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[TheYanger]

It is almost entirely made up. The whole thing was blown way out of proportion. Operatives were not OP. Its fact. Accept it.

What a compelling argument, I've seen the error of my ways!
Seriously, this was in response to saying you can literally just watch pvp videos and see the sick shit an operative could do, and you just say "nope made up, they suck it's a fact" ?!

God damn you're full of shit. Play any other class and then compare it to what operatives could do. If you were a terrible operative, sorry, but that doesn't make the class shit, it makes you shit. Plenty of AMAZING operatives existed that would completely decimate people during their bullshit stuns. "OMG NOT STUNLOCK YOU GOT OUT AT 10% HP" seems to be your answer to everything. Like, the fact that you might live through the stun is somehow a counter to the shit the operatives do while you can't fight back. "Oh Operatives can't do anything else and have 0 armor"...so basically, your argument is, if you knock me on my ass, and rape me with your stupid ass knife, and I live with 20% of my health, you suddenly now have zero chance of beating me? Because that is absolutely not the case.

 

[CzarTim]

Operatives were the only class that could take down my heal-spec mando 1v1. Didn't really bother me though, there was just no way to counter it.

 

[Angelus Errare]

You realize That 'janky' energy mechanic is the EXACT same system literally 50% of the classes in the game use right?

IA energy is different from say Warrior rage or Assassin Force/energy. It regenerates less the lower you go, which is a stupid design choice; my issue isn't with energy itself, it's Bioware's addition of having energy regeneration basically be nothing when it hits rock bottom. I would be completely fine if it were like Shadow/Assassin energy in which its a steady regeneration amount, because it would still allow an operative to attack.

I have a character of every class, and who else has low energy regen when their energy gets low? I honestly don't remember.

The closest is bounty hunter, but as you level they have many damage talents that lower heat to a point where it's not an issue being overheated at high levels. No matter how high level you get as a Operative you will still be energy starved, and once you are. You're kinda fucked since you really have no free attack that doesn't require energy. (I mean they couldn't even give Operatives an energy free melee attack...which makes no sense but whatever.)

 

[Sokantish]

Trooper has an ammo system that works exactly like the Operative. I frequently have to stop using my skills because I don't want my ammo to go below half or it takes forever to regen.

Also I think Operatives do have too much burst,in full champion gear I was killed in the 3second knockdown. I think overall Sage/Sorc is better than Ops though because they can just live forever.

Ops were ridiculous, if you'd actually quit yours when you first said how shitty they were, and rolled another class, you'd have seen how fucking retarded Operatives were in pvp. a 3 second stun that you can't trinket out of and that you get crit for ridiculous numbers during

You can't use your CC breaking skill to get out of it? My trooper CC break can get out of it, I thought they were all the same

 

[Castor Krieg]

IA energy is different from say Warrior rage or Assassin Force/energy. It regenerates less the lower you go, which is a stupid design choice; my issue isn't with energy itself, it's Bioware's addition of having energy regeneration basically be nothing when it hits rock bottom. I would be completely fine if it were like Shadow/Assassin energy in which its a steady regeneration amount, because it would still allow an operative to attack.

I have a character of every class, and who else has low energy regen when their energy gets low? I honestly don't remember.

The closest is bounty hunter, but as you level they have many damage talents that lower heat to a point where it's not an issue being overheated at high levels. No matter how high level you get as a Operative you will still be energy starved, and once you are. You're kinda fucked since you really have no free attack that doesn't require energy. (I mean they couldn't even give Operatives an energy free melee attack...which makes no sense but whatever.)

It is piss easy and straightforward system that actually encourages you to be conservative with healing, and use your most efficient healing abilities. It also makes it very difficult to screw up, you constantly monitor your energy level. This is smart design.

What is not smart is raid bosses being piss easy, so that there is no need to restrict yourself if you're playing a character with fixed mana pool e.g. Sorcerer. Things die well before you run OOM.

The situation where Operative would shine with healing would be in fights like vanilla WoW i.e. extremely tight when it came to mana management. I don't know if you played WoW, but most bosses in vanilla made you go OOM exactly at the very end, which was extremely well design on the part of Blizzard.

No such thing in TOR, here you need brute healing power, which makes other healing classes more viable. Another example of dual/schizophrenic nature of SWTOR.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Trooper has an ammo system that works exactly like the Operative. I frequently have to stop using my skills because I don't want my ammo to go below half or it takes forever to regen.

Also I think Operatives do have too much burst,in full champion gear I was killed in the 3second knockdown. I think overall Sage/Sorc is better than Ops though because they can just live forever.




You can't use your CC breaking skill to get out of it? My trooper CC break can get out of it, I thought they were all the same

Trooper = Bounty Hunter, I'm not sure what the Trooper equivalent is to Mercenary but you get attacking/damaging skills that purge heat. Operatives get a Stim talent but it's kinda high in the Concealment tree, and if you go all healer I'm not sure if you can reach it (never rolled healer so I can't tell).

I mean honestly I have near infinite force energy on my Sorcerer, I can literally spam force lightning forever because I'll regen what I spent on the skill before the skill is over, then lighting strike gives me an 100% chance to increase regen by 10% and stacks 3 times?

lol operatives and bounty hunters. You know it's messed up when the "mana" class has near infinite amount and the "energy" class drains quick and takes forever to recoup.

Sorcerer for life!

It is piss easy and straightforward system that actually encourages you to be conservative with healing, and use your most efficient healing abilities. It also makes it very difficult to screw up, you constantly monitor your energy level. This is smart design.

What is not smart is raid bosses being piss easy, so that there is no need to restrict yourself if you're playing a character with fixed mana pool e.g. Sorcerer. Things die well before you run OOM.

The situation where Operative would shine with healing would be in fights like vanilla WoW i.e. extremely tight when it came to mana management. I don't know if you played WoW, but most bosses in vanilla made you go OOM exactly at the very end, which was extremely well design on the part of Blizzard.

No such thing in TOR, here you need brute healing power, which makes other healing classes more viable. Another example of dual/schizophrenic nature of SWTOR.

I'm not a healer (OMG I know a operative who rolled one of the other two trees, crazy!), I'm concealment, and I've played WoW from beta to Cata and have done every raid the game has had until Cata when I quit. I know how it works.

If you're a DPS sorcerer and you go OOM quick and you weren't offhealing to help someone, you're doing something wrong. If you're low on force, you can literally spam force lightning for next to no cost and weave in lighting strike to get your mana back up pretty quick.

Concealment have no true energy free attack other than...shoot. Which does like no real damage, and why would it? As an operative you're not a ranged class.

Though I am unsure as to how you came to equate "janky" with "hard" the system is easy, this entire game is easy. But operative energy was poorly thought out in regards to long fights, even weaving in a talented stim boost one after another you'll still go out of energy as concealment. And if you can't sustain your DPS, there is no reason to take you to a raid as DPS simple as that.

As for brute force healing? That's definitely not the operative class at all. You brute force you are gonna be energy starved so quick. Put a bubble on the person in question....lol (yes I know Ops don't have bubbles).

The damage reduction, I don't care really. What I would like to see is a our stim pack skill increased. Which would solve most issues with sustained combat.

 

[Dina]

Commando is the equivalent of the Mercenary, and yes they should fix the Force mechanic of dmg sorcs and sages. If I (Vanguard) pump every damage spell I have, I get below the 8 ammo count extremely fast, which borks my regeneration. You never ever want to get below 4 ammo (Max is 12), which makes the amount of ammo you can play with somewhere between 4 and 8. Sure there is a get ammo back spell every 2 minutes, but that's only 6 ammo. There's also a spell which makes the next spell free, but that also has a 2 min CD.

So what you do is you mix in those weaker Hammer Shot skills that cost no ammo, because you have to.

All the while it's no big thing to sorcs. They should be running oom, but they aren't.

edit: also, slows should build resolve.

 

[demented]

Account got approved, can finally post!

I'm on trayus academy and start has been bit shaky.

When I entered my key website ate it up so I spent 11 days waiting, calling etc for them to fix it, then they wouldn't accept my credit card or my friend's who already activated account so no reason not to work, then I bought game card for 2 months zzzz.

Loving the game so far tho, apart from looking for group for heroic quests or flashpoints for hours.

Support might have gotten better tho, another friend had problem with website eating key(gamecard) and they gave him 5 free days and escalated it to be fixed asap hm.

 

[CzarTim]

Commando is the equivalent of the Mercenary, and yes they should fix the Force mechanic of dmg sorcs and sages. If I (Vanguard) pump every damage spell I have, I get below the 8 ammo count extremely fast, which borks my regeneration. You never ever want to get below 4 ammo (Max is 12), which makes the amount of ammo you can play with somewhere between 4 and 8. Sure there is a get ammo back spell every 2 minutes, but that's only 6 ammo. There's also a spell which makes the next spell free, but that also has a 2 min CD.

So what you do is you mix in those weaker Hammer Shot skills that cost no ammo, because you have to.

All the while it's no big thing to sorcs. They should be running oom, but they aren't.

edit: also, slows should build resolve.

Yep. That and the shield is why the sorc and sage is op.

 

[Castor Krieg]

As for brute force healing? That's definitely not the operative class at all. You brute force you are gonna be energy starved so quick. Put a bubble on the person in question....lol (yes I know Ops don't have bubbles).

The damage reduction, I don't care really. What I would like to see is a our stim pack skill increased. Which would solve most issues with sustained combat.

I meant the opposite - classes with fixed mana pool e.g. Sorcerer rely on dishing out healing/dmg quickly. Normally you would be penalized by going OOM, but as you mentioned it doesn't happen. So there is simply no need not to go all-out on a boss.

Whereas classes with mana regen mechanics e.g. Trooper, Operative, etc. need to be constantly watchful of their energy level, which restrict how much healing/dps they can make. Terrible design decision.

 

[nataku]

Anyone else get their credit card declined? I got an email from Bioware yelling me my sub didn't go through. I know the card is ok though because I just used it at McDonald's a few minutes ago.

EDIT: Seems like I might not be the only one with issues.

 

[demented]

^ didn't work for me either, sent them email and they told me some bullshit story about info etc.

 

[Milly79]

I meant the opposite - classes with fixed mana pool e.g. Sorcerer rely on dishing out healing/dmg quickly. Normally you would be penalized by going OOM, but as you mentioned it doesn't happen. So there is simply no need not to go all-out on a boss.

Whereas classes with mana regen mechanics e.g. Trooper, Operative, etc. need to be constantly watchful of their energy level, which restrict how much healing/dps they can make. Terrible design decision.

Fixed heat does suck for my missile spam merc. Vent heat once then I have to rely on my rapid shots. It does help a bit once you get the skill to get some heat back if you crit with tracer missile. Still sucks during a boss battle.

 

[nataku]

^ didn't work for me either, sent them email and they told me some bullshit story about info etc.

Yeah, I'm seeing more and more threads pop up on the forums about it. I contact my credit card company and things are fine with my account.

Time to yell at Bioware, I guess.

 

[Darklord]

WTF the last dialog of the story is fucking brutal with companion points.

-1096
-595
-267

Edit: And no reward or anything. I just finished the story gimme a nice gun or something! Not even another title.

 

[falastini]

What a compelling argument, I've seen the error of my ways!
Seriously, this was in response to saying you can literally just watch pvp videos and see the sick shit an operative could do, and you just say "nope made up, they suck it's a fact" ?!

I'll take a stab at it. I'm by no means an expert, as my Scoundrel didn't hit 50, but he was high enough to get the 3 second knockdown talent... my observations...

Once you get past their stealth move and backstab, the rest of their moves don't hit that hard. Any decent pvper will make sure they don't allow them selves to get backstabbed again, and the stealth move is a one-shot deal. I tried the spec for a few levels and found it lackluster. I'm by no means a bad player, but the damage output in relation to my survivability seemed awful. I went back to healing spec, where I felt I was more useful. My Merc, at a similar level, was able to pump out more damage while standing safely at range with heavy armor.

Here's a video of a good Concealment PvPing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWNVqslQ7KY
Notice the first minute of the video? No crazy numbers. I think the highest I've see is 4k. Now jump halfway.. he's suddenly smashing ppl for 7-9k, what changed? There's a couple reasons... Firstly, they're all sub 50 with no expertise. Every single person that he crits hard is not 50. Secondly, and most important, he's stacking buffs. (This was fixed in a patch recently. You can't do this anymore.) Just observe his buffs when those large numbers go off. He's stacking both his relics, adrenals, and a pvp stims. From his comments, he was also getting Bloodthirst buff from his friend, which is additional 15%.

If bioware is basing their output based on a bug, then Operatives/Scoundrels are going to be hilariously bad come next patch.

 

[Castor Krieg]

WTF the last dialog of the story is fucking brutal with companion points.

-1096
-595
-267

That's Bioware telling you - "you didn't pick the PROPER dialogue choice we put there".

 

[Darklord]

That's Bioware telling you - "you didn't pick the PROPER dialogue choice we put there".

What annoyed me was it didn't really match up with the dialog wheel. I thought it was like "Yeah, I did it for the hunt, the thrill". Instead it's like "Yeah fuck you, I'd have killed you if I wanted, arsehole and you're lucky I didn't!"

 

[demented]

Yeah, I'm seeing more and more threads pop up on the forums about it. I contact my credit card company and things are fine with my account.

Time to yell at Bioware, I guess.

And funny thing is, that friend whos card I tried works at the bank so I know there was no issue there, all info was right, all good on my end, it's just their shitty website.

Another friend tried adding gamecard but website ate it up, luckily they could help him over the phone, added 5 days while they fix real issue, escalated tickets and all.
They need to fix their website...

 

[gatti-man]

So what? It was an enjoyable game that despite the score went back and forth. Also, I didn't make a fool of myself, which was nice.

I was just kidding.

 

[PaddyOCanager]

Just got some questions if anyone can answer, thanks in advance/sorry if they are stupid:

So i got some pieces of Champion Eliminator armor for my Arsenal specc'd merc. Besides looking absolutely horrid, the stats confuse me. Why no critical rating/surge bonuses? Does any of the bh pvp gear add bonuses to crit/surge? I rely on crits to vent heat but with a full set im going to lose all the crit/surge bonuses i got on my orange pve set....granted ill have more health, more armor, higher accuracy and expertise but against another class w full pvp gear I feel I'll be disadvantaged without crit bonuses. Which is more important for bh, accuracy or crits? Also curious to know if this armor will be viable for pve, or just pvp. I mostly pve which is why I keep the arsenal build, but want to pvp as well so just wondering what armor sets i need to pursue. Been doing the dailies for the mods to my orange armor in preparation for Hard Mode flashpoints, but if the pvp armor is better I just may go that route since it's easy/fun to get.

 

[water_wendi]

I'll take a stab at it. I'm by no means an expert, as my Scoundrel didn't hit 50, but he was high enough to get the 3 second knockdown talent... my observations...

Once you get past their stealth move and backstab, the rest of their moves don't hit that hard. Any decent pvper will make sure they don't allow them selves to get backstabbed again, and the stealth move is a one-shot deal. I tried the spec for a few levels and found it lackluster. I'm by no means a bad player, but the damage output in relation to my survivability seemed awful. I went back to healing spec, where I felt I was more useful. My Merc, at a similar level, was able to pump out more damage while standing safely at range with heavy armor.

Here's a video of a good Concealment PvPing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWNVqslQ7KY
Notice the first minute of the video? No crazy numbers. I think the highest I've see is 4k. Now jump halfway.. he's suddenly smashing ppl for 7-9k, what changed? There's a couple reasons... Firstly, they're all sub 50 with no expertise. Every single person that he crits hard is not 50. Secondly, and most important, he's stacking buffs. (This was fixed in a patch recently. You can't do this anymore.) Just observe his buffs when those large numbers go off. He's stacking both his relics, adrenals, and a pvp stims. From his comments, he was also getting Bloodthirst buff from his friend, which is additional 15%.

If bioware is basing their output based on a bug, then Operatives/Scoundrels are going to be hilariously bad come next patch.

Bioware allowing geared 50s to take on lowbies with no Expertise is the root cause of all of this. Its one of the reasons why i bailed on the class.. the other being ranged dps preferred in PvE. People like TheYanger have a lot of misconceptions about the class. Yanger thinks he cant trinket out of the stun, the stunlock rumors.. then you throw in the problems with Surge/buffs/etc which was just fixed.. and the class didnt really have a chance.

i dont even play the class any more but this move really got me pissed off. Just like Slicing this is noting more than a panic nerf on Biowares part. Just like Slicing this move will render the DPS Operative/Scoundrel completely worthless in both PvE and PvP. Part of me is angry because ive been on the receiving end of two huge nerfs because of rumors spread by the masses. The other part of me is pissed because even fewer people will bother with the class now.

i had a lot of fun with IA but it is the most frustrating class ive ever played in an MMO. The only thing you have as DPS is opening burst.. and you dont even get that until you have sunk 4-5 days /played into the class. IA design is mind-bogglingly retarded. Their sustained damage is horrible, their survivability is very weak, they have zero maneuverability. ive been playing the Jedi Knight class because of how maligned it was and guess what? The difference between the two is night and day. Sentinels are useful in PvP from level 10.. not so for IA.

Anyways.. its done, its over with, i knew this was coming. Its not even my class any longer so i really shouldnt care. Just more easy pickings for me in Warzones.

 

[TheSeks]

What annoyed me was it didn't really match up with the dialog wheel. I thought it was like "Yeah, I did it for the hunt, the thrill". Instead it's like "Yeah fuck you, I'd have killed you if I wanted, arsehole and you're lucky I didn't!"

Welcome to Bioware's dialog wheel. What you think you'll reply with isn't what you reply with. Been there since ME1. Yes, it sucks, but then you learn something: Bioware wants you to play a dick and those answers on the lower side is somewhat consistant with that dickishness.

 

[Zafir]

i had a lot of fun with IA but it is the most frustrating class ive ever played in an MMO. The only thing you have as DPS is opening burst.. and you dont even get that until you have sunk 4-5 days /played into the class. IA design is mind-bogglingly retarded. Their sustained damage is horrible, their survivability is very weak, they have zero maneuverability. ive been playing the Jedi Knight class because of how maligned it was and guess what? The difference between the two is night and day. Sentinels are useful in PvP from level 10.. not so for IA.

Really? My friend who's level 50 main is a marauder is MUCH preferring his operative alt.

 

[water_wendi]

Really? My friend who's level 50 main is a marauder is MUCH preferring his operative alt.

Really. The only good things about Concealment Operative were stealth (which until i got to 50 i swear people could see me a mile away even talented out) and Corrosive Dart.. 15 second DoT that would keep people off objectives. The very first game i did with my Sentinel at level 10 i did more damage and had less deaths than any match that my pre-36 Operative had.

edit: i should note this concerns PvP and not anything with PvE.

 

[meep!]

Anyone else get their credit card declined? I got an email from Bioware yelling me my sub didn't go through. I know the card is ok though because I just used it at McDonald's a few minutes ago.

EDIT: Seems like I might not be the only one with issues.

Same issue here aswell. I tried subbing with both CC and Paypal, neither worked.
I can see they have charged on my bank account though, so this better get sorted out.

 

[Sigfodr]

Really. The only good things about Concealment Operative were stealth (which until i got to 50 i swear people could see me a mile away even talented out) and Corrosive Dart.. 15 second DoT that would keep people off objectives. The very first game i did with my Sentinel at level 10 i did more damage and had less deaths than any match that my pre-36 Operative had.

I feel really dumb because I didn't realize the 15-second DoT could be used like that. Thanks for the pro-tip.

Getting back into my Scoundrel (31) after getting Sorc through prologue and apparently they're nerfed to hell now? That's cool.

 

[water_wendi]

I feel really dumb because I didn't realize the 15-second DoT could be used like that. Thanks for the pro-tip.

Getting back into my Scoundrel (31) after getting Sorc through prologue and apparently they're nerfed to hell now? That's cool.

Yea if you are the last one standing at a Voidstar door just put it on everyone you can before you die and it could buy some precious seconds. If i got into more Voidstar or Civil War matches i would have specced into the Lethality tree to extend it another 3 seconds it was that useful. As Imperial though most of the games are Huttball so it wasnt worth it for me.

 

[Lain]

I swear me changing from DPS to Healing on my Operative is fucking me up.
After the thing with Cloaking Screen, I've run into another problem, this time with Sleeping Dart.
I sleep dart a mob, I go past it, I sleep dart another mob, and the first mob (and all his friends near him) run up to me and smack me.
It's happened 4 times today. The first and second time I didn't understand what happened, because I was walking past mobs and just thought they attacked me because they saw me.
The third time I thought something was wrong with Sleep Dart because I had walked way past the group I used Sleep Dart on and they came to me only a little after I used Sleep Dart on a new mob. The fourth time I saw the sleeping mob wake up and decide he wanted a piece of my ass.
I've tested it now again, the moment sleep dart wears off from a mob (because you casted it on another one or because it just went away), you enter combat mode and the mob comes for you.
The skill never behaved like this before, I could use it from mob to mob without aggroing anything when it wore off.
I don't remember reading in the patch notes that they changed the skill, so I'm gonna guess it got broken?

 

[Ken]

Anyone tried subbing to this game using those gift cards/cards you can add money to that you find at grocery stores?

 

[Castor Krieg]

I swear me changing from DPS to Healing on my Operative is fucking me up.
After the thing with Cloaking Screen, I've run into another problem, this time with Sleeping Dart.
I sleep dart a mob, I go past it, I sleep dart another mob, and the first mob (and all his friends near him) run up to me and smack me.
It's happened 4 times today. The first and second time I didn't understand what happened, because I was walking past mobs and just thought they attacked me because they saw me.
The third time I thought something was wrong with Sleep Dart because I had walked way past the group I used Sleep Dart on and they came to me only a little after I used Sleep Dart on a new mob. The fourth time I saw the sleeping mob wake up and decide he wanted a piece of my ass.
I've tested it now again, the moment sleep dart wears off from a mob (because you casted it on another one or because it just went away), you enter combat mode and the mob comes for you.
The skill never behaved like this before, I could use it from mob to mob without aggroing anything when it wore off.
I don't remember reading in the patch notes that they changed the skill, so I'm gonna guess it got broken?

You are specced into accuracy debuff on Sleep Dart, it causes the mob to aggro. Reset your talents, get rid of that debuff talents, and you're g2g.

 

[Lain]

You are specced into accuracy debuff on Sleep Dart, it causes the mob to aggro. Reset your talents, get rid of that debuff talents, and you're g2g.

Omg why didn't I think of that? THANK YOU!

 

[Sigfodr]

Yea if you are the last one standing at a Voidstar door just put it on everyone you can before you die and it could buy some precious seconds. If i got into more Voidstar or Civil War matches i would have specced into the Lethality tree to extend it another 3 seconds it was that useful. As Imperial though most of the games are Huttball so it wasnt worth it for me.

After getting through my planned tree, I I'll have enough points leftover to throw towards that. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Tess3ract]

Welcome to Bioware's dialog wheel. What you think you'll reply with isn't what you reply with. Been there since ME1. Yes, it sucks, but then you learn something: Bioware wants you to play a dick and those answers on the lower side is somewhat consistant with that dickishness.

Not really. It's all about saying the things your companions want to hear, much like real life!

 

[C.Dark.DN]

What's with the putting alts on your friends list bug?

 

[Arment]

Anyone tried subbing to this game using those gift cards/cards you can add money to that you find at grocery stores?

I donate plasma for cash sometimes and I that's how they give us our payment - on a visa gift card they can put cash on to. I used it to buy and sub the game.

 

[frequency]

You know, the problem with Scoundrel/Operative is that they're too ineffective as damage dealers in PvP out of stealth.

The nerf to the insane burst was needed. No class should be dependent on winning a fight almost purely through a few seconds of burst damage. You may not kill someone in those few seconds, but you have a massive health advantage after it.

Scoundrels/Operatives now need to be rebalanced to be more effective in other areas. The burst/stun nerf is just the first step. You can't leave them like that just because other parts are weaker. Remember this is an MMO. Balancing is a constant thing.

Relying on burst in PvP is bad anyway. As more PvP gear is added, expertise will just get higher and higher and if you were burst-dependant, you'd just get less and less effective. I think about the Rogue in WoW when Resilience was added. They were severely crippled at first, but Blizzard was able to balance them to be great utility classes in PvP with tons of tools.

So don't quit your Scoundrel/Operative or whine that you want the stun/burst back just because of this. If you are truly too weak, you'll get rebalanced and it'll get better.

 

[water_wendi]

Anyone tried subbing to this game using those gift cards/cards you can add money to that you find at grocery stores?

i use Vanilla Visa cards from 7-11 and it works fine. i dont think i even had to register the card (going to the Vanilla website and adding in a ZIP code).

You know, the problem with Scoundrel/Operative is that they're too ineffective as damage dealers in PvP out of stealth.

The nerf to the insane burst was needed. No class should be dependent on winning a fight almost purely through a few seconds of burst damage. You may not kill someone in those few seconds, but you have a massive health advantage after it.

Scoundrels/Operatives now need to be rebalanced to be more effective in other areas. The burst/stun nerf is just the first step. You can't leave them like that just because other parts are weaker. Remember this is an MMO. Balancing is a constant thing.

Relying on burst in PvP is bad anyway. As more PvP gear is added, expertise will just get higher and higher and if you were burst-dependant, you'd just get less and less effective. I think about the Rogue in WoW when Resilience was added. They were severely crippled at first, but Blizzard was able to balance them to be great utility classes in PvP with tons of tools.

So don't quit your Scoundrel/Operative or whine that you want the stun/burst back just because of this. If you are truly too weak, you'll get rebalanced and it'll get better.

Thats how the class plays. There is no sustained DPS because there is burst DPS. i dont expect balancing to occur with the class. You have a player like TheYanger, a very dedicated and knowledgeable MMO player, who even they think the stun cant be trinketed out of. If someone with that kind of pedigree is misled on the class, what hope is there to bring reason and the truth of the matter to the frothing mass of dolts out there?

This whole affair reminds me of when that video of that Warlord Warrior with every buff under the sun was destroying absolutely everything from 2005 or so. Fortunately in that case the root cause was nerfed and not the class.

 

[cpp_is_king]

This debate is fucking annoying. After 15 years of MMOs, haven't people learned yet that imbalances continuously shift from one class to another? It's the law of the fucking land, it's the way it works. Saying you're dropping a class because it's "done with, over, and finished" is stupider than hell. And since everyone keeps insisting on using the word "fact" in this thread, I'll throw mine in too. THAT is the fact.

 

[water_wendi]

This debate is fucking annoying. After 15 years of MMOs, haven't people learned yet that imbalances continuously shift from one class to another? It's the law of the fucking land, it's the way it works. Saying you're dropping a class because it's "done with, over, and finished" is stupider than hell. And since everyone keeps insisting on using the word "fact" in this thread, I'll throw mine in too. THAT is the fact.

When these changes hit DPS Operatives will have nothing. If thats not a fact point out what Operatives bring to PvP or PvE with these changes. im eager to hear this expert analysis.

 

[cpp_is_king]

When these changes hit DPS Operatives will have nothing. If thats not a fact point out what Operatives bring to PvP or PvE with these changes. im eager to hear this expert analysis.

My expert analysis is to chill the fuck out so we can go back to talking about the actual game, because shit like this happens in every game that's ever been released, and then later on you get buffs in other areas to balance it out, or other classes get other nerfs to balance it out.

Christ, it's not even on the live servers yet. You're acting like they may as well delete the class from the game now because it's unsalvageable for eternity.

Furthermore, if you're going to bitch, why don't you bitch on the official forums where people who have the power to make changes can actually see it? I mean the same shit has been going back and forth in this thread for 5-10 pages now and it's getting stupid. Either get over it or voice your concerns where they have the power to make a difference.

 

[water_wendi]

My expert analysis is to chill the fuck out so we can go back to talking about the actual game, because shit like this happens in every game that's ever been released, and then later on you get buffs in other areas to balance it out, or other classes get other nerfs to balance it out.

Christ, it's not even on the live servers yet. You're acting like they may as well delete the class from the game now because it's unsalvageable for eternity.

The reason this is huge is because that is all they can do. Operatives can do nothing else besides go into the healing tree. i dont think you understand that this absolutely destroys PvP and PvE viability.. what little of each there were to begin with. ive been playing MMOs since UO and i have never seen such a huge across the board nerf to a class that did not need it.

 

[cpp_is_king]

The reason this is huge is because that is all they can do. Operatives can do nothing else besides go into the healing tree. i dont think you understand that this absolutely destroys PvP and PvE viability.. what little of each there were to begin with. ive been playing MMOs since UO and i have never seen such a huge across the board nerf to a class that did not need it.

I'm not even saying I disagree with you. I'm saying that rehashing the same arguments for 10 pages in a thread that will have no effect on whether this change makes it into the game is wasting yours and everyone else in this thread's time. We get it. You dont' like the change. If you're going to continue ranting about the change, I suggest you do it in a place that is more constructive and so that people who really don't care about this change don't have to still be reading about it a week from now every time they open this thread.

 

[water_wendi]

I'm not even saying I disagree with you. I'm saying that rehashing the same arguments for 10 pages in a thread that will have no effect on whether this change makes it into the game is wasting yours and everyone else in this thread's time. We get it. You dont' like the change. If you're going to continue ranting about the change, I suggest you do it in a place that is more constructive and so that people who really don't care about this change don't have to still be reading about it a week from now every time they open this thread.

It hasnt even been 24 fucking hours since the news came out.

 

[TheYanger]

Trooper = Bounty Hunter, I'm not sure what the Trooper equivalent is to Mercenary but you get attacking/damaging skills that purge heat. Operatives get a Stim talent but it's kinda high in the Concealment tree, and if you go all healer I'm not sure if you can reach it (never rolled healer so I can't tell).

I mean honestly I have near infinite force energy on my Sorcerer, I can literally spam force lightning forever because I'll regen what I spent on the skill before the skill is over, then lighting strike gives me an 100% chance to increase regen by 10% and stacks 3 times?

lol operatives and bounty hunters. You know it's messed up when the "mana" class has near infinite amount and the "energy" class drains quick and takes forever to recoup.

Sorcerer for life!



I'm not a healer (OMG I know a operative who rolled one of the other two trees, crazy!), I'm concealment, and I've played WoW from beta to Cata and have done every raid the game has had until Cata when I quit. I know how it works.

If you're a DPS sorcerer and you go OOM quick and you weren't offhealing to help someone, you're doing something wrong. If you're low on force, you can literally spam force lightning for next to no cost and weave in lighting strike to get your mana back up pretty quick.

Concealment have no true energy free attack other than...shoot. Which does like no real damage, and why would it? As an operative you're not a ranged class.

Though I am unsure as to how you came to equate "janky" with "hard" the system is easy, this entire game is easy. But operative energy was poorly thought out in regards to long fights, even weaving in a talented stim boost one after another you'll still go out of energy as concealment. And if you can't sustain your DPS, there is no reason to take you to a raid as DPS simple as that.

As for brute force healing? That's definitely not the operative class at all. You brute force you are gonna be energy starved so quick. Put a bubble on the person in question....lol (yes I know Ops don't have bubbles).

The damage reduction, I don't care really. What I would like to see is a our stim pack skill increased. Which would solve most issues with sustained combat.

You're horribly mistaken if you think BH/Troopers have some magic infinite resource mechanics. BH/Trooper/Smuggler/IA all share the exact same resource system. Different names/graphics but they function completely the same. You can claim you can't run yourself dry on the other classes all you want but anyone that plays them knows that's completely untrue, all 4 classes require extensive resource management to stay in 'four bar' regen. The only ATTACKS that actually regen heat/ammo are the shield spec 31 point talents, and they're garbage as fuck besides that aspect (Obviously they're worth using, but if hitting an attack that does the same damage as my default attack but gives me an ammo back once every 10 GCDs sounds like excitement to you...well idk what to say).

The reason this is huge is because that is all they can do. Operatives can do nothing else besides go into the healing tree. i dont think you understand that this absolutely destroys PvP and PvE viability.. what little of each there were to begin with. ive been playing MMOs since UO and i have never seen such a huge across the board nerf to a class that did not need it.

This isn't huge. He hit the nail on the head: This is an MMO, your class was overpowered at an aspect of the game, and it got nerfed. This is what happens in these games. You were literally calling your class underpowered BEFORE it got nerfed, which makes you the worst kind of class whiner out there. I don't think ops/scoundrels were nearly as bullshit as sorcs/sages of any spec, but they were pretty effin stupid all the same. Once the nerfbat swings the way of those lightning throwing dickkickers I think we'll be at a pretty solid state of balance until we get some combat logging to more fine-tune things.



As a more general aside, the rest of my buddies finally hit 50 and we started doing HM flashpoints...where are all these insane enrage timers I'd always heard about? We've had a handful of bosses enrage AS they died, but that's indicative of GOOD tuning not bad. We've never actually wiped to one, so I was a bit confused.

 

[water_wendi]

This isn't huge.

Yes it is. Anything that makes an entire aspect of a class non-viable is a pretty huge nerf.

 

[Ken]

The only ATTACKS that actually regen heat/ammo are the shield spec 31 point talents, and they're garbage as fuck besides that aspect (Obviously they're worth using, but if hitting an attack that does the same damage as my default attack but gives me an ammo back once every 10 GCDs sounds like excitement to you...well idk what to say).

Vanguard's Assault spec has a talent that gives you +1 ammo every time you hit an enemy on fire with High Impact Bolt, so there's that I guess.

 

[Castor Krieg]

You're horribly mistaken if you think BH/Troopers have some magic infinite resource mechanics. BH/Trooper/Smuggler/IA all share the exact same resource system. Different names/graphics but they function completely the same. You can claim you can't run yourself dry on the other classes all you want but anyone that plays them knows that's completely untrue, all 4 classes require extensive resource management to stay in 'four bar' regen. The only ATTACKS that actually regen heat/ammo are the shield spec 31 point talents, and they're garbage as fuck besides that aspect (Obviously they're worth using, but if hitting an attack that does the same damage as my default attack but gives me an ammo back once every 10 GCDs sounds like excitement to you...well idk what to say).

Read for once instead of posting wall of text. He meant the opposite - "mana pool" classes have practically unlimited resource; regen, cost of spells, and fight duration makes it impossible for them to run OOM. "Energy management" classes need to restrict themselves heavily while playing.

I have a Sorcerer at lvl 30, Trooper at 36, and IA at 33. I can DPS/Heal the shit out of my Sorcerer, on IA I need to constantly refresh Kolto Probes on two targets to get TA running for heals. The difference in attention it requires is staggering.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Yes it is. Anything that makes an entire aspect of a class non-viable is a pretty huge nerf.

Even with the nerf, the damage output is still pretty good.

 

[TheYanger]

Read for once instead of posting wall of text. He meant the opposite - "mana pool" classes have practically unlimited resource; regen, cost of spells, and fight duration makes it impossible for them to run OOM. "Energy management" classes need to restrict themselves heavily while playing.

I have a Sorcerer at lvl 30, Trooper at 36, and IA at 33. I can DPS/Heal the shit out of my Sorcerer, on IA I need to constantly refresh Kolto Probes on two targets to get TA running for heals. The difference in attention it requires is staggering.

Re-read what he said He said that only smugglers/operatives are bound by energy, and troopers/bh have basically unlimited, which is false.
I agree that it's a big difference from sages/sorcs

Vanguard's Assault spec has a talent that gives you +1 ammo every time you hit an enemy on fire with High Impact Bolt, so there's that I guess.

Almost every spec of all energy/ammo/heat classes have something like that. A quick glance (ignoring the healer trees which are quite different), shows that the middle tree for ops doesn't, but the other dps trees as a smuggler/IA do.