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//: StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty |OT2| GL HF GG
- Thread starter Corran Horn
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mescalineeyes
Banned
the fact that zerg has to be ready for 4 different kind of cheeses from, say, a terran, has to effectively hard counter each one specifically but has the hardest time acquiring that information tells me something is wrong.
What the hell happened on SOTG that has everyone riled up??
Everyone seems to be arguing about Overlord speed and, from what I'm reading, specifically for early game scouting? Is that the gist of it?
If so, that is something I can get behind. Out of 3 races, I do think Z has the hardest time scouting early games, especially since our scouting unit is:
- visible (unlike the observer/scan)
- slower (until lair tech when we can upgrade it, when we're probably a bit behind if we don't know too well what's going on)
- Tied to our supply cap
Everyone seems to be arguing about Overlord speed and, from what I'm reading, specifically for early game scouting? Is that the gist of it?
If so, that is something I can get behind. Out of 3 races, I do think Z has the hardest time scouting early games, especially since our scouting unit is:
- visible (unlike the observer/scan)
- slower (until lair tech when we can upgrade it, when we're probably a bit behind if we don't know too well what's going on)
- Tied to our supply cap
Pandaman said:
They both just boil down to either having more stuff right now or having more utility (from either better creep spread or more information). Either choice you make you are losing something.
And to me doing something isn't free if you lose something. But we might have different definitions.
applies equally to both choices.ultron87 said:
you dont think ive had a million terrans link that wiki article to me because they refuse to use the tools available to them?
furthermore, mineral consumption does not exist in a vacuum, terrans cant just blindly dump 270 minerals into anything at any time, builds have to be tailored to take advantage of your incoming economy. most zergs learned to do this based on their own comfort level of droning vs defense, there is a barrier in defensive early zerg play that nullifies the advantages of extra larvae versus that of creep spread, so zergs who want to improve their creep spread first learn to encorperate tumours within their own approaches to economy.
so yes, if you bitbybit someone, there will be a significant opportunity cost to using a scan since your production of scv's and marines will require consistent muling. but if that is a situation you have placed yourself by choice, you can hardly complain that scanning is a sacrifice.
A) Opportunity cost.V_Arnold said:
B) You're getting bogged down with semantics if you really think losing out on future minerals makes something "free". It's an absolutely foolish way to look at things, especially in this game. If I baneling bust your mineral line and you lose 10 workers, you would never say something so stupid as, "Well, it's not a big deal, it didn't cost me anything. I'm only losing out on future, potential minerals." Scanning instead of dropping a MULE results in the literal loss of 270 future minerals. Not having enough minerals to build units is just as detrimental to production as is losing a single larva to recreate a scouting Overlord.
It's as silly as if I told you that your Overlord is free because you start the game with it.
Ok, so it's harder for Zerg to scout, but thanks to creep spread they have the best map vision of any race. Terran is easily the worst there as for that kind of thing as Protoss has observers and hallucinated units.
Sometimes changelings do a great job getting into bases, but I think they should be immune to detection but just have a shorter lifespan. That would solve the scouting issue. By the time Terrans can have scans going or by the time Protoss has observers out, Zerg can have overseers out.
I'd rather have overlords get a bigger sight range than get more speed.
Sure, it would be nice if scouting could be improved for Zerg, but they have other advantages that the other races do not have. If scouting is their deficiency, their ability to expand and to swarm is a strength.
Sometimes changelings do a great job getting into bases, but I think they should be immune to detection but just have a shorter lifespan. That would solve the scouting issue. By the time Terrans can have scans going or by the time Protoss has observers out, Zerg can have overseers out.
I'd rather have overlords get a bigger sight range than get more speed.
Sure, it would be nice if scouting could be improved for Zerg, but they have other advantages that the other races do not have. If scouting is their deficiency, their ability to expand and to swarm is a strength.
Wow @ all the opportunity cost quoters. Jeez.
Scan costs 50 energy. You gain INFORMATION.
Mule costs 50 energy. You gain an additional mining unit for a minute.
Both is an investment, one returns you more minerals (but also makes your main mined out faster!), other gives you information.
Therefore, a scan does not COST money. You can quote wikipedia as many times as you want, but in a game where information is sometimes weighted as much as an expansion's worth of "economy", it is simply dumb to say "A scan costs 270 mineral", because it does not.
Scan costs 50 energy. You gain INFORMATION.
Mule costs 50 energy. You gain an additional mining unit for a minute.
Both is an investment, one returns you more minerals (but also makes your main mined out faster!), other gives you information.
Therefore, a scan does not COST money. You can quote wikipedia as many times as you want, but in a game where information is sometimes weighted as much as an expansion's worth of "economy", it is simply dumb to say "A scan costs 270 mineral", because it does not.
its not extra mining, it can barley keep you up with the zerg/protoss if they chrono boost probes on 2 bases.
listening to sotg, idra is a big joke and so is everyone else.
i can't believe that 2 zerg and 2 protosses are talking about balance.
too bad t hey can't add a terran because when they bring one they abuse him to hell.
its not like there is any good terran in na or one that have good english ( select/kas).
again, idra is a joke.
edit: who is the weakest race in bw ?
loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
Pandaman said:
Every choice you make anywhere in life involves a sacrifice. That's the definition of opportunity cost.
And to respond to what you edited into an earlier post: even if the sacrifice is less noticeable later in the game because you have 3 mining bases and a shit ton of minerals coming in, it is still a sacrifice.
fanboi said:
How quickly are you dying? If Terran and Protoss don't pressure Zerg early, they'll lose. When that pressure comes, you get a pretty good feel of their unit compositions. If they're waiting to tech up, Zerg should already be on more bases by the time they move out and they should be reloading their armies faster. Even if they're losing more units, they can resupply and adapt faster due to a better economy and map presence.
I'm not saying it's perfect for any race, and Zerg probably has it toughest since chese/all-ins are so strong against them, but they have their own unique strengths as well.
Corran Horn
May the Schwartz be with you
FuckWedgeX said:As much fun as it is to read y'all debate....
It only took coaching from Splinter and Dizzy, and practicing against Panda, Aylinato, Corran and Dizzy.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I like Day9 but from what I heard of SoTG last night (I fell asleep shortly after Tasteless rejoined the conversation), he completely embarrassed himself. Idra is obviously biased and very emotional, but his basic arguments were sound and Day9 refused to respond. Not to mention the multiple cases of
day9: how come you don't do x
idra: i did x in nasl/ipl/whatever
day9: oh well i didn't see that game
Really?
Zerg is the most defensive, reactionary race in the game. They're also the race with the toughest job in terms of scouting their opponent. Given the map sizes, sometimes you can play perfect and still be caught with your pants down after seeing the opponent's army running down his ramp.
day9: how come you don't do x
idra: i did x in nasl/ipl/whatever
day9: oh well i didn't see that game
Really?
Zerg is the most defensive, reactionary race in the game. They're also the race with the toughest job in terms of scouting their opponent. Given the map sizes, sometimes you can play perfect and still be caught with your pants down after seeing the opponent's army running down his ramp.
Chinese Electric Batman
Banned
because they are.syllogism said:
incontrol and tyler just trolling everyone else and day9 don't want anyone to say the game is imbalanced.
tyler and incontrol were freaking happy to hear about the thor nerf they almost cried out of happiness.
idra just as someone mentioned here think that players with better mechanic should always wins, maybe he should go back to bw because i don't see his theory working in sc2.
thats why i think sotg is just a funny show.
its like watching a sitcom but instead of actors you get sc2 pro players.
slidewinder
Banned
Nice. Thanks for the heads up.Chinese Electric Batman said:
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