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[zoukka]

Bio requires more upgrades than gateway units. Banshees require a 200/200 upgrade to become DT's.

Terran units aren't as cost efficient as Toss units.

Also you seemed to not get the memo about we only whining about toss now.

 

[SteveWinwood]

Fuck my life. Yes, increase their build time AND don't let us get our minerals back. Now let's see how many people will be wanting to use bunkers as an offensive tool. Hey Blizzard, here's the answer - NO ONE.

You get 75 minerals back out of 100 and you're already complaining that it will kill any offensive bunker pushes? What the hell are you smoking?

 

[Corran Horn]

You get 75 minerals back out of 100 and you're already complaining that it will kill any offensive bunker pushes? What the hell are you smoking?

Its yoshi

 

[Striek]

Bio requires more upgrades than gateway units. Banshees require a 200/200 upgrade to become DT's.

Terran units aren't as cost efficient as Toss units.

Woah you're going to have to explain these. Bio upgrades are 250/250. Gateway units have 450/450 worth of upgrades. HTs require a 200/200 upgrade (and a 150/200 structure first and 50/250 for DTs) but I never bothered counting it.

And terran have the most cost-efficient units in the game. How is that even arguable. I don't think I've ever seen a protoss or zerg beat an MMM army with less invested unless the terran walks into a baneling mine or something. Whereas you see terrans wipe the floor with a much cheaper MMM or marine/tank army all the time.


I know that complaining about toss is the FOTM, but really now.

Edit: Maybe my sarcasm meter is off?

 

[twofold]

That's the joke.


I like the changes. Warpgate nerf was needed. Now we might actually see some 2-3 pre-warpgate action instead of the ever popular 4gate or 3gate expand.

Archons are awesome. They deserve all the buffs in the world.

And I can't even remember the last time I saw a banshee when I played zerg... now they'll disappear completely from diamond level I guess lol.

Really? I see them all the time. The spore crawler change will make them worthless, though. Now if only they'd do something to blue flame hellions..

It wasn't nerfed a great deal anyway, 15s for the fourth zealot using crono iirc. people overstated how much it was nerfed as a build imo and roach range buff has happened since then making kiting zealots even easier and it's fairly standard to get roaches early against P (roach rushes are fairly common at lower leagues too).

What? Nobody gets Roaches quick enough to deal with 2 gate chrono'd Zealots.

About what I expected. I think the changes will make early game PvT very nice (holding conc-rushes etc.), but make PvZ waaay harder because zergs will be able to drone far more heavily. I can't remember the last time a 4wg just outright slaughtered a decent zerg player, usually its just enough to kill a greedy zerg. Idra will now be lol'ing with the advantage he can get in the matchup.

I've seen tons of 4 warp gates and 5 warp gates recently. The Zealot/Stalker ones aren't a problem; the heavy sentry ones are crazy strong, though.

 

[zoukka]

Bio doesn't beat anything without stim. Marauders are a joke without shells. Gateway army can roflstomp without legs or blink.

And terran have the most cost-efficient units in the game. How is that even arguable. I don't think I've ever seen a protoss or zerg beat an MMM army with less invested unless the terran walks into a baneling mine or something.

lol? Nothing a bioball can do to some sweet FF action. The true strength of bio is its mobility with the medvacs.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Its like fact man.

Big part of it, but not just.

Marine/marauder, obviously ridiculously gas cheap, especially compared to zealot/stalker/sentry and ling/bling/roach/hydra.
Vikings - for no apparent reason 25 gas cheaper than corruptors and phoenixes. Can anyone explain why?
Ghosts - Now 50 gas cheaper than infestors or high templar.


Basically tanks are the only heavily used gas expensive terran unit, but its more than made up that they're often paired with pure marine so you still don't need very much gas overall. Even if terran has an all-mech army its super rare for them to have more gas spent than a same-sized protoss army. Terrans usually get their third and fourth gas reallly late and its so common to see them with a huge stockpile while protoss and zergs are limited by it.

Bonus, Banshees - Flying DTs that only cost 100 gas (less than a DT). You so crazy Terran.

mm gets fucked by all the compositions you related it too

banshees take a 200/200 research to cloack

vikings lose in a 1v1 fight with either corruptors or phoenix. pheonix can also shoot while moving.

ravens are 100 200, cattle briusiers are 400 300, thors are 300 200, tanks are 150 125, reapers are 50 50, medivacs are 100 100 all of these units need gas heavy upgrades. terran bio also needs gas heavy upgrades.

 

[Corran Horn]

Listening to day9 give 4v4 strats is funny

 

[slidewinder]

Destiny CatZ and Drewbie are doing 3v3 placements on stream :O

Edit: And Day9 is on Skype with them now :O

This is pretty entertaining. Day9's giving them build orders in his capacity as High Priest of SC2 advice. Destiny's stream.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Woah you're going to have to explain these. Bio upgrades are 250/250. Gateway units have 450/450 worth of upgrades. HTs require a 200/200 upgrade (and a 150/200 structure first and 50/250 for DTs) but I never bothered counting it.

And terran have the most cost-efficient units in the game. How is that even arguable. I don't think I've ever seen a protoss or zerg beat an MMM army with less invested unless the terran walks into a baneling mine or something. Whereas you see terrans wipe the floor with a much cheaper MMM or marine/tank army all the time.


I know that complaining about toss is the FOTM, but really now.

Edit: Maybe my sarcasm meter is off?

what are they? are you counting sentry upgrades in that? should i count ghost upgrades? because that's bio too. cloak is 150 150 i think, and energy is 100 100? so thats 500/500 for bio? id throw in nitropacks but i guess thats kinda rare. then theres the fact that terran bio have their own weapon upgrades seperate from mech and air, so that's another like 500/500?

bottom line is that everyone knows late game terran is insanely gas heavy. you hear it in every cast

 

[Corran Horn]

This is pretty entertaining. Day9's giving them build orders in his capacity as High Priest of SC2 advice. Destiny's stream.

Randomly Day9 starts vacuuming and thats all you hear lol

 

[Zzoram]

late game Terran is gas heavy because of Medivacs and Vikings. They eat gas big time and you never seem to have enough of them.

 

[V_Arnold]

Fuck my life. Yes, increase their build time AND don't let us get our minerals back. Now let's see how many people will be wanting to use bunkers as an offensive tool. Hey Blizzard, here's the answer - NO ONE.

Yoshi, Yoshi... smh.
What the hell do you think, why should terrans and only terrans get a FREE OFFENSIVE TOOL?
Why?
Can zergs go in the terran natural and plant spine crawlers? Can they? Can Protoss recover the placed pylons? You would not have a single reason to cry even if salvage was not an option. This is because bunker is a VERY powerful tool, well worth its full price even with one or two marines in it. For 200~ mineral, you easily destroy that amount of zerglings/drones/queen/overlord with a well placed bunker, and bam, the tool did its job just fine. So what is your problem again?

 

[Striek]

I didn't realise that simply stating facts would be so contentious...

lol? Nothing a bioball can do to some sweet FF action. The true strength of bio is its mobility with the medvacs.

The true strength of bio is the fact that marines, marauders and medivacs are cheaper and stronger than equivalent units. Mobility is a perk. Its vulnerability is its relatively low health which makes it more susceptible to AoE damage.

FFs are great until terran gets stim and medivacs which is when you need to start packing on heavy colossus counts and/or HTs. And even then a lot of terrans just adds support units to its core MMM army (vikings and/or ghosts, respectively).

In TvZ I presume no one will argue terran isn't more cost-effective? Now in TvP there is typically only one major engagement. Terran doesn't trade armies into protoss like zerg does. The only way to argue protoss was more cost-effective would be to argue that terran usually has a more expensive army in equal supply fights, which is blatantly false given that MMM/Viking is still the standard for the matchup.

mm gets fucked by all the compositions you related it too

What. No? Bio handily beats gateway units and zerg tier 1/2. Handily.

banshees take a 200/200 research to cloack

Cool. DTs take a 50/250 building.

vikings lose in a 1v1 fight with either corruptors or phoenix.

Vikings in higher numbers beat both, in a 1v1 fight they are equal to corruptors (last shot both die) and phoenix will survive with one hit left. Again why does terran require less gas in their main AtA unit?

pheonix can also shoot while moving.

Vikings have 9 range, whats your point...

ravens are 100 200, cattle briusiers are 400 300, thors are 300 200, tanks are 150 125, reapers are 50 50, medivacs are 100 100 all of these units need gas heavy upgrades. terran bio also needs gas heavy upgrades.

Lol and in what game are terrans getting more than a single raven, BCs in a non-mirror, thors are the same gas cost as a colossus, tanks I specifically mentioned as the one terran unit thats gas heavy, reapers aren't used, medivacs I overlooked but they're not so much gas heavy as mineral light (in terms of support units) - also medivacs comprise the only substantial MMM gas usage, which still isn't much, and terran bios upgrades are less gas heavy as previously gone over.

what are they? are you counting sentry upgrades in that? should i count ghost upgrades? because that's bio too. cloak is 150 150 i think, and energy is 100 100? so thats 500/500 for bio? id throw in nitropacks but i guess thats kinda rare. then theres the fact that terran bio have their own weapon upgrades seperate from mech and air, so that's another like 500/500?

bottom line is that everyone knows late game terran is insanely gas heavy. you hear it in every cast

Charge, Blink and Hallucinate. Even not counting Hallucinate its still more expensive for protoss. And if you count the other upgrades then you count storm etc.

Every race its mentioned that they heavily rely on gas, but that doesn't mean they're all equal.

This argument is kind of stupid though, since you can argue what theoretically could happen vs. what actually does happen, which is terrans using less gas.

 

[Ashhong]

I have been on a crazy winning streak using the 6rax at 16 supply build in 4v4 with my friends. Must get masters!

 

[zoukka]

I have been on a crazy winning streak using the 6rax at 16 supply build in 4v4 with my friends. Must get masters!

Your rank is worth nothing peasant!

The true strength of bio is the fact that marines, marauders and medivacs are cheaper and stronger than equivalent units. Mobility is a perk.

Factually false. Without good kiting micro, the bioball falls to any composition of Toss/Zerg a-moving towards you. So the mobility with stim and vacs is the greatest asset of bioballs. The ability to flee, spread and to counter push quickly makes the ball so deadly.

Now in TvP there is typically only one major engagement. Terran doesn't trade armies into protoss like zerg does. The only way to argue protoss was more cost-effective would be to argue that terran usually has a more expensive army in equal supply fights, which is blatantly false given that MMM/Viking is still the standard for the matchup.

It's common for toss to engage until their mineral sinklots die and then flee with whatever stalkers/sentries they can pack with. Sentries stay cost-effective from early to late game.

Again why does terran require less gas in their main AtA unit?

Because otherwise they would get fucked with colossi, muta and phoenix. Not saying they aren't already.

also medivacs comprise the only substantial MMM gas usage, which still isn't much, and terran bios upgrades are less gas heavy as previously gone over.

Late game Terran needs to be pumping vacs AND vikings all the time if they want to go toe to toe with the toss deathball. Throw in ghosts and you bet your ass Terran is gas-starved just as much as the other races.

 

[Trickster]

Factually false. Without good kiting micro, the bioball falls to any composition of Toss/Zerg a-moving towards you. So the mobility with stim and vacs is the greatest asset of bioballs. The ability to flee, spread and to counter push quickly makes the ball so deadly.

That's a joke right? First of all, stim kiting is fucking easy to do, you stim, click, h, click, h, click, h, click, h, etc etc. Secondly, protoss needs very good forcefields that cut the bioball just right in order to not lose the fight, and don't even think about fighting the bioball in big open areas unless your collosus count is big enough that it won't get killed by viking too quickly.

I can't comment on zerg though. But a protoss a-moving towards a terran bioball and winning, that's a good one, i chuckled.

 

[syllogism]

Heh, idra now charges $300/h for coaching due to all the tournaments limiting his time

e: old

 

[Q8D3vil]

That's a joke right? First of all, stim kiting is fucking easy to do, you stim, click, h, click, h, click, h, click, h, etc etc. Secondly, protoss needs very good forcefields that cut the bioball just right in order to not lose the fight, and don't even think about fighting the bioball in big open areas unless your collosus count is big enough that it won't get killed by viking too quickly.

I can't comment on zerg though. But a protoss a-moving towards a terran bioball and winning, that's a good one, i chuckled.

so u can kite protoss army and macro in the same time ?
kiting is not easy at all if you want to macro in the same time especially against coloss army while the viking attack the coloss.

Heh, idra now charges $300/h for coaching due to all the tournaments limiting his time

$300 for an hour full of bitching about balance.
i don't get why anyone want to learn anything from idra right now, sheth is better person and seems to have figured out things better.

 

[zoukka]

But a protoss a-moving towards a terran bioball and winning, that's a good one, i chuckled.

Chuckle all you want. I was speaking completely in theory. Take army A and army B. Attack move both into each other and see what happens (aka judge the basic "strength" of the units). Then see how zealots work.

And yes basic kiting is easy. So are forcefields if you have practiced at all and have enough sentries.

Now as zerg... you need much more

 

[Ikuu]

While Sheth may be a better coach and is certainly cheaper, IdrA is the better player.

 

[Striek]

Factually false. Without good kiting micro, the bioball falls to any composition of Toss/Zerg a-moving towards you. So the mobility with stim and vacs is the greatest asset of bioballs. The ability to flee, spread and to counter push quickly makes the ball so deadly.

Factually, hilariously false outside of banelings, a stimmed MMM ball will tear through any tier 1/2 army a-moving towards it. Like as in it will be disgustingly not close.

It's common for toss to engage until their mineral sinklots die and then flee with whatever stalkers/sentries they can pack with. Sentries stay cost-effective from early to late game.

This isn't common at all inasmuch as when one player is losing a battle they will try and flee, which in TvP doesn't really work out unless losses were even on both sides.

Because otherwise they would get fucked with colossi, muta and phoenix. Not saying they aren't already.

Thats a poor reason. Also you failed to justify that statement.

Late game Terran needs to be pumping vacs AND vikings all the time if they want to go toe to toe with the toss deathball. Throw in ghosts and you bet your ass Terran is gas-starved just as much as the other races.

You might think but like...ehhh. Constantly pumping out vikings is a little more gas intensive than constantly building one colossus, and a bit less if you're chrono'ing that colossus.

We can argue this but the fact is protoss spends most of the game with a low gas count even though they are by far the quickest race to get their first four gas geysers usually. Zerg only takes one gas before going Lair normally but afterwards is gas-starved and mineral heavy. Protoss and zerg simply have units that if they have the gas and the tech up they WILL 100% of the time be able to spend gas on and want to (HTs/sentries/banelings/infestors) while having higher gas counts for base units (stalkers/hydras and corruptors/phoenixes) while actually getting those gas-heavy tier 3 units consistently if they can because they're kind of important for protoss/zerg to deal with tier 1/2 terran.

Not arguing anymore, believe what you want in spite of the evidence.

 

[syllogism]

Sheth keeps getting eliminated relatively early in every tournament he attends, so I'm not quite sure what you base that claim on. What works on ladder against high masters players may not actually be safe. Not to suggest that makes him the worse coach. Besides, it's quite obvious people aren't paying $150 or $300 for just coaching

 

[Trickster]

so u can kite protoss army and macro in the same time ?
kiting is not easy at all if you want to macro in the same time especially against coloss army while the viking attack the coloss.

If you're trying to macro while doing stutterstep micro then you're doing it wrong. If however you're talking about doing it like this: stutterstep micro -> click bioball decent distance away -> macro while army is running to location -> back to army after done macroing. Then yes, that ain't too hard.

 

[zoukka]

Factually, hilariously false outside of banelings, a stimmed MMM ball will tear through any tier 1/2 army a-moving towards it. Like as in it will be disgustingly not close.

Ima try this once I get home to get some actual data out of this so we can see if we have any points whatsoever. I just think the zealots are the key factor in bioball not moving (you know the point of FF).

unless losses were even on both sides.

Well obviously this is the hypothetical situation. In which the sentries and stalkers are more valuable and cost-efficient when the toss can just sink minerals into zealots and tech.

Thats a poor reason. Also you failed to justify that statement.

Justify? The game is balanced with these current costs in mind. Up the cost of vikings, and you'd see what I meant. And I can guarantee that most mid/high level bioballs lose to tossballs because they didn't have enough vikings/ghosts if the micro is equal among the players.

We can argue this but the fact is protoss spends most of the game with a low gas count even though they are by far the quickest race to get their first four gas geysers usually. Zerg only takes one gas before going Lair normally but afterwards is gas-starved and mineral heavy. Protoss and zerg simply have units that if they have the gas and the tech up they WILL 100% of the time be able to spend gas on and want to (HTs/sentries/banelings/infestors) while having higher gas counts for base units (stalkers/hydras and corruptors/phoenixes) while actually getting those gas-heavy tier 3 units consistently if they can because they're kind of important for protoss/zerg to deal with tier 1/2 terran.

Everyone can see that the races use gas in different curves. Everyone can also see that the same applies to minerals. Zerg can be quite gas light in some builds. Toss really needs them sentries that's for sure and I'd like to see more options for toss to go into the midgame without them.

 

[mescalineeyes]

Some really misguided opinions in this discussion. some people should really play more before theorycrafting.


That being said, as a Zerg player, I welcome all of these nerfs

 

[Trickster]

Some really misguided opinions in this discussion. some people should really play more before theorycrafting.


That being said, as a Zerg player, I welcome all of these nerfs

What's your oppinion about the spine crawler root time buff? Seems to me like it will make zerg much harder to break early game.

 

[zoukka]

What's your oppinion about the spine crawler root time buff? Seems to me like it will make zerg much harder to break early game.

They changed the spore root, not spine.

 

[Ikuu]

They should have changed the Spine Crawler time also, I'd rather they do something to help with scouting to be honest.

 

[Trickster]

They changed the spore root, not spine.

oh, didn't even notice, that just seems pointless.

 

[mcrae]

What's your oppinion about the spine crawler root time buff? Seems to me like it will make zerg much harder to break early game.

personally, my opinion is that it is a spore crawler root time buff, though i can see not everyone agrees with me

 

[syllogism]

Reducing spine crawler root time similarly would make them too strong, I believe, as especially spanishiwa style late gas openings would be extremely safe. Perhaps something like 8-9 seconds could be workable.

e: root time; reducing build time would be fine

 

[cdyhybrid]

oh, didn't even notice, that just seems pointless.

It'll help vs. Banshees and VRs. The crawler won't die to one unit before it can burrow now.

 

[Striek]

Ima try this once I get home to get some actual data out of this so we can see if we have any points whatsoever. I just think the zealots are the key factor in bioball not moving (you know the point of FF).

Please do - its basically because marine DPS specifically is meant to be countered by AoE units/spells, that once you reach a sufficient ball (~30) even pure chargelots wont beat pure stimmed unmicroed marines even without medivacs. But I mean you're not meant to counter MMM by 1a'ing with tier 1/2 units ;-)

Some really misguided opinions in this discussion. some people should really play more before theorycrafting.

Please feel free to contribute and/or correct if you think you have any insights. I don't think theres anything wrong with theorycrafting but hell if we limit by activity why not ladder rank? Unless we've gotten a member into grandmasters I can't be worse than equal first in that regard (edit: second, someone has laddered past me in my division :O - twice as much games played by him ).
Of course I'm biased because I play protoss and occasionally zerg, but I'm confident what I say is essentially correct.

 

[twofold]

oh, didn't even notice, that just seems pointless.

It's not. It'll help a ton against banshees and void rays in the early game.

Reducing spine crawler root time similarly would make them too strong, I believe, as especially spanishiwa style late gas openings would be extremely safe. Perhaps something like 8-9 seconds could be workable.

e: root time; reducing build time would be fine

Agreed.

If they reduced the build time by 5 seconds and reduced root time to 9-ish seconds, spines would be awesome.

 

[mcrae]

i know husky gets a lot of hate, never really knew why... am watching http://sc2casts.com/cast3520-Spanishiwa-vs-CrunCher-1-Game-Starcraft-Ladder-Battle.net-VOD this cast atm, he just said (after lings kill a pylon just before thermal lance was abotu to finish) "now that is frusterating for the protoss player but thermal lance is one of those upgrades where once you get it you have it for the entire game so you don't need to get it right away i mean as long as you can hold on without it then you should be just fine"

"one of those upgrades where once you get it you have it for the entire game"

"as long as you can hold on without it then you should be just fine"


WHAT. A. FUCKING. IDIOT.

 

[mescalineeyes]

What's your oppinion about the spine crawler root time buff? Seems to me like it will make zerg much harder to break early game.

I wish.

 

[Yoshichan]

Yoshi, Yoshi... smh.
What the hell do you think, why should terrans and only terrans get a FREE OFFENSIVE TOOL?

That's the fine thing about Starcraft. A game with three completely different races. It won't be used as an offensive tool anymore.

 

[-COOLIO-]

i know husky gets a lot of hate, never really knew why... am watching http://sc2casts.com/cast3520-Spanishiwa-vs-CrunCher-1-Game-Starcraft-Ladder-Battle.net-VOD this cast atm, he just said (after lings kill a pylon just before thermal lance was abotu to finish) "now that is frusterating for the protoss player but thermal lance is one of those upgrades where once you get it you have it for the entire game so you don't need to get it right away i mean as long as you can hold on without it then you should be just fine"

"one of those upgrades where once you get it you have it for the entire game"

"as long as you can hold on without it then you should be just fine"


WHAT. A. FUCKING. IDIOT.

after hours and hours of casting, youll say something stupid when youre trying to fill in the silence.

i think he meant something like the player isnt necessarily too vulnerable defensively without it. he just has to wait longer to push

 

[mescalineeyes]

It won't be used as an offensive tool anymore.

that is simply bullshit.

 

[twofold]

that is simply bullshit.

No it's not. What are Terrans going to do now that they're out 25 minerals? That's like.. Half a marine. It's gamebreaking. Blizzard will definitely reverse this ridiculous change once they see that how worthless bunkers are on the PTR. You'll see.

 

[Trickster]

That's the fine thing about Starcraft. A game with three completely different races. It won't be used as an offensive tool anymore.

holy shit if you're not trolling. Please explain to me how salvage giving a full refund is fair or balanced.

 

[Yoshichan]

holy shit if you're not trolling. Please explain to me how salvage giving a full refund is fair or balanced.

Why can cannons also shoot up and be detector?
Why does spinecrawlers have 50 armor, 4000 health and can root up and down?

 

[Trickster]

Why can cannons also shoot up and be detector?
Why does spinecrawlers have 50 armor, 4000 health and can root up and down?

Troll confirmed, was all I needed to know, thanks.

 

[Pandaman]

inca... what.

 

[Yoshichan]

inca... what.

Wrong thread

 

[mescalineeyes]

No it's not. What are Terrans going to do now that they're out 25 minerals? That's like.. Half a marine. It's gamebreaking. Blizzard will definitely reverse this ridiculous change once they see that how worthless bunkers are on the PTR. You'll see.

I know you are being sarcastic, but I guess I should make a point here since I have inadvertently taken part in this discussion:

A bunker forces at least 1 if not 2 spine crawlers.

Guess which race will never see that money again.

 

[Deadman]

Archons being massive means concussive shell doesnt affect them anymore.

Seriously terrans, figure out mech vs protoss.

 

[Yoshichan]

Seriously terrans, figure out mech vs protoss.

I did try it out a couple of times. I realized no blue flame hellion, siege tank, thor and viking in the world can kill a 200/200 (with reinforcement another +50 supply) toss death ball.

 

[Pandaman]

I did try it out a couple of times. I realized no blue flame hellion, siege tank, thor and viking in the world can kill a 200/200 (with reinforcement another +50 supply) toss death ball.

try making alot of em.