Playboi Carti
Member
Pro consoles are not made overnight, if at this point there are no rumours about a Pro console from MS then it ain't happening. And no point in releasing Pro console in 2025 either.
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PS5 Pro Specs Leak are Real, Releasing Holiday 2024(Insider Gaming)
- Thread starter jm89
- Start date
Loxus
Member
After some thought looking at Game 1 different modes.
From my understanding looking at the target, the PS5 Pro mode is basically Fidelity Mode, but running at double framerate.
The 1440p implies to me the GPU is the bottleneck, so the CPU is actually not bad.
The fact they had to drop the resolution has has me wondering if dual-issue is used.
So we know RDNA3/4 has 4 SIMD32.
2× Float / INT / Matrix SIMD32
2× Float / Matrix SIMD32
What I'm thinking is the 2 Float / INT / Matrix SIMD32 are responsible for AI upscaling and the 2 Float Matrix SIMD32 are responsible for rendering.
How to accelerate AI applications on RDNA 3 using WMMA
Here you can see only 1 SIMD32 can do (Float) and the other SIMD32 can do (Float or INT)
So the PS5 Pro actually has a 16.75 TF GPU.
This also explains why RDNA3 in general doesn't perform like the TF suggests.
So dual-issue means AMD GPUs can run Float and Matrix operations at the same time.
winjer
I think I understand you a bit with the Vectors. The AI Accelerators are dedicated for Matrix accelerations, not the SIMD32 which are required to do Matrix or Float operations.
From my understanding looking at the target, the PS5 Pro mode is basically Fidelity Mode, but running at double framerate.
The 1440p implies to me the GPU is the bottleneck, so the CPU is actually not bad.
The fact they had to drop the resolution has has me wondering if dual-issue is used.
So we know RDNA3/4 has 4 SIMD32.
2× Float / INT / Matrix SIMD32
2× Float / Matrix SIMD32
What I'm thinking is the 2 Float / INT / Matrix SIMD32 are responsible for AI upscaling and the 2 Float Matrix SIMD32 are responsible for rendering.
How to accelerate AI applications on RDNA 3 using WMMA
WMMA Overview
Unlike traditional per-thread matrix multiplication, WMMA allows the GPU to perform matrix multiplication cooperatively across an entire wavefront of 32 threads in wave32 mode or 64 threads in wave64 mode. This provides the benefit of sharing input/output matrix data across lanes of a wave, thus optimizing the VGPR usage and reducing memory traffic.
Here you can see only 1 SIMD32 can do (Float) and the other SIMD32 can do (Float or INT)
This explains why the Pro's GPU only has a 45% faster rendering over the PS5.So the PS5 Pro actually has a 16.75 TF GPU.
This also explains why RDNA3 in general doesn't perform like the TF suggests.
So dual-issue means AMD GPUs can run Float and Matrix operations at the same time.
winjer
I think I understand you a bit with the Vectors. The AI Accelerators are dedicated for Matrix accelerations, not the SIMD32 which are required to do Matrix or Float operations.
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MisterXDTV
Member
Just check sales thread: it's more likely they stop making consoles for good than they make a third console this gen....
They will go full third-party sooner than later.....
Sony has been working on this model for 2 years anyway.
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N1tr0sOx1d3
Given another chance
Would Cyberpunk RT overdrive/path tracing be possible on PS5 pro then do we know? Or is that a pipe dream?
winjer
Gold Member
I'm not sure if you know this. But Matrices are basically operations on groups of Vectors.
So it makes sense to have WMMA in the Vector units. It's just one more step.
Regarding the Dual Issue units. It might be possible if there is enough registry size. And support for FMA.
yamaci17
Member
path tracing requires very fast ray tracing cores
even 7900 xtx struggles with path tracing big time and is %30 slower than 3070
and 7900 xtx is 3x faster than 6700xt with path tracing.
yeah its going to be difficult. at least at native 1080p. even 7900 xtx barely gets 15 fps there. should get around 30 fps with upscaling. but then again, it also is a 7900 xtx...
upscaling has to be VERY good as well (because you only get playable framerates at 720p internal resolution with 3070 tier path tracing performance)
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N1tr0sOx1d3
Given another chance
path tracing requires very fast ray tracing cores
even 7900 xtx struggles with path tracing big time and is %30 slower than 3070
and 7900 xtx is 3x faster than 6700xt with path tracing.
yeah its going to be difficult. at least at native 1080p. even 7900 xtx barely gets 15 fps there. should get around 30 fps with upscaling. but then again, it also is a 7900 xtx...
upscaling has to be VERY good as well (because you only get playable framerates at 720p internal resolution with 3070 tier path tracing performance)
Thanks for taking the time to go to that much detail
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
path tracing requires very fast ray tracing cores
even 7900 xtx struggles with path tracing big time and is %30 slower than 3070
and 7900 xtx is 3x faster than 6700xt with path tracing.
yeah its going to be difficult. at least at native 1080p. even 7900 xtx barely gets 15 fps there. should get around 30 fps with upscaling. but then again, it also is a 7900 xtx...
upscaling has to be VERY good as well (because you only get playable framerates at 720p internal resolution with 3070 tier path tracing performance)
I think it'd be feasible at 30fps with PSSR upscaling from a lower resolution like 900p or 720p. Sure, it would look a bit soft but we've seen games reconstructing from 720p to 1080p with FSR1. Surely, PSSR can't be as bad?
yamaci17
Member
7900 xtx seems to get there with FSR 2. I guess here performance is mainly limited by ray tracing cores. but if compute cores also has an effect on overall performance, 7900 xtx has a serious compute advantage over ps5 pro. so technically ps5 pro may need a bit more aggresive upscaling in this scenario
but of course this is assuming running path tracing at its default state. there are mods that reduce the amount of rays being cast and amount of bounces etc. that grant decent performance improvements.
at the very least, ps5 pro will allow ray traced global illumination for cyberpunk. I'm sure they will do it
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Thats what I thought initially a couple of years ago, but then Guardians of the Galaxy ran perfectly fine at 100 FPS ultra settings on a 6600xt while the PS5 and XSX were dropping below 1080p consistently with paired back settings. Thats a GPU with just 256 Gbps of vram bandwidth. There were other examples i cant recall at the moment. PS5 and XSX have issues running games at 1080p because of the CPU bottleneck. Good look with 1440p 60 fps.
Just take helldivers as an example, it drops even at 1080p. Yes, it might be running at higher framerates at times but the drops suggest that its not a rock solid 60 fps. FF16 and Avatar drop to 720p to maintain 60 fps and still have drops. So no, you cant just assume they average around 70 fps. Even if you assume 70 fps, thats what? 15% extra performance? That plus 45% gets you to 60%. Still not at the 76% you need to go from 1080p to 1440p.
What makes you say that? DLSS has a cost on the GPU just like traditional FSR2. I game on PC and even if you drop to 1440p internal resolution when using 4k dlss quality, you get maybe 50-70% more frames, not the 100% more frames i typically get when i simply drop to native 1440p. It has just as high a cost as FSR2 which is around 25-30%. I can run some tests for you if you want. currently playing Suicide Squad and Brothers on 4k dlss quality.
Like I said, thats what I initially thought they would do. Take 1080p and upscale to 4k aka 4k DLSS performance. 4k DLSS balanced is 1296p which is around 2.8 million pixels and is even better. But I am just reading their own chart and they literally said 1440p USING PSSR. if they had said 1800p or 4k USING PSSR i would be inclined to agree with you because that was my assumption as well.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
James Sawyer Ford
Member
ChiefDada
Gold Member
Upcomimg Nvidia 50 series aside, I don't see why PS5 Pro would need to pass on any RT feature set typically reserved for PC (at reasonable resolution/fps of course) now that rt and ai upscaling tools are available.
winjer
Gold Member
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Audiophile
Member
I hope Sony get most of their first and second party stuff updated at or near launch with Pro modes and that at least the third party big-hitters like CP2077, Alan Wake, Avatar etc see updates too.
A few bundles like Star Wars: Outlaws or AC: Red for eg. would go down well with patches ready for launch.
I expect there'll be another cut-off point after which all titles released must have a Pro mode. I recall the PS4 Pro having one (I think it was early in the following year, something like March-June...it was definitely mentioned in a DF article).
A few bundles like Star Wars: Outlaws or AC: Red for eg. would go down well with patches ready for launch.
I expect there'll be another cut-off point after which all titles released must have a Pro mode. I recall the PS4 Pro having one (I think it was early in the following year, something like March-June...it was definitely mentioned in a DF article).
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Salty Popsicle
Banned
Leonidas
AMD's Dogma: ARyzen (No Intel inside)
4070 is close to 80% in raster rendering vs. standard PS5 GPU. 45% is not close to 80%.
PS5 Pro will lose in a majority of cases.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
4070 is not a closed box
Mr.Phoenix
Member
I think taking that charet too literally is the issue. Its obviously cant or wont apply to every single dev and every single engine out there. I look at that chart as some sort of use case guideline. Nothing stops them from rendering at 1296p then PSSRing that to 4k. Or in cases where the game allows, running at 1440p instead and using PSSR to get it to 4k.
All I know for certain is, in every case, the og PS5 will be the baseline. If a game is running in native 4K@30fps on the PS5, the PS5pro should be able to get that game to run at 1296p-1440p then PSSR that to 4K@ as close to 60fps as possible and let VRR smooth out the difference. I believe in games going forward on the PS5pro, we will see the standard fidelity mode, which will lock to 30fps and locked 4K or whatever, the standard 1080p-based performance mode that in the case of the PS5pro will be pushing over 80fps, and a PSSR (balanced?) mode which will target 60fps, and drop the internal rez to somewhere between 1296p-1440p, then PSSR that to 4K.
And like with all things gaming, some devs will accomplish this feat better than others.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Short answer. Yes. On a 3080 equivalent RT hardware sure.
Long answer: Yes at 30 fps, no at 60 fps.
Assuming what Sony is saying about ray tracing being 2-4x faster is true and they are able to get close to nvidia levels of performance than yes, its possible at 30 fps. 2-4x RT speeds would put them close to 4070/3080 levels of rt performance. I was able to run PT with medium settings at 4k dlss performance at around 30 fps on my 3080. not a locked 30 fps but with some settings set to low, i think i might have gotten there. Maybe Sony would have to settle for 1440p dlss balanced so 960p internal resolution, but they can play around with resolution and visual settings to get a locked 30 fps. 1440p dlss balanced is another option at 864p internal resolution.
My CPU is way stronger than PS5 and PS5 Pro CPU, but i was also able to run it at 60 fps by dropping resolution all the way down to 720p using 1440p dlss performance. Again, it had drops to 50 fps in some spots. but overall, it ran at a fairly consistent 60 fps. Game is CPU bound with PT and RT on, and if you want 60 fps, you better have a CPU better than the zen 2 cerny stuck in the PS5.
My CPU goes all the way up to 125 watts in the 60 fps mode in this video. No other game has hit my CPU quite like this aside from some cinebench benchmarks designed to max out CPUs. The PS5 pro likely has 20-30 watts max set aside for the CPU. The GPU will likely take 80% of the 180 watt APU budget which means 60 fps for PT is impossible. Other RT games like Avatar run at 60 fps at 720p already on PS5 but PT is a different beast on the CPU.
P.S bare in mind, these videos are when overdrive was still in beta and i noticed performance has improved slightly since. Also i am using ray reconstruction which also had a performance cost.
60 fps test. 1440p dlss performance (720p internal res)
30 fps test. 4k dlss performance. (1080p internal res)
Mr.Phoenix
Member
I have got a safehouse/bunker for you bro. Just in case, you never know who those Sony ninjas have got on their things-to-do list.
Audiophile
Member
Finger's-crossed the fan noise is reasonable. Don't think I can deal with another hairdryer after experiencing the near-silent PS5.
SolidQ
Member
3070 still slower than 7900XTX in C2077 PT
This is your "15fps"
That AFMF version that how sony can do with PSSR
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Leonidas
AMD's Dogma: ARyzen (No Intel inside)
PS5 was, and didn't magically outperform PC equivalent GPUs, in most cases. You can point to TLOU, and maybe one other game, maybe.
Closed box also means PS5 GPU is stuck with weak Zen2 cores and FPS limits.
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James Sawyer Ford
Member
Sure it does on MANY games optimized for PS5
Leonidas
AMD's Dogma: ARyzen (No Intel inside)
Name them.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
Pretty much the entirety of Sony ported games
Perrott
Member
Since Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart was used to demonstrate the benefits of PSSR internally, I'd expect all Insomniac titles on the PS5 to receive Pro patches.
Guerrilla and some unknown partner are also expected to drop a Horizon: Zero Dawn remake somewhere around the launch of the PS5 Pro, so I'd guess they may want to revisit Forbidden West/Burning Shores and provide some light enhancements to those, bringing them on par with the remake.
Naughty Dog (The Last Of Us Part I, Part II Remastered, Legacy of Thieves Collection), Sucker Punch (Ghost of Tsushima Director's Cut) and Housemarque (Returnal) have all been known for updating their titles to take advantage of the latest PlayStation hardware in the past (The Last Of Us Remastered, Uncharted 4, Part II, inFAMOUS Second Son, First Light, Ghost of Tsushima, Resogun, Super Stardust Ultra), so I think it's likely that their PS5 stuff would get patched.
And it's kinda guaranteed that Arrowhead, Polyphony and Santa Monica are going to patch Helldivers II, Gran Turismo 7 and God of War: Ragnarök, since all three of those titles are and will continue to enjoy of long legs when it comes to sales, plus, the first two are actually live-service games.
The only one I'm not so sure its studio would actually care to revisit would be Demon's Souls, since Bluepoint doesn't seem to have a history of long-term support for their titles.
I think for the PS4 Pro the cut-off point was that all titles released in October 2016 and moving forward would have to support the console.
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Killer8
Member
Reducing the pool of people making content for a new console they are trying to convince people to buy doesn't sound like the brightest idea, Tom. Sony already knew this was going to leak at some point.
path tracing requires very fast ray tracing cores
even 7900 xtx struggles with path tracing big time and is %30 slower than 3070
and 7900 xtx is 3x faster than 6700xt with path tracing.
yeah its going to be difficult. at least at native 1080p. even 7900 xtx barely gets 15 fps there. should get around 30 fps with upscaling. but then again, it also is a 7900 xtx...
upscaling has to be VERY good as well (because you only get playable framerates at 720p internal resolution with 3070 tier path tracing performance)
RDNA 3 cards do much better in the latest Cyberpunk benchmarks.
Cyberpunk 2077 v 2.1 тест GPU/CPU | Action / FPS / TPS | TEST GPU
Мы выполнили тестирование Cyberpunk 2077 v 2. 1 на наивысших параметрах графики, на видеокартах из серий GEFORCE RTX и RADEON R
Typically the 7900 XTX performs around a 3080 with pathtracing, so the original results were anomalous.
N1tr0sOx1d3
Given another chance
Once again, a huge thank you for putting this amount of effort in explaining in realistic terms expectations of this hardware. It is very much appreciated and keeps my mind in check.
I want this for VR but ofc the benefits for games outside of this too.
Thank you
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Thats what I had figured but that CPU upgrade or lack thereof is giving me pause. We shall see.
I would think Sony's own internal first party devs mentioned in the leaked specs would be far better at this than third party devs. So thats partially why this is kinda troubling.
Third party devs like these FF7 Rebirth, Dragons Dogma and Rise of Ronin devs are either unable to hit 60 fps or create some of the ugliest 60 fps modes ever seen. Every UE4 and UE5 game is a mess on consoles in their 60 fps modes. I have zero faith in any of the devs to do better than what Sony's own third party are doing above. UE5 and UE4 are actually very single threaded so while they look great and perform well in their 30 fps modes, they completely fall apart in 60 fps modes. Many games have actually stripped out RT from performance modes. My guess is due to the slow clock speeds and UE engine's singlethreaded bottlenecks. But we will see how the ray tracing modes perform. They are saying ray tracing is a straight 30 to 60 fps increase. no mention of resolution downgrade or anything else for that matter so maybe they have some secret sauce we dont know about.
GrouchyGamer
Neo Member
I'm out on this from the jump. Optional detachable disc drive is where I get off as someone who owns all physical copies of my games. Also the space where Ive had my PS since PS4 isn't set up to accomidate another peripheral device.
Have fun yall.
Have fun yall.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
i need confirmation on the zen 2 CPU and ram count. Especially since RT adds to the vram pool and better RT would mean a higher allotment of it. They also said 256MB ram hit thanks to PSSR so if they keep the ram the same, its going to become a bottleneck.DF Direct Special incoming this week. Looks like DF might have the goods on PS5 Pro info that hasn't been leaked yet. Alex better be there for my amusement sake.
really fucking hope they have gone to zen 4 CPUs.
jm89
Member
I wouldn't get my hopes up on the CPU.
Henderson has been on point with the leaks he reports on.
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LavitzSlambert
Member
It's a really lame and safe take, but with how long it takes for development nowadays I don't think it's going to be more of an improvement than the PS4 Pro. Considering there is no jump to 4K TVs to convince the average person to upgrade, the success of this will ultimately be up to a couple factors:
1. Can the average consumer be convinced they need 60fps at 4K? (assuming the tech and devs deliver)
2. Will the enthusiasts who are choosing PC in order to maximize performance be woo'ed by the Pro?
I see it ending up ultimately like the PS4 Pro - probably not worth the upgrade, but worthwhile for people who at first buying the console. Good for a few years until next gen gets started and Pro owners are in a weird spot with good hardware and worse versions of cross-gen games that aren't utilizing the full power of the PS6.
1. Can the average consumer be convinced they need 60fps at 4K? (assuming the tech and devs deliver)
2. Will the enthusiasts who are choosing PC in order to maximize performance be woo'ed by the Pro?
I see it ending up ultimately like the PS4 Pro - probably not worth the upgrade, but worthwhile for people who at first buying the console. Good for a few years until next gen gets started and Pro owners are in a weird spot with good hardware and worse versions of cross-gen games that aren't utilizing the full power of the PS6.
Rocco Schiavone
Member
I would care more about the PSU and the coil whine.
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
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Zathalus
Member
That doesn't really matter these days. The far majority of all games run within 10% of the console on a comparable PC GPU.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
Explain Sony FP ports
yamaci17
Member
nice to hear then, ps5 pro has a real chance at path tracing at 30 fps / 1440p upscaling thenRDNA 3 cards do much better in the latest Cyberpunk benchmarks.
Cyberpunk 2077 v 2.1 тест GPU/CPU | Action / FPS / TPS | TEST GPU
Мы выполнили тестирование Cyberpunk 2077 v 2. 1 на наивысших параметрах графики, на видеокартах из серий GEFORCE RTX и RADEON Rgamegpu.com
Typically the 7900 XTX performs around a 3080 with pathtracing, so the original results were anomalous.
Zathalus
Member
You mean the games that were originally designed for the PS5 only then ported by a different studio to PC years later? The ports that have famously all launched with various issues ranging from missing features to outright broken textures?
The only Sony games that run really well are the Decima engine ones, I'd assume due to all the work done by Kojima, considering how amazing Death Stranding runs. Probably why the upcoming Forbidden West release has requirements in line with what you would expect.
yamaci17
Member
i was referring to launch benchmarks. apparently it was misleading and I didnt follow amd performance since then. i stand corrected
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Besides Uncharted and TLOU Part I, most Sony ports run very well these days. Hell, Returnal runs at PS5 equivalent settings and frame rate on something like an RTX 3060.
The one thing to watch out for is VRAM. The PS5 has more VRAM than most cards that it's comparable to and first-party devs will use that amount. 8GB GPUs need not apply. Even 10GB might not be enough. Usually, you need 11-12GB which is what I assume the PS5 uses.
ChiefDada
Gold Member
They always get blamed for being "shitty ports" and never because of low level console optimization. But in reality, these optimizations are always taking place. Part of the reason why I don’t understand people wildly underestimating opportunities for PS5 Pro to leverage dual issue compute.
As example, GDC presentation on God of War Ragnarok ML texture upsampling
MisterXDTV
Member
If you take DLSS 2 as reference you have this internal resolutions for 4K (2160p) output:
I think they can find a way to reach at least the "Balance" preset
Code:
Presets:
Quality: 2560x1440
Balance: 2227x1253
Performance: 1920x1080
Ultra Perf: 1280x720I think they can find a way to reach at least the "Balance" preset
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ChiefDada
Gold Member
That will be an interesting one to watch, particularly Burning Shores.