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//: StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty |OT2| GL HF GG
- Thread starter Corran Horn
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pieatorium
Member
lol Idra and Machine on sotg were saying this is a zerg buff as it will be harder to fuck up and send your infestors into the front lines.Yoshichan said:
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Fuck that, I hate it how infestors are used against me. I'm doing stuff at my base, my army's standing near the gold protecting it, then all of a sudden 5 infestors show up and I don't even have time to react and move before they fungal me.pieatorium said:
Bleh.
edit: and I love marines, so :lol
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
It's all about the surprise fungals. Infestors are supposed to be a spellcaster that should be in the back of an army. They're being used in the front (at the start) so that they can fungal, then retreat. This will hopefully change the way they're being used.Pandaman said:
mescalineeyes
Banned
Deadman said:
day9 has lost all my respect.
I still think he's entertaining and a fun/great guy but it was clear that he had no idea about what he was talking about.
mescalineeyes said:
He knows a lot about the game, that's for sure, enough to be a great caster. But Idra's knowledge is on a whole different level. I think day9 tried to say that idra's view on the issue was biased, but didn't do a good job.
Still it was a fun argument to watch, and I kinda agree with the zerg scouting issue. But then, if Idra wants to buff the defensive reaction of zerg, namely buff spine crawlers, then you have to balance out because zerg is the best at expanding too.
TheThunder
Member
One of the best STOG for sure, finally Tasteless drops in.
but man If you ever saw an MMA match, Tyler's situation in that argument was like being in a no escape headlock. Unless Zeus himself comes down from the heavens and split the other guy in half there is only three ways its gonna end: 1-you tap out 2-you pass out 3-you get chocked to death if the referee is doing a shitty job, and that was what Tyler put himself into with his weak argument and kept digging himself deeper and deeper until he submitted.
but man If you ever saw an MMA match, Tyler's situation in that argument was like being in a no escape headlock. Unless Zeus himself comes down from the heavens and split the other guy in half there is only three ways its gonna end: 1-you tap out 2-you pass out 3-you get chocked to death if the referee is doing a shitty job, and that was what Tyler put himself into with his weak argument and kept digging himself deeper and deeper until he submitted.
pieatorium
Member
The only thing more pathetic than watching a queen drag its ass off creep is watching an overlord get run down and sniped by a queen off creep. Increase their base speed to be faster than an off creep queen please!
Day9 doesn't know as much about the game as people think he does, IdrA completely destroyed him in the argument and all Day9 could do was trying to squirm out of it. Whenever balance comes up Day9 just laughs or talks complete nonsense, they should just stop having it on the show.
Accidentus
Neo Member
Day[9] wasn't trying to argue on IdrA's level. IdrA was attempting to use specific examples, but Day[9] was talking about the game overall on a more metagame level. He was trying to say that not all avenues have been explored so it's difficult for him to say that one thing is imbalanced over another. Also, having a slightly angry and drunk nerd yell out 1 or 2 liners that speak in extreme generalities is not the best method of discussing something as complicated and in-depth as game balance.
All IdrA was siting was anecdotal examples.
Idra: "Zerg can't beat Protoss in a straight up game"
Day[9]: "Well here are X & Y examples of that"
IdrA: "Yeah well the Zerg was obviously a better player"
The whole argument of "The better player" that IdrA uses is retarded. Wtf is the better player? Isn't it the guy who wins?
All IdrA was siting was anecdotal examples.
Idra: "Zerg can't beat Protoss in a straight up game"
Day[9]: "Well here are X & Y examples of that"
IdrA: "Yeah well the Zerg was obviously a better player"
The whole argument of "The better player" that IdrA uses is retarded. Wtf is the better player? Isn't it the guy who wins?
He tends to think that the more experienced and hard working players should not be defeated by newer players, to start off, every bw player should win against people that started with starcraft 2.Accidentus said:
So if a newcommer wins it's just because he is exploiting some imbalance.
pieatorium
Member
Idra asked for examples of things that haven't been explored and Day just stared back, maybe said something about spanishiwa and then Idra countered that with what the drawbacks of that are. Don't remeber the exact flow of the convo but Day9 was speaking in much more extreme generalaties than Idra.
I remember Artosis doing a Hydra Infestor zvt a while back and wonder if that has been given a look with the new infestors. That mighthave been before the roach range buff though so maybe infestor roach would work better since they are alot more mobile but there would be alot more overkill damage from roaches on marines. It could force marauders which would eat away alittle at their other gas hungry units though.
I remember Artosis doing a Hydra Infestor zvt a while back and wonder if that has been given a look with the new infestors. That mighthave been before the roach range buff though so maybe infestor roach would work better since they are alot more mobile but there would be alot more overkill damage from roaches on marines. It could force marauders which would eat away alittle at their other gas hungry units though.
Accidentus said:
Idra was not infact only citing adecdotal examples, he also listed very general themes that affect the balance of play, in particular to do with scouting.
In a very general sense to be able to defend an attack you either need to be able to know what is coming and directly stop that type of attack or have a way to play that defends all possible attacks.
He said that with even a small amount of effort a terran can completely shut down scouting for the zerg. Marines stationed at the edges of a base can prevent any overlord scout and wall-offs obviously prevent all land scouting.
This means that the only way to defend these attacks is to have an all purpose defensive build that can hold off any kind of attack, because you simply do not know which kind of attack is coming. Unfortunately such a defensive build does not exist. The possibilities are simply too great and the variance in the type of attack is too much. As tasteless said in bw you knew it would either be a bio attack or a mech attack and the options were much narrower. Now there are many other types of attack that can come out and kill you, bio, mech, blue flame hellions, banshees, etc.
Because of these two facts he then said this means the only path left to you is to simply guess at what your opponent is doing. You will win some games, you will lose some games, maybe even at a 50/50 ratio, but this is poor game design because people are not winning by their skill and strength of strategies, they are winning based on coin flips.
Pandaman said:
if you're losing bases every 40 seconds you have to admit you're the weaker player. Come on now, Idra is known for having a biased opinion(case in point his show imbalanced where he only talked about colosi, the entire time). Day9 plays random, does not have one race where he plays, and has watched the game a whole lot, including doing analysis of the metagame. Idra is too focused on what advantages zerg need in order to make winning just that much easier for him.
how come zerg whine about scouting when overlords cost about the same as an observer costs but has more health? zerglings cost 25 minerals each, zealots 100. roaches burrowed could also be used for scouting, o wait zerg r just complaining because they feel they r persecuted.
i like how you repeated what i said.Aylinato said:
no, you dont get to play off day as a neutral party and being biased does not make idra wrong.
because they aren't invisible?
because they're supply depots?
because they're slower?
because that 'more health' isn't a huge functional advantage to scouting?
cupcakes are made with flower.
is there a reason we're just throwing out random statements of fact, or is it just in the hopes that it will legitimize our opinions in the eyes of people who don't know better?
right, spent 250/250 on upgrades, 150 on a tech path and 72/25 on a unit in the hopes that terran has a supply depot down so we can scout. at the 9 minute mark. genius. it would literally be cheaper and quicker to scout with an infestor, why didnt you suggest that? [because you know that would be absurd]
Stop acting like a moron Aylinato, it's unbecoming.
mescalineeyes
Banned
just because you're playing random does not make you impartial, all that means is you have 1/3 the experience in a match-up when talking to a peer.
idra and day9 are no peers when it comes to the game.
idra and day9 are no peers when it comes to the game.
Aylinato, start making sense if you want to talk about balance. That is yet to be achieved.
Idra was stating very specific examples, and Day9 simply could do nothing to even argue with it. He thinks some mystical discovery will happen that will shift the metagame to the Zerg's favor. Where in fact the Overlord scouting issues have been there since day1, and there is not much that a Zerg can do to make scouting more effective.
And yes, you can prepare against hellions with building a roach warren and making a few of them. You can prepare for banshees with planting 2 spore crawlers in both of your bases. But then when you see a stim-timing, you just die to it, plain and simple. Cause there were no hellions, no banshees, and you wasted a lot of minerals for this. Or you could mass queens and zerglings, and make some banes, when he is going for a siege timing, well: good luck with that, in a larger map especially.
Buffing overlord speed is one of the very basic fixes for this. I think what Day9 has been doing seriously wrong all time is that he just kept laughing at anything Idra says instead of trying to see if he really has a point. You can set up some players, form some kind of basic guidelines about how to play, and create 100-200 different scenarios where it is a coinflip if you guess the attack or not. Then, if Day9 itself would push this to the community or even to Blizzard without even making a show called Imbalanced, and adds all the replays, and all the pro/caster opinons on this, they COULD make a change.
Of course you gotta be careful what you want to make. But to propose something that goes to PTR? What harm is in that?
Idra was stating very specific examples, and Day9 simply could do nothing to even argue with it. He thinks some mystical discovery will happen that will shift the metagame to the Zerg's favor. Where in fact the Overlord scouting issues have been there since day1, and there is not much that a Zerg can do to make scouting more effective.
And yes, you can prepare against hellions with building a roach warren and making a few of them. You can prepare for banshees with planting 2 spore crawlers in both of your bases. But then when you see a stim-timing, you just die to it, plain and simple. Cause there were no hellions, no banshees, and you wasted a lot of minerals for this. Or you could mass queens and zerglings, and make some banes, when he is going for a siege timing, well: good luck with that, in a larger map especially.
Buffing overlord speed is one of the very basic fixes for this. I think what Day9 has been doing seriously wrong all time is that he just kept laughing at anything Idra says instead of trying to see if he really has a point. You can set up some players, form some kind of basic guidelines about how to play, and create 100-200 different scenarios where it is a coinflip if you guess the attack or not. Then, if Day9 itself would push this to the community or even to Blizzard without even making a show called Imbalanced, and adds all the replays, and all the pro/caster opinons on this, they COULD make a change.
Of course you gotta be careful what you want to make. But to propose something that goes to PTR? What harm is in that?
There are obviously issues with the Zerg early game. I've said that and I find Zerg to be extremely annoying to play against with all the ways you can lose a game immediately even when you're up 30-40 supply due to burrowed banelings, mutas outrunning and killing everything in your mineral lines, or a couple of infestors dropping fungals on your mineral lines or on your bio ball. Zerg can turn a match around faster than any race, and they can expand easier than any race, but they have a tough time in the early game. I think it's fair that they should have some deficiencies when they have so many huge moves.
Also, since everything Zerg is bio, you'd completely ruin team games if you buffed them too much in the early game. Have you ever had a Zerg army come in with medivac support? There's nothing more unfair than that.
Bottom line is that races aren't being explored anywhere as deep as Blizzard knows they are. They can't keep adapting to the way we play. Eventually we have to discover the strategies that are there. We're pretty stupid if we can't try out new stuff. While it's not perfect, Spanishiwa is a good example that there are different ways about approaching matches.
Also, since everything Zerg is bio, you'd completely ruin team games if you buffed them too much in the early game. Have you ever had a Zerg army come in with medivac support? There's nothing more unfair than that.
Bottom line is that races aren't being explored anywhere as deep as Blizzard knows they are. They can't keep adapting to the way we play. Eventually we have to discover the strategies that are there. We're pretty stupid if we can't try out new stuff. While it's not perfect, Spanishiwa is a good example that there are different ways about approaching matches.
Aquavelvaman
Banned
Imagine how op slightly faster ovies would be with medivac support. Infinite scouting!!!
BigAT said:
I (try to) sacrifice an Overlord nearly every game; at 4m30 against Protoss (since this is when their AA is weakest) and 5m against Terran. Against a competent opponent, I'll get little to no scouting info. All they need to do is position a stalker or a few marines at the likely entry points and my Overlord will be denied.
Competent players will also spread out their tech so that, even if an Overlord gets in, it won't see everything. Sometimes you only get half the picture and have to guess as to what your opponent is doing - if you guess wrong, you lose.
BigAT said:
Just so we are clear on some things here:
1) Scouting, saccing and overlord AND getting nothing out of it with proper building positioning is the issue here. Not even trying to scout is not okay, but that is not the issue here.
2) A scan is FREE. It is free, it might stop you from getting your minerals faster from your mineral patches (with this of course, you will also NOT gain more mineral in the next 60 seconds), but it does not "cost" anything. There is no "oh, I do not have money for my scan" problem, and it also does not cost a larva to make. I am totally betting on terrans opting for scan instead sometimes, especially before crucial tech decisions to make. In the longterm, it wont cost you anything.
V_Arnold said:
Just because it is technically "free" doesn't mean it costs you nothing. If a terran scans that means they have 300 fewer minerals to use in the short term. If there's a battle and you have 6 less marines at it, that could make a difference.
Having scanning and mules cost the same energy was one of the best design decisions Blizzard made since it adds a nice element of player choice.
Corran Horn
May the Schwartz be with you
Yall are funny
mescalineeyes
Banned
A scan can't be denied. I'd gladly play 300mins from an overlord that would get me as much information as quickly as a scan.
Not to mention on maps like tal'darim you are essentially playing blind.
Not to mention on maps like tal'darim you are essentially playing blind.
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