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Team Fortress 2 Official PC Thread. SO. WORTH. IT.
- Thread starter saelz8
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Flamethrower Pyros are just fine, the airblast is an incredible tool when you learn how to use it. It most certainly is not for engie babysitting, it has 3 big uses:
1.) Deflecting projectiles, obviously. Namely rockets. Just deflecting whatever you can at a distance is easy and protects your team, but when you master the timing it's extremely useful in direct combat against Soldiers. You can deflect rockets at any range with good enough reflexes, and hit the Soldier almost every time with good enough aim. I reflect rockets literally point blank all the time - ambush the Soldier, burn him until you see him turn around and look right at you, then airblast and odds are you'll hit him right in the face with his own rocket. Then switch to the shotgun and finish if he isn't dead yet. Demos are harder but you can at least protect yourself from them, as well as breaking sticky fields or even blasting pipes lying on the ground to stop them from hurting your team.
2.) Self-defense. When you're in a pinch, knocking them away buys you and your teammates some breathing room to escape. Works wonders against Pyros and Heavies, or anybody you can shove around a corner. Heavy walking through your front door with his gun spun up? Whoops, not anymore. With a little maneuvering you can also push them in the path of your turrets which is always a good time. Be sure to set them on fire first either way, there's no reason not to.
3.) Breaking ubers. Very, very big deal, especially on the offense/defense maps. Ubers are a big part in getting the momentum to win in this game, and the airblast absolutely crushes them. Don't bother trying to separate the Medic, that takes too long - just keep blasting his ubered buddy back the way he came and the uber is powerless. Don't charge at him, just wait on your side for them to come in and then jump out to push them away again.
I thought the Flamethrower was the better of the two weapons before. Now, the Backburner is useless and they really need to fix it somehow. It breaks my heart to see so many Pyros even now still not realize that - they just gave up with the airblast after a couple hours and now it goes to waste.
1.) Deflecting projectiles, obviously. Namely rockets. Just deflecting whatever you can at a distance is easy and protects your team, but when you master the timing it's extremely useful in direct combat against Soldiers. You can deflect rockets at any range with good enough reflexes, and hit the Soldier almost every time with good enough aim. I reflect rockets literally point blank all the time - ambush the Soldier, burn him until you see him turn around and look right at you, then airblast and odds are you'll hit him right in the face with his own rocket. Then switch to the shotgun and finish if he isn't dead yet. Demos are harder but you can at least protect yourself from them, as well as breaking sticky fields or even blasting pipes lying on the ground to stop them from hurting your team.
2.) Self-defense. When you're in a pinch, knocking them away buys you and your teammates some breathing room to escape. Works wonders against Pyros and Heavies, or anybody you can shove around a corner. Heavy walking through your front door with his gun spun up? Whoops, not anymore. With a little maneuvering you can also push them in the path of your turrets which is always a good time. Be sure to set them on fire first either way, there's no reason not to.
3.) Breaking ubers. Very, very big deal, especially on the offense/defense maps. Ubers are a big part in getting the momentum to win in this game, and the airblast absolutely crushes them. Don't bother trying to separate the Medic, that takes too long - just keep blasting his ubered buddy back the way he came and the uber is powerless. Don't charge at him, just wait on your side for them to come in and then jump out to push them away again.
I thought the Flamethrower was the better of the two weapons before. Now, the Backburner is useless and they really need to fix it somehow. It breaks my heart to see so many Pyros even now still not realize that - they just gave up with the airblast after a couple hours and now it goes to waste.
It is when you compare it to the airblast I just finished talking about. It wasn't before, but now, those back-crits happen so rarely(against people who occasionally look around) that they alone can't possibly be equated with the airblast under pretty much any circumstances. Even if you're not good with the airblast, the easy stuff alone like uber-breaking and self-defense make it worthwhile.TheOneGuy said:
I haven't played much pyro lately, but I know that when Iw as using the backburner, I was at least twice as deadly thanks to the crits, and I very rarely actually took enough damage for that extra health to even matter.Zek said:
The health was a nice bonus and that's it. The crits are what really mattered.
Even with my ping, I was still really effective with the pyro, and I've always had the MSOT trouble with that class thanks to the latency problems.
I don't know why you're lecturing me on CB's usefulness, though. I was one of the few people who defended it after the backburner was revealed.
Confidence Man
Member
Now that the idiotic health bonus is gone people seem to be coming around to what a shitty idea just adding guaranteed crits to a weapon is. It's not in the spirit of the class, or even of the game. Valve sure loves their crits, though.
Blog updated: TF2 Environments
Sounds like the Heavy pack may still be a while off, then.
Jakob Jungels said:
Sounds like the Heavy pack may still be a while off, then.
Well the back-crit detection is incredibly strict. It will not work unless they are facing directly away from you and you are running straight towards them. In other words they have to be completely oblivious to your presence and not looking around or being careful at all. That doesn't happen very often if the other team is any good(and if they're not, well, it doesn't matter what you use). Even in the situations where you get back-crits, most of the time you would have gotten the kill anyway with a normal flamethrower. The health boost was the better bonus because it was reliable and helped in all situations regardless of enemy competence.TheOneGuy said:
You can't, but the first round of missiles goes out instantly, so what you have to do is get hit by just a bullet or two so the missiles launch, duck back behind the corner, and then pop out again in time to reflect the missiles. It's not worth the trouble very often.Javaman said:
? It's completely in spirit of the class, it's just an old-fashioned Pyro that's a little better at ambushing. There's nothing wrong with that IMHO, they just need to either improve the back-crits or add another feature to fill it out.Confidence Man said:
Well, hey, fine, whatever. Maybe that's your experience, but...Zek said:
I can pretty reliably get back-crits. You just have to, you know, ambush. Be smart about it. Wait until they're already engaged in battle and distracted, THEN jump them with it. (This strategy also works remarkably well for the spy, of course!) Simply hiding around the corner when they're only halfway to the battle isn't good enough. Jump from above, if possible. Etc.
Just saying, when somebody is already engaged and distracted and you start flaming them from behind, it doesn't generally matter if you crit or not. And all the times things don't go that well, you've got no airblast. Back-crits come in handy once in a while, sure, but the airblast is a major class-defining ability and I think people still don't realize what they're giving up when they just pick Backburner by default.TheOneGuy said:
Has this been posted here yet? So it turns out BB has longer range than the regular Flamethrower. Valve did some ninja buff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyZxJYo_Q4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyZxJYo_Q4I
I love this nerf. Love it. Now I can battle other Pyros armed with the standard flamethrower and have a fighting chance! (More than that, I'm winning the vast majority of Pyro on Pyro fights 
)
Now that I'm using the standard flamethrower I get more use out of the compression blast, and I'm definitely finding it more valuable than the backburner's crits. I'm catching on to all the subtleties of breaking up uber pairs, deflecting projectiles and slowing enemies down now.
Botolf is a happy Pyro.
)Now that I'm using the standard flamethrower I get more use out of the compression blast, and I'm definitely finding it more valuable than the backburner's crits. I'm catching on to all the subtleties of breaking up uber pairs, deflecting projectiles and slowing enemies down now.
Botolf is a happy Pyro.
Oh god that was amazing. On 2fort2furious we were playing on Granary. I was at the center as Medic and about to die (With 100% charge), so I grabbed the nearest person, which was dygit as Scout. He proceeded to bat 2 people to death, after which the uber ran out and we went on to the fourth CP. On the way he bat-killed about 5 or 6 more people. We then went for the last point (By this time the rest of our team had capped the 3rd and 4th point) and actually got it :lol
Confidence Man
Member
Won said:
It's the fact that so far three of their weapon upgrades revolve around crits in some way (either restricting them or guaranteeing them under certain conditions); what was at first just a random element of the game is now turning into a central gameplay element around which things are being designed.
It just seems like a cop-out on Valve's part. Of all the new kinds of weapons one can come up with for a pyro, all they can manage is one that gives crits from behind (which doesn't make any sense, why would fire hurt more from behind?). I know, it's a game and all, but still. There are probably a hundred better ways to make the class more effective without mucking around with crits.
Giganticus
Member
Remember that GOD guy on 2f2f? The demos I have of him also show me getting a 5 kill streak during an uber on Mini Canyon.Capndrake said:
With a Machete.
PillowKnight
Member
Are you serious? Crits have never been "a random element of the game" , they've been part of the balance since the start; as we can see with melee weapons.Confidence Man said:
That aside, I would be more likely to agree with you if back crits did not play to the pyro's strengths. How else would you make the pyro more deadly on ambushes?
The worst part though, is how you completely ignore the CB. The CB, shows that valve isn't just taking the easy route when it comes to changing the classes, and that they are open to really cool ideas--even one as drastic and game changing as the CB.
It's also ironic that the same person who complained about crits being random is now complaining when crits are made not random. Although, I suppose you just hate crits in general, but I just think that's silly.
Confidence Man said:
Aww you just hate the sound, don't you? Pyro is an Ambush class - new weapon gets damage increase, if you ambush.....makes sense to me....from a gameplay point of view.
And hundred better ways.....did you miss the compression blast and the flare gun?
Fake edit:....I'm not deleting this becaus of PillowKnight!
Confidence Man
Member
PillowKnight said:
Crits are, as valve described them, a way to implement randomness into an otherwise deterministic set of rules (whether you consider that "balance" is another matter), and I can get where they're coming from even though I think it's a cheap way to bring that in.
As for the Pyro, if they wanted to buff his ambushing skills they could've just added a new flamethrower that did more base damage than the regular one and maybe disoriented the victim a lot more (unless you're a sniper, being on fire doesn't really affect your ability to fight) so it would be a lot harder to just spin around and fire back.
And the CB is great. Love it. All I want is the same thought put into the rest of the weapons.
It wasn't a complaint about crits per se, more about Valve's choice of new weapon with respect to the Backburner (I would probably say the same about the Kritzkrieg).
And Won, why should an ambush only be effective from behind? A surprise attack can come from anywhere. A Pyro should be a close quarters monster from any angle.
PillowKnight
Member
I took offense on the "just" part, which I didn't quote. As for your suggestion, that sounds insanely unbalanced, and would be a buff to pyros who also attack from the front, it rewards poor game play, unlike the back burner which rewards only surprise attacks. Also, taking away control from the game player is a lame game mechanic-- one which is much more frustrating than death.Confidence Man said:
We'll just have to disagree, I don't mind valve giving weapons a x3 atk modifier for performing a specific action. Specially considering so far their use of crits have made sense with the class, they're not just throwing it in cause they need to put in a new weapon.
PillowKnight
Member
Download this : http://www.erlenddahl.net/tf2stats/Default.aspx#downloadTrax416 said:
Had a bit of fun tonight.
-Me (pyro) and a medic took an almost 100% health heavy down with axe and bonesaw, just spun circles around him :lol
-My friend Blizinak was on the other team. Long story short, I lost the guy I was healing, went for the teleporter, and right before I used my bonesaw, he teleported in, got hit by it, and died.
I showed Twig what BONK means!
Also, don't you feel disappointed when you heal someone and they die? I was healing Twig the demoman since he wanted some health, and right almost when I got him at 100%, something like a crit rocket just kills him.
-Me (pyro) and a medic took an almost 100% health heavy down with axe and bonesaw, just spun circles around him :lol
-My friend Blizinak was on the other team. Long story short, I lost the guy I was healing, went for the teleporter, and right before I used my bonesaw, he teleported in, got hit by it, and died.
I showed Twig what BONK means!
Also, don't you feel disappointed when you heal someone and they die? I was healing Twig the demoman since he wanted some health, and right almost when I got him at 100%, something like a crit rocket just kills him.
Giganticus
Member
Crit stickies do over 300 damage. Normal crit nades do 295. Ridiculous to be honest.rakka said:
Giganticus
Member
If they are direct, then yes. Heavies are very slow, more so when fighting, and are easier to score a direct hit on.Ysiadmihi said:
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