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//: StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty |OT2| GL HF GG
- Thread starter Corran Horn
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other wise there's no spotmescalineeyes
Banned
The best way to deal with thors are either lings or infestors. Roaches work nicely as wellahoyhoy said:
Given the fact that magic boxed mutas LOLOLOL at thors I don't understand this post.
V_Arnold said:
Imo this is a silly reason to nerf thors. Each side gets its units and people come up with strategies to use those units best. Blizzard shouldnt be nerfing units just because they dont like to see lots of them. Are they saying you should only be going marine/tank with a couple of thors and if you deviate from this they will nerf whatever other unit you start using?
Deadman said:
You seem to be missing the part where they say Thors obscure vision of units behind them, and therefore after a point it becomes literally impossible to judge what army composition you are against it. Besides, Terran is the last race who needs another broken and "you need to scout it out NOW, or you die 3 mins later" type of build just for the funs. You are still free to mass thors, as you were before. It is just that you wont be able to as easily lockdown the counter to it without risking yourself in the process.
V_Arnold said:
Oh no, I'm agreeing with the Thor nerf, but I'm saying that all the races have the "if you don't scout them early enough you die" units. Zerg is obviously at the biggest disadvantage because they don't scout well, but that has nothing to do with the PvT match ups where DTs or Void Rays (for Protoss) or Thors (for Terran) can end a game just as quickly if they're not scouted.
Against a Zerg, if you can't find that Greater Spire before the Brood Lords are on top of you, it's essentially game over.
Jeff-DSA said:
Just please, do not take the part out and argue against it.
Thors are not just massable, strong, repairable, they killed their hard counters (immortals) without any losses due to their activable ability. Now they can be mana drained again, which is good. A huge amount of void rays still die to a similar or huger sized corruptors with some queen support - the point is, every other unit lacks OTHER CC tools and vision obscurity.
Just being insanely good when not scouted alone does not manage a nerf - the aforementioned traits together do.
prodystopian
Member
Won said:
Dustin Browder spoke about this at GDC. They want Thors/Ultras/Motherships/etc. to be massive compared to the other units, but it just isn't reasonable in building a competitive game because of things like pathing and visibility of nearby units.
mescalineeyes
Banned
the sad part is that not building a spine is fairly greedy at this point.
I don't know how other races would feel if they *had* to make stationary defenses.
I don't know how other races would feel if they *had* to make stationary defenses.
mescalineeyes said:
Still, spines and spores are awesome defense units because you can move them. I guess Terran gets to salvage bunkers, but it would be nice to throw some wheels under 'em and put them in front of your expansion when you don't need them at your initial wall anymore. Same goes for turrets.
Yeah, you kinda have to throw them down, but at least they're not permanently stuck in place.
mescalineeyes said:
It's generally considered greedy for a protoss doing a 3 gate sentry expand to not get a forge and at least 1 cannon in PvZ. It's generally considered greedy for a terran doing a 1 or 2 rax expand to not get multiple bunkers in TvP. I'm honestly not seeing much of a difference.
I would only say its greedy to not get a spine vs terran when you scout 2rax. Its perfectly safe without a spine if they only do get 1 barracks. Instead, get a queen for cheaper! (Spine+Drone =150 minerals + 1 larvae) And a queen can be much more versatile as well, get that early creep spread going.
Trickster said:
Are you suggesting that protoss must build defensive structures in order to expand? The following is some thoughts based on this assumption:
Currently the roach/ling allin vs 3 gate sentry expand is very strong in the metagame. Because of this, protoss players are 'forced' to make a forge + cannon in order to defend against this. This is because a handful of zealots + mostly sentries are not enough to handle this push. I would relate this to zerg getting caught with their pants down by a 4-gate. So as a protoss player what are the ways I can do to prevent me from "having" to put down the forge:
Early pressure before ling speed is done in order to delay the attack? I dont know if this works very well. In the IPL my protoss opponent opened up with 2 zealots and a stalker to put early pressure on me, forcing units and delaying any all-in I would do against this. Yes this might delay your expansion as well but I imagine it would equalize since you forced early units and now your expansion is safe thanks to some decent fighting units.
Alternativley, how about adding a couple non-sentry units if you suspect the attack coming. The reason why it is so weak against the attack is because sentries are more or less worthless as fighting units on their own. Additional stalkers/zealots could make up for this. Of course, this means more minerals and less gas, maybe this would be a good approach if you are going down a tech path sooner.
I have no idea if these actually work or not, just some ideas that I have floating around. Now, if you 'have' to get your forge I dont see this as a very big downfall. Doing the 3-gate sentry expand is fairly greedy on maps like xel'naga with wide open naturals. Its dangerous for the exact same reason why you dont see many zergs doing fast expansions on these maps. Ive seen toss's getting away with the same build on maps like Shattered temple where they do not 'have' to get a forge in order to be well defended.
Anyways, im sure this is way too theoretical and useless to most of you people (casual gaf). If we cant come up with any decent reasoning behind this forge argument then it is not even worth discussing. I might as well say something like zerg HAS to get a spawning pool to fast expand vs protoss.
mescalineeyes
Banned
Elcheris said:
yes, hatch first against protoss is not viable.
Trickster
Member
Elcheris said:
No I'm not, I haven't used the word expand once in this whole debate actually. What I've been saying however, is that the reason why both Protoss and Terran are both less dependent on their cannons and turrets than their zerg counterparts, is because cannons and turrets are harder to get access to than spines.
Sorry if my posts have been confusing, but that's usually what happens when one argues with zerg players that use a lot of "what if" and scenario specific arguments to demonstrate the new weekly reason why zergs are underpowered.
cubicle47b
Member
Idra will rule the world with an iron fist someday with his fan club members being the backbone of his army.
mescalineeyes
Banned
Pandaman said:
it's sort of a coinflip though, hoping he scouts you last and didn't go forge first -- which he will.
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