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The Black Culture Thread |OT8| Hands Up, Don't Shoot

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I

ishibear

is a goddamn bear
Momotaro said:
Good post.

Though it makes me wonder, what would things be like if Bayonetta were a black woman?
Click to expand...

They would give her the same shit they give Nicki Minaj and Beyonce. Especially Nicki because they do have quite a bit in common now that I think about it.
 
T

Trey

Member
ishibear said:
Personally, I do see Bayonetta as an empowered woman. I think she's a great female character for the industry so that people can see there's a difference between waifus who exist to be sexualized and fapped over and a sexy woman who is without a doubt sexualized but she takes charge with it and feels empowered.

Kamiya himself wants her to be seen as a woman in control of her sexuality. This is interesting because recently there was discussion over should women who work at Hooters feel empowered. Bayonetta would fit in with this topic because it all comes down to, "women who like to flaunt their sexuality can and do feel empowered by it".

This is something a lot of people aren't comfortable with but too bad. A woman (in this case Bayonetta) who owns her sex appeal is not gross, being objectified or slutty. She's empowered. If she wasn't comfortable being sexualized, then she would be a problematic character. Bayonetta, is not.
Click to expand...

It's difficult because she's not a person, so you can't call her empowered in the same way you can call Beyonce or Nicki Minaj empowered. She's a creation. And all the ass shots and the "male gaze" camera are there mostly for the straight male's enjoyment. But it's also true that there are plenty women who do find her iconic and empowering, so this viewpoint cannot be discounted. It's absolutely true that more is done to make her sexualization an actual part of her character than is done for most representations of women in gaming.

Her sexuality is a part of her character and intrinsic to her design, so much so that her power is directly proportional to how naked she gets. Ultimately, she's a character Kamiya wanted to create and she's powerful within the context of the world created around her. But I also can understand how a person can read the character as problematic.
 
E

EscoBlades

Ubisoft Marketing
Slayven said:
And proved to me that 99% of people that mention feminist on the internet don't know what the word means.
Click to expand...

As i've said before, third wave feminism (read any feminism outside of hardcore academia) has an image problem. Both from within as well as externally.
 
R

ReiGun

Member
Like I said in the thread, the camera's obsession with Bayo's ass and crotch is the most problematic aspect of the game because it sometimes undermines her agency as it's clearly meant just appease the male gaze.

However, I just can't jive with the "all sex is bad" camp anymore than the "everyone is a prude/faux-outrage!" guys. It's all about context, and I think in context of the game and what the developers were trying to achieve, Bayo comes out ahead. I think the problem is that in the larger context of games, upon first impression she comes across as business as usual.

People compare her to Dante, who is a clear rip on the male dudebro anime action achetype taken to its logical extremes. But the difference is Dante is surrounded by characters who are nothing like him, so he can serve as a parody of those characters while still being his own thing. Bayo, however, exists in a genre full of sexualized women; indeed, sexualization is often the default for women in games. So upon seeing a trailer that starts with by zooming in on her crotch while she gleefully asks "Do you want to touch me?," I can understand why a person would immediately think "not this shit again."

Rayven_king said:
Now u got me picturing a wicked weave with black hair
Click to expand...
A black woman with a power called wicked weave would be dope to the point I'm kinda bummed Bayo isn't already black.
 
I

ishibear

is a goddamn bear
Trey said:
It's difficult because she's not a person, so you can't call her empowered in the same way you can call Beyonce or Nicki Minaj empowered. She's a creation. And all the ass shots and the "male gaze" camera are there mostly for the straight male's enjoyment. But it's also true that there are plenty women who do find her iconic and empowering, so this viewpoint cannot be discounted. It's absolutely true that more is done to make her sexualization an actual part of her character than is done for most representations of women in gaming.

Her sexuality is a part of her character and intrinsic to her design, so much so that her power is directly proportional to how naked she gets. Ultimately, she's a character Kamiya wanted to create and she's powerful within the context of the world created around her. But I also can understand how a person can read the character as problematic.
Click to expand...

I try taking the fact that she's a creation into account but I still don't really see her as problematic given how much emphasis is put on her "power, confidence and control" characterization. I mentioned Hooters workers for this reason. Sure, they are sexualized and objectified by every man who comes there, but that still doesn't undermine the empowerment they feel.

Bayonetta being a creation puts the burden of proof on Kamiya. What convinces me of his passion for her being empowered was his reaction to seeing art of her as a submissive, alongside the power she wields in games and the glorification of female sexuality that isn't simply for eye candy~ but to assert her control over who she is and what she has.

Bayonetta seems a world different than a lot of other sexualized characters. She's a conundrum but ultimately I don't see her as problematic...

But I will concede that sexuality in video games still has a long way to go ~ actually, sex in media in general has a way to go because it's still so taboo.
 
V

ViewtifulJC

Banned
The way I see Bayonetta is the successor to characters like Dante or Viewtiful Joe, to keep in line with Hideki Kamiya's past titles, in that of a cool, confident action hero and entire world revolves around them. Kamiya said that he designs games as if a crowd were watching you in an arcade, and its readily apparent throughout his titles this is his driving mentality, to make you look cool and stylish. You zoom in on Viewtiful Joe, enemies cower in fear of your awesomeness. There's a style meter in DMC1 encouraging you to play like a cinematic action hero to an unknown audience. High combos in Viewtiful Joe award you rounds of applause, even "My hero!" exclamations from one of the girls in the back row.

Bayonetta is the evolution of these games in many ways, and so much of her design is based on that show-off quality. She walks through demonic hellscapes like she's on a catwalk. She openly taunts giant monsters by shooting them in a face when she's bored of their conversation, lookin' incredibly unimpressed as giant objects pass inches from her face. She almost always talks in a smug, aloof manner that portrays a very easy confidence. There's a dance-off between her and an enemy, complete with inexplicable confetti and a light show. She's taken objects that were used to kill her breed, witches, and used them on her enemies because its fun to her(Iron Maidens, Guillotines, etc). She is the world's biggest pop star, complete with sexy camera angles that she openly flaunts but never submits to anyone("can't touch me!"). She's a total power fantasy, the difference being she's a very "feminine" power fantasy. She likes lipstick, and butterflies, and fashion magazines, and she blows kisses that destroy demonic gates.

Now one person's celebratory might be another voyeuristic, or hell they may be a bit of both, but I've honestly never seen much of a problem with Bayontetta's portrayal overall. Its seems consistent with not only Kamiya's oeuvre of stylish, cool power fantasy heroes, but its internally consistent with the entire design of the game, from Witch Time to Wicked Weaves to Bayonetta's writing, animations, and voice acting. They've created a female character who's cool, powerful, and confident, and its something that's ingrained throughout the entire game.
 
T

TheBlackMarvel

Member
ViewtifulJC said:
The way I see Bayonetta is the successor to characters like Dante or Viewtiful Joe, to keep in line with Hideki Kamiya's past titles, in that of a cool, confident action hero and entire world revolves around them. Kamiya said that he designs games as if a crowd were watching you in an arcade, and its readily apparent throughout his titles this is his driving mentality, to make you look cool and stylish. You zoom in on Viewtiful Joe, enemies cower in fear of your awesomeness. There's a style meter in DMC1 encouraging you to play like a cinematic action hero to an unknown audience. High combos in Viewtiful Joe award you rounds of applause, even "My hero!" exclamations from one of the girls in the back row.

Bayonetta is the evolution of these games in many ways, and so much of her design is based on that show-off quality. She walks through demonic hellscapes like she's on a catwalk. She openly taunts giant monsters by shooting them in a face when she's bored of their conversation, lookin' incredibly unimpressed as giant objects pass inches from her face. She almost always talks in a smug, aloof manner that portrays a very easy confidence. There's a dance-off between her and an enemy, complete with inexplicable confetti and a light show. She's taken objects that were used to kill her breed, witches, and used them on her enemies because its fun to her(Iron Maidens, Guillotines, etc). She is the world's biggest pop star, complete with sexy camera angles that she openly flaunts but never submits to anyone("can't touch me!"). She's a total power fantasy, the difference being she's a very "feminine" power fantasy. She likes lipstick, and butterflies, and fashion magazines, and she blows kisses that destroy demonic gates.

Now one person's celebratory might be another voyeuristic, or hell they may be a bit of both, but I've honestly never seen much of a problem with Bayontetta's portrayal overall. Its seems consistent with not only Kamiya's oeuvre of stylish, cool power fantasy heroes, but its internally consistent with the entire design of the game, from Witch Time to Wicked Weaves to Bayonetta's writing, animations, and voice acting. They've created a female character who's cool, powerful, and confident, and its something that's ingrained throughout the entire game.
Click to expand...

dhMeAzK.gif
 
M

Mortemis

Banned
Damn, didn't know besada gave good posts through his alts.

Seriously, great post JC. Bayonetta has always been seen to me as definitely something Kamiya would make, flashy and yet powerful, never just a trophy sexualized girl in the background. Never making anyone feel like protecting her, just her doing insanely flashy and cool shit.

Kraftwerk said:
Ill be honest, I am pretty proud of myself;

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=911549

Fam, If I get banned for trolling, know that I love you all.
Click to expand...

P.O.P. holdin' it down.
 
S

Slayven

Member
ViewtifulJC said:
The way I see Bayonetta is the successor to characters like Dante or Viewtiful Joe, to keep in line with Hideki Kamiya's past titles, in that of a cool, confident action hero and entire world revolves around them. Kamiya said that he designs games as if a crowd were watching you in an arcade, and its readily apparent throughout his titles this is his driving mentality, to make you look cool and stylish. You zoom in on Viewtiful Joe, enemies cower in fear of your awesomeness. There's a style meter in DMC1 encouraging you to play like a cinematic action hero to an unknown audience. High combos in Viewtiful Joe award you rounds of applause, even "My hero!" exclamations from one of the girls in the back row.

Bayonetta is the evolution of these games in many ways, and so much of her design is based on that show-off quality. She walks through demonic hellscapes like she's on a catwalk. She openly taunts giant monsters by shooting them in a face when she's bored of their conversation, lookin' incredibly unimpressed as giant objects pass inches from her face. She almost always talks in a smug, aloof manner that portrays a very easy confidence. There's a dance-off between her and an enemy, complete with inexplicable confetti and a light show. She's taken objects that were used to kill her breed, witches, and used them on her enemies because its fun to her(Iron Maidens, Guillotines, etc). She is the world's biggest pop star, complete with sexy camera angles that she openly flaunts but never submits to anyone("can't touch me!"). She's a total power fantasy, the difference being she's a very "feminine" power fantasy. She likes lipstick, and butterflies, and fashion magazines, and she blows kisses that destroy demonic gates.

Now one person's celebratory might be another voyeuristic, or hell they may be a bit of both, but I've honestly never seen much of a problem with Bayontetta's portrayal overall. Its seems consistent with not only Kamiya's oeuvre of stylish, cool power fantasy heroes, but its internally consistent with the entire design of the game, from Witch Time to Wicked Weaves to Bayonetta's writing, animations, and voice acting. They've created a female character who's cool, powerful, and confident, and its something that's ingrained throughout the entire game.
Click to expand...

Nigga save your dissertation for your school, University of Phoenix.
 
C

ChamplooJones

Formerly Momotaro
ViewtifulJC said:
The way I see Bayonetta is the successor to characters like Dante or Viewtiful Joe, to keep in line with Hideki Kamiya's past titles, in that of a cool, confident action hero and entire world revolves around them. Kamiya said that he designs games as if a crowd were watching you in an arcade, and its readily apparent throughout his titles this is his driving mentality, to make you look cool and stylish. You zoom in on Viewtiful Joe, enemies cower in fear of your awesomeness. There's a style meter in DMC1 encouraging you to play like a cinematic action hero to an unknown audience. High combos in Viewtiful Joe award you rounds of applause, even "My hero!" exclamations from one of the girls in the back row.

Bayonetta is the evolution of these games in many ways, and so much of her design is based on that show-off quality. She walks through demonic hellscapes like she's on a catwalk. She openly taunts giant monsters by shooting them in a face when she's bored of their conversation, lookin' incredibly unimpressed as giant objects pass inches from her face. She almost always talks in a smug, aloof manner that portrays a very easy confidence. There's a dance-off between her and an enemy, complete with inexplicable confetti and a light show. She's taken objects that were used to kill her breed, witches, and used them on her enemies because its fun to her(Iron Maidens, Guillotines, etc). She is the world's biggest pop star, complete with sexy camera angles that she openly flaunts but never submits to anyone("can't touch me!"). She's a total power fantasy, the difference being she's a very "feminine" power fantasy. She likes lipstick, and butterflies, and fashion magazines, and she blows kisses that destroy demonic gates.

Now one person's celebratory might be another voyeuristic, or hell they may be a bit of both, but I've honestly never seen much of a problem with Bayontetta's portrayal overall. Its seems consistent with not only Kamiya's oeuvre of stylish, cool power fantasy heroes, but its internally consistent with the entire design of the game, from Witch Time to Wicked Weaves to Bayonetta's writing, animations, and voice acting. They've created a female character who's cool, powerful, and confident, and its something that's ingrained throughout the entire game.
Click to expand...

Mah nigga. Preach.
 
R

ReiGun

Member
ViewtifulJC said:
The way I see Bayonetta is the successor to characters like Dante or Viewtiful Joe, to keep in line with Hideki Kamiya's past titles, in that of a cool, confident action hero and entire world revolves around them. Kamiya said that he designs games as if a crowd were watching you in an arcade, and its readily apparent throughout his titles this is his driving mentality, to make you look cool and stylish. You zoom in on Viewtiful Joe, enemies cower in fear of your awesomeness. There's a style meter in DMC1 encouraging you to play like a cinematic action hero to an unknown audience. High combos in Viewtiful Joe award you rounds of applause, even "My hero!" exclamations from one of the girls in the back row.

Bayonetta is the evolution of these games in many ways, and so much of her design is based on that show-off quality. She walks through demonic hellscapes like she's on a catwalk. She openly taunts giant monsters by shooting them in a face when she's bored of their conversation, lookin' incredibly unimpressed as giant objects pass inches from her face. She almost always talks in a smug, aloof manner that portrays a very easy confidence. There's a dance-off between her and an enemy, complete with inexplicable confetti and a light show. She's taken objects that were used to kill her breed, witches, and used them on her enemies because its fun to her(Iron Maidens, Guillotines, etc). She is the world's biggest pop star, complete with sexy camera angles that she openly flaunts but never submits to anyone("can't touch me!"). She's a total power fantasy, the difference being she's a very "feminine" power fantasy. She likes lipstick, and butterflies, and fashion magazines, and she blows kisses that destroy demonic gates.

Now one person's celebratory might be another voyeuristic, or hell they may be a bit of both, but I've honestly never seen much of a problem with Bayontetta's portrayal overall. Its seems consistent with not only Kamiya's oeuvre of stylish, cool power fantasy heroes, but its internally consistent with the entire design of the game, from Witch Time to Wicked Weaves to Bayonetta's writing, animations, and voice acting. They've created a female character who's cool, powerful, and confident, and its something that's ingrained throughout the entire game.
Click to expand...
"Nigga did you just say what i was trying to say but smarter? "

Seriously though, good post.
 
M

Malyse

Member
PROTIP: GamerGate is a bunch of whiny MRA manbabies hunting for faux corruption, while GamersGate is a pretty decent site for discounted PC games.

Let's do our best not to unintentionally libel.

the-more-you-know-o+%25281%2529.gif
 
Jackben

Jackben

bitch I'm taking calls.
Slayven said:
How do you fuck up scrambled eggs?
Click to expand...
Remember that thread where some random dude posted a picture of what happened when he tried to make spaghetti but "forgot to stir lolol"? That plus a million other examples of functionally challenged cooking makes GAF the polar opposite of Good Eats.
 
V

Vermillion

Banned
ishibear said:
I try taking the fact that she's a creation into account but I still don't really see her as problematic given how much emphasis is put on her "power, confidence and control" characterization. I mentioned Hooters workers for this reason. Sure, they are sexualized and objectified by every man who comes there, but that still doesn't undermine the empowerment they feel.

Bayonetta being a creation puts the burden of proof on Kamiya. What convinces me of his passion for her being empowered was his reaction to seeing art of her as a submissive, alongside the power she wields in games and the glorification of female sexuality that isn't simply for eye candy~ but to assert her control over who she is and what she has.

Bayonetta seems a world different than a lot of other sexualized characters. She's a conundrum but ultimately I don't see her as problematic...

But I will concede that sexuality in video games still has a long way to go ~ actually, sex in media in general has a way to go because it's still so taboo.
Click to expand...

ViewtifulJC said:
The way I see Bayonetta is the successor to characters like Dante or Viewtiful Joe, to keep in line with Hideki Kamiya's past titles, in that of a cool, confident action hero and entire world revolves around them. Kamiya said that he designs games as if a crowd were watching you in an arcade, and its readily apparent throughout his titles this is his driving mentality, to make you look cool and stylish. You zoom in on Viewtiful Joe, enemies cower in fear of your awesomeness. There's a style meter in DMC1 encouraging you to play like a cinematic action hero to an unknown audience. High combos in Viewtiful Joe award you rounds of applause, even "My hero!" exclamations from one of the girls in the back row.

Bayonetta is the evolution of these games in many ways, and so much of her design is based on that show-off quality. She walks through demonic hellscapes like she's on a catwalk. She openly taunts giant monsters by shooting them in a face when she's bored of their conversation, lookin' incredibly unimpressed as giant objects pass inches from her face. She almost always talks in a smug, aloof manner that portrays a very easy confidence. There's a dance-off between her and an enemy, complete with inexplicable confetti and a light show. She's taken objects that were used to kill her breed, witches, and used them on her enemies because its fun to her(Iron Maidens, Guillotines, etc). She is the world's biggest pop star, complete with sexy camera angles that she openly flaunts but never submits to anyone("can't touch me!"). She's a total power fantasy, the difference being she's a very "feminine" power fantasy. She likes lipstick, and butterflies, and fashion magazines, and she blows kisses that destroy demonic gates.

Now one person's celebratory might be another voyeuristic, or hell they may be a bit of both, but I've honestly never seen much of a problem with Bayontetta's portrayal overall. Its seems consistent with not only Kamiya's oeuvre of stylish, cool power fantasy heroes, but its internally consistent with the entire design of the game, from Witch Time to Wicked Weaves to Bayonetta's writing, animations, and voice acting. They've created a female character who's cool, powerful, and confident, and its something that's ingrained throughout the entire game.
Click to expand...

Interesting, both of you.
 
D

Devolution

Member
I like Bayo but it's pretty shallow and Kamiya is given far too much credit for what's basically a female Dante built up from his exaggerated preferences/fetishes.
 
M

Malyse

Member
Devolution said:
I like Bayo but it's pretty shallow and Kamiya is given far too much credit for what's basically a female Dante built up from his exaggerated preferences/fetishes.
Click to expand...

Remember the interview with the ass modeler? Like for real dudes job was to get the ass looking right.

Bayo anime was fucking awful.
didn't even play Fly Me to the Moon. Fucking SRSLY?
 
M

Malyse

Member
The Albatross said:
NotTheGuyYouKill has such a bizarre thread history, I am convinced he's writing a book for how to deal with potentially bothersome life situations... And crowd sourcing all of the data from NeoGaf. His thread five months ago about corporate espionage, followed by a thread saying he's done nothing for four months and wants business school advice, followed by a thread asking how to bury his upstart competition ... is interesting.

Chapter 1: How to evict a tennant
Chapter 2: How to deal with employees who think you are a bad boss
Chapter 3: How to utterly destroy business competition

... (middle chapters on celebrity gossip)

Chapter 7: Finding the World's best chocolate and buying it online
Chapter 8: How to deal with overqualified resentful employees
Chapter 9: How to trick people into thinking your brand is worth the money
Chapter 10: Is business school worth it?

Afterward: How to be a corporate spy or deal with corporate espionage




I'M ONTO YOU!
Click to expand...

Oh.
 
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