. there difference between 8 gb and 16 gb card raises up to 2x. under right conditions, with maxed out textures but pared back optimized settings, you can practically cause similar 2x performance tank at more reasonable framerates (think of 30 to 60). in my gameplay experience with 3070 in ratchet clank with ray tracing, it is often I was tanking to 30-36 FPS at 960p input at ps5 equivalent settings. only solution was to reduce textures to medium which skyrocketed FPS back to 60+ FPS, where it should be.

it will be quite painful if the exact same thing happens with forbidden west.



this is such an odd behavior when most other engines do proper texture streaming and avoid performance hits and instead stream textures.

 

[SlimySnake]

I wouldn't get my hopes up on the CPU.

Henderson has been on point with the leaks he reports on.

But henderson hasnt said anything about the cpu architecture in either of his articles. only the clock speed.

all we have is speculation from the twitter guys.

 

[Gaiff]

SSM achieved real time neural upsampling of textures with the limited ML capabilities of the PS5 Standard.

Really curious to see what they can pull of with the new ML power of the Pro, now that textures are starting to become a storage bottleneck especially on games like Rebirth. These technologies are going to become even more critical.

Not really. Remake has the exact same problem on PS4 and Intergrade as well. Those guys just screw up.

 

[Gaiff]

well nixxes enforces %30 to %100 performance tank once you're out of vram limits in their ports (percentage depends on how much overflow you have). if they do the same with forbidden west, sadly, that will give a lot of leverage to console folks for their argument that ps5 is a magical box that outperforms its equivalent hardware. and alex most likely won't do a direct console vs. 8 GB RTX GPU just like he avoided doing with spiderman and ratchet and clank. nixxes is now doing the port and we can expect similar memory management "strategies" from them

He didn't do the comparisons because it's pretty much impossible due to DRS. Games like Returnal, God of War, HZD, TLOU Part I, and a few others are easy to do owing to their static resolution. NxGamer did one for R&C and you could blatantly see how the more aggressive DRS on PS5 helped it keep a better target frame rate rather than the granular DRS approach on PC. That and first-party Sony games with good DRS seldom dip below their target fps for any significant length of time. The guys have to wander around until they find a specific spot that permanently sits below 60 or 30 and then get to that same part on PC. I expect them to do the comparison with HFW since if I'm not mistaken, there is no DRS.

 

[SlimySnake]

1. Can the average consumer be convinced they need 60fps at 4K? (assuming the tech and devs deliver)

Average customer doesnt care.

2. Will the enthusiasts who are choosing PC in order to maximize performance be woo'ed by the Pro?

I was woo'd by the PS4 Pro, I thought it was worth the upgrade. I didnt even have a 4k tv at first but i was blown away by the downsampled ratchet which looked straight up cg quality on a 1080p tv. battlefield 1 was barely running at 38 fps on the base ps4 in larger maps, but i was getting a locked 60 fps on the pro. Then there were big games like FF16 and TLG which looked absolutely marvelous on my new 4k tv. And that was just the first month. Within a year, we had Horizon blowing minds in 4kcb and then GT Sports later that year. SOTC and GOW offered 60 fps modes the year after, and since the shooters were all 60 fps anyway with far more stable framerates on the pro, it kept me from going pc for a good 3 years until nvidia forced my hands with RT.

Things are different now with sony porting everything to pc, but i suspect the same enthusiasts who bought the ps4 pro to the tune of 20% sales split, will buy this thing. guys a certain age have been sitting on no new purchases in the last 3 years thanks to nintendo refusing to release a pro and xbox giving them no reason to own two consoles. Even if this ships at $600, there will be a major demand for it. The longer Sony waits though, the more people will switch to PC. This thing shouldve been released last year when games like Alan Wake 2, Avatar and Star Wars were struggling to run at good resolutions in their 60 fps modes. Now with FF7 and Dragons Dogma getting poor press, it will turn more people to PC unless sony shows them they have something for them. PC hardware sales are already going up while the console sales are slowing down according to sony themselves. they need to stop being coy and reveal this thing already.

I will wait and see if sony can offer 4k dlss performance with ray tracing on because i already have a pretty decent graphics card, but i might end up getting it to play Death stranding 2 and GTA6 which is effectively a console exclusive.

 

[Bojji]

well nixxes enforces %30 to %100 performance tank once you're out of vram limits in their ports (percentage depends on how much overflow you have). if they do the same with forbidden west, sadly, that will give a lot of leverage to console folks for their argument that ps5 is a magical box that outperforms its equivalent hardware. and alex most likely won't do a direct console vs. 8 GB RTX GPU just like he avoided doing with spiderman and ratchet and clank. nixxes is now doing the port and we can expect similar memory management "strategies" from them

ps5 equivalent textures will most likely be the ultra option so any comparison that will involve those textures will probably see 8 GB cards heavily tank in performance and make PS5 seem superior to them (despite much slower 12 gpus being fine in relation, like 3060)

their "you're out of vram, we will tank your performance" logic can bring a 4070 to 4060ti levels of performance

4:30



4:43 is hypothetical but you can see that the more out of vram you're, the heavier cost. there difference between 8 gb and 16 gb card raises up to 2x. under right conditions, with maxed out textures but pared back optimized settings, you can practically cause similar 2x performance tank at more reasonable framerates (think of 30 to 60). in my gameplay experience with 3070 in ratchet clank with ray tracing, it is often I was tanking to 30-36 FPS at 960p input at ps5 equivalent settings. only solution was to reduce textures to medium which skyrocketed FPS back to 60+ FPS, where it should be.

it will be quite painful if the exact same thing happens with forbidden west.



this is such an odd behavior when most other engines do proper texture streaming and avoid performance hits and instead stream textures.

Yeah this is really fucked up behavior but in this case with Decima engine results might be different, they also have that 3070 for "high" preset alongside 16GB 6800. This game also don't have RT so maybe it won't be a memory hog.

 

[lh032]

As a ps4 owner i never got the pro version, for some reason im very intrigued on the performance improvement now. Pro day 1 for me.

 

[yamaci17]

He didn't do the comparisons because it's pretty much impossible due to DRS. Games like Returnal, God of War, HZD, TLOU Part I, and a few others are easy to do owing to their static resolution. NxGamer did one for R&C and you could blatantly see how the more aggressive DRS on PS5 helped it keep a better target frame rate rather than the granular DRS approach on PC. That and first-party Sony games with good DRS seldom dip below their target fps for any significant length of time. The guys have to wander around until they find a specific spot that permanently sits below 60 or 30 and then get to that same part on PC. I expect them to do the comparison with HFW since if I'm not mistaken, there is no DRS.

Well, if forbidden west ends up with VRAM based performance scaling like the other nixxes ports, I wish all of us a good luck because chaos will ensue lol

isn't there a "vrr" mode on ps5 that makes resolution as static as possible with ratchet and clank though ?

 

[Majukun]

how long can this gen actually last?

 

[Wooxsvan]

how long can this gen actually last?

2027ish

 

[nosoynadie22]

 

[Codeblew]

i need confirmation on the zen 2 CPU and ram count. Especially since RT adds to the vram pool and better RT would mean a higher allotment of it. They also said 256MB ram hit thanks to PSSR so if they keep the ram the same, its going to become a bottleneck.

really fucking hope they have gone to zen 4 CPUs.

If memory is the bottleneck, what good is a faster CPU? So it can sit there idle waiting for memory to be available?

 

[DonJimbo]

I hope the whole package justifies me to buy it im not hyped at all like for the Neo

 

[MasterCornholio]

Which turned out to be barely anything thanks to all the comparisons we have. Only chance Microsoft had to achieve any massive differences is with a new console.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Would Cyberpunk RT overdrive/path tracing be possible on PS5 pro then do we know? Or is that a pipe dream?

Rumor is PS5 Pro is performing like a 4070 meaning it could run it at around 30fps (while 4090 runs it at around 60fps). But who wants to play at 30fps on a Pro machine? Path tracing is for PS6.

 

[Brigandier]

I hope the Pro looks nicer than the base model as it looks like an oversized cheap router, Fingers crossed it's as quiet too.

 

[Cyborg]

The obsession about comparing PS5Pro with a PC is just insane. Two different products targeting different groups.
A console will never outperfom a PC (it doesn't have to) we are passed the PS1/2 era.

 

[TheRedRiders]

Not really. Remake has the exact same problem on PS4 and Intergrade as well. Those guys just screw up.

We don't even actually know what's causing the shitty texture issues on a technical level, UE4's virtual texture streaming is pretty solid (or should be), and usually pairs well with high bandwidth SSD's, the only reason I can think of is texture file size bottleneck.

Regardless, my point still stands, the move to higher resolution assets and especially textures which have a large storage and memory footprint needs to be addressed, as this problem is only going to get worse.(8K textures in a fully fledged triple A game is a pipe dream at the moment). Neural upsampling of textures in real time offers a great solution given the hardware is available.

 

[Thick Thighs Save Lives]

Most likely bullshit, but dropping this one here nonetheless (starts at 49:00).

I can mention that they've been doing testing with the dev kits on the ps5 pro - like I said, I dont know any of the specs, nothing like that, they didnt talk about any of that - just the results of them brute forcing their previously released games to see whats possible

So the one they mentioned to me - still in progress, may not be final, they're saying that this DLSS solution that they're using (which is this PSSR) is actually beyond their expectations. This is from EA, this is from developers at EA, Specifically from Respawn. And they did say they did say that they were able to get specifically Jedi Survivor to 4k 120 with absolutely 0 hiccups

So, Now this comes from them, not from me! It's not a "trust me bro", I'm reading it right here. "You can mention Star Wars Jedi Survivor is running at 4k 120" and he says you can mention it on your podcast (laughs) since it's already starting to leak anyway

 

[Loxus]

Most likely bullshit, but dropping this one here nonetheless (starts at 49:00).

Depending on the game PS5 Pro can achieve 4k120 / 8k60 with PSSR, so I'm not surprised.

 

[Moses85]

They’ll show the games when it gets advertised.
I personally can’t wait to see how existing games like Elden Ring look in 8K.

ER will still look like a PS4 Game…

 

[SmokSmog]

Bad news, if GTA6 will push base PS5 to 30FPS because of the world simulation then PS5 PRO will be limited to 30FPS too because of the CPU which is the same with minor clock bump.

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

Most likely bullshit, but dropping this one here nonetheless (starts at 49:00).

Can we please start ignoring these Poormans Eastwood Clown??

 

[Thick Thighs Save Lives]

Can we please start ignoring these Poormans Eastwood Clown??

Just to be clear, I don't watch his podcast nor do I follow him on X/Twitter. The deets including the transcription was from this reddit post on GamingLeaksAndRumours.

 

[Rick Dangerous]

Excited if proved true.
Ps5 pro + TCL 75x935 for the win for holiday 2024.

 

[Unknown?]

Even $600 isn't that good of a deal.

Last gen we got PS4 Pro at $400. The same as launch PS4, for a bigger increase in GPU performance.

PS5 should be $400 by now and PS5 Pro should be $500. I'll be selling my PS5 and hoping for a price drop and PS5 Pro replacing the old price (like PS4 Pro).

Inflation my dude. $400 in 2016 is the equivalent to $754 today thanks to all of the currency creation. Don't look at numerical numbers, look at value.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Most likely bullshit, but dropping this one here nonetheless (starts at 49:00).

I believe it we will see games doing this though not sure I believe he actually got that info

 

[marjo]

Inflation my dude. $400 in 2016 is the equivalent to $754 today thanks to all of the currency creation. Don't look at numerical numbers, look at value.

No, that's not correct. $400 in 2016 is the equivalent of $517 today.

 

[Unknown?]

No, that's not correct. $400 in 2016 is the equivalent of $517 today.

That's correct using CPI data, but I'm using a better inflation data that more accurately shows real inflation.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Most likely bullshit, but dropping this one here nonetheless (starts at 49:00).

So ended up watching them mainly about how Xbox plans to respond and they think nextbox launches in 2026 (I think its highly like, possible late 2025) and they said they both recently heard the digital Series X had been shelved for this year which I also agree with as that was being said 6 months ago which I posted about both here on GAF

 

[Crispy Gamer]

I'm excited for the potential of more devs adding RT to their games it's also smart of Sony to create and include PSSR for the Pro so devs can be a lot more proficient when the PS6 comes.

 

[rickybooby87]

DF Direct Special incoming this week. Looks like DF might have the goods on PS5 Pro info that hasn't been leaked yet. Alex better be there for my amusement sake.

Where is this snipped from?

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

So ended up watching them mainly about how Xbox plans to respond and they think nextbox launches in 2026 (I think its highly like, possible late 2025) and they said they both recently heard the digital Series X had been shelved for this year which I also agree with as that was being said 6 months ago which I posted about both here on GAF

I still think MS releasing a "next Xbox" in 2025 or even 2026 (which could likely be 2-3 years before the launch of the PS6) will be a colossal mistake. I still can't think of how (or why) the decision makers at Xbox, all sat down and when deciding on the best thing to do with the platform, they somehow decided that what they needed to do was make a new console as early as possible—especially knowing full well, that that new console will be sharing it library entirely with not just the Seriex X/S, but more importantly, also with the PS5.

How did that happen?

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

I still think MS releasing a "next Xbox" in 2025 or even 2026 (which could likely be 2-3 years before the launch of the PS6) will be a colossal mistake. I still can't think of how (or why) the decision makers at Xbox, all sat down and when deciding on the best thing to do with the platform, they somehow decided that what they needed to do was make a new console as early as possible—especially knowing full well, that that new console will be sharing it library entirely with not just the Seriex X/S, but more importantly, also with the PS5.

How did that happen?

So to kind of piggyback what the one guy was saying in that video I know at one point the Xbox upper management would gather at a round table to discuss major things

This round table they actually left Ybarras seat open to remind them who they work for, the gamer since he was a true gamer (How a gaming console maker could forget who they work for is beyond me)

Anyhow, the way I understand it at one of these sounding board meetings someone (I dont know how) put out last summer that they heard GTA VI was launching late 2025 what if we could push nextbox to launch along side it this could possibly sell us a lot of consoles if its by far the superior place to play.

It was given the green light to pursue and investigate whats possible to launch a next gen box at this time

Now usually at their meeting many options are discussed and many of those are usually not given the green light but several do and of those we only see a tiny bit make it to market

So its not like everyone at Xbox and MS was all on board with launching nextbox early at an inflated cost but they have spent a lot of money pursuing it

Where it stands today I don't really know but I have seen more people like in this video saying they think nextbox is coming early, they said 2026, so its getting traction.

I first mentioned this here on GAF in Aug of last year

 

[marjo]

That's correct using CPI data, but I'm using a better inflation data that more accurately shows real inflation.

What inflation measure is showing an 88% increase in the last 8 years? I find that very hard to believe.

 

[Codeblew]

What inflation measure is showing an 88% increase in the last 8 years? I find that very hard to believe.

Curious to know myself. I am definitely not spending anywhere close to 88% more annually than I was in 2016.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

So to kid of piggyback what the one guy was saying in that video I know at one point the Xbox upper management would gather at a round table to discuss major things

This round table they actually left Ybarras seat open to remind them who they work for, the gamer since he was a true gamer (How a gaming console maker could forget who they work for is beyond me)

Anyhow, the way I understand it at one of these sounding board meetings someone (I dont know how) put out last summer that they heard GTA VI was launching late 2025 what if we could push nextbox to launch along side it this could possibly sell us a lot of consoles if its by far the superior place to play.

It was given the green light to pursue and investigate whats possible to launch a next gen box at this time

Now usually at their meeting many options are discussed and many of those are usually not given the green light but several do and of those we only see a tiny bit make it to market

So its not like everyone at Xbox and MS was all on board with launching nextbox early at an inflated cost but they have spent a lot of money pursuing it

Where it stands today I don't really know but I have seen more people like in this video saying they think nextbox is coming early, they said 2026, so its getting traction.

I first mentioned this here on GAF in Aug of last year

Wow... so the plan was to release it in line with GTA6 and they felt that would jump-start the Xbox because at the time it would be the best place to play the game.... performance-wise?

This now sounds even dumber than I originally thought.

I used to think the reason Xbox kept faltering was because they were incompetent, now I think it's not just that, but also because they never learn from their mistakes and seem to make all their decisions in a 12-year-olds echo chamber.

Like even right off the back of the XSX, they still somehow feel that having the most powerful box will win them something. How many times do they have to lose banking on that horse? And now, they are trying to tie the entire fate of a new platform to not just one game, but one game that is also coming to a platform that at the time would have an install base of around 90-100M. Like there is not a single person that can say... hey... lets stop. This is a bad idea.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Wow... so the plan was to release it in line with GTA6 and they felt that would jump-start the Xbox because at the time it would be the best place to play the game.... performance-wise?

This now sounds even dumber than I originally thought.

I used to think the reason Xbox kept faltering was because they were incompetent, now I think it's not just that, but also because they never learn from their mistakes and seem to make all their decisions in a 12-year-olds echo chamber.

Like even right off the back of the XSX, they still somehow feel that having the most powerful box will win them something. How many times do they have to lose banking on that horse? And now, they are trying to tie the entire fate of a new platform to not just one game, but one game that is also coming to a platform that at the time would have an install base of around 90-100M. Like there is not a single person that can say... hey... lets stop. This is a bad idea.

Yeah I don't know how well overall it was received but it gathered enough support to invest a lot of money looking into it

Kepler thinks its happening as well or at least did at one point

 

[Imtjnotu]

Yeah I don't know how well overall it was received but it gathered enough support to invest a lot of money looking into it

Kepler thinks its happening as well or at least did at one point

IF Sony's machine is launching at $599 for the specs it has this year, no chance MS releases a machine for less than $699 to beat Sony's specs. Especially at the prices chip fab is at right now on 3 and 4nm

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

IF Sony's machine is launching at $599 for the specs it has this year, no chance MS releases a machine for less than $699 to beat Sony's specs. Especially at the prices chip fab is at right now on 3 and 4nm

Agreed I think their traditional based console would likely be pretty expensive

I know some who will still buy it even at say $800 over getting a PC IF it can come in around GTA VI launch window and clearly be the best place to play

Heck I would be one of them for GTA VI alone