Whatever, we're all fucked up in some way. Considering her parenting skills it could have been way worse.
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The Legend of Korra: Book 4 |OT2| ALL HAIL THE GREAT UNITER
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Whatever, we're all fucked up in some way. Considering her parenting skills it could have been way worse.
FeenixRising
Banned
This is true, they turned out pretty okay considering who their mother was.
One became a grumpy chief of police who kicks around Mako all day.
The other founded her own city and raised a dictator that destroyed Republic City.
JadedWriter
Member
She should be embarrassed by the fact that Zuko of all people raised better kids than her. I have no problem with Lin and Su's social influences, but god damn they're messed up. Took Lin forever to work through her problems and Su's still a narcissist.
it should be kept in mind that, when she ran away, Toph's parents sent after her the shady wrestler and wrestling manager that allowed her to fight in the ring in the first place, then attacked her after capturing her friends who they would later sell to the avatar, both of whom had a grudge against her.
In comparison, Toph just didn't know how to manage her kids personal issues, which honestly, who the hell does?
In comparison, Toph just didn't know how to manage her kids personal issues, which honestly, who the hell does?
JadedWriter
Member
Zuko was co raised by Ozai of all people and he turned into a pretty decent parent based on what we saw of Iroh Jr. and Izumi.
m_shortpants
Member
Bruh, I loaded the thread, read some posts, then by the time I finally posted it was no longer on the second page
Zuko was raised by Iroh and Ursa. Ozai did very little parenting.
And we barely know anything about either of those characters.
That sounds like a positive to me.
Su is hardly to blame for that one.
Su cares for her family more than for anything else and despite being worried about her she let Opal go, I wouldn't call that narcissism. Sure, she was kind of an asshole when she was younger but in the end she turned out pretty alright.
JadedWriter
Member
But you're acting like Zuko hasn't been shaped in any way by the shit that Ozai did to him, which you and me both know isn't the case. Zuko got a lot of his morals and values from Ursa and Iroh though, but a lot of what he did was because he was seeking Ozai's approval.
She cares for her family a lot, which is true, but she's hyper controlling in a lot of ways. Opal was afraid that she'd disappoint Su by leaving Zaofu to train and better her life. The woman employed to truth seer to make sure nobody was lying to her, about anything. If anything that makes her come off as a bit paranoid. Su treated a girl with clear abandonment issues like a pet. She cares about her family, but it does blind her perspective a bit.
A lot of people are protective of their family, sometimes overprotective but that's not something that has to come from their childhood. And a lot of kids are constantly afraid of disappointing their parents too but that doesn't change the fact that Su didn't even make a huge fuss out of it when Opal told her about her decision. Nobody is perfect.
As far as Zuko is concerned Veelk is right. It's true that he has partially been shaped by his father but in the end he was surrounded by enough good people like Ursa and Iroh to overcome that (hell he did it by the end of the first series) and ultimately we have no idea what his children are like. Their appearances are way too brief to judge that.
JadedWriter
Member
You and Veelk are right, but I would like to think after some of the crap Zuko's family has pulled Iroh Jr. and Izumi wouldn't be in their positions if they were fucking insane. Then again, Bumi was a captain in the United Forces I believe and OG Bumi held a political position so I should probably shut my trap on that front.
I never said any such thing. He obviously was influenced. But far more of his life has been shaped by Iroh, something he admits himself. And by the end, he discards Ozai approval from his life, so Ozai's limited parenting just lead him to becoming less like him, as it is sometimes the cases with abused children.
I also disagree with the notion that a child seeking out parental approval is evidence of his parenting. I mean, in zuko's case it is, because Ozai specifically set up a meritocracy based on strength, and actively demonstrated that Zuko doesn't get love from him unless he performs some feat. However, children who have never met their parents seek them out for approval, but you wouldn't call total absence from their life parenting. Ozai had very limited parenting in Zuko's life because he just set up this fucked up darwinistic system of approval, and if the children didn't meet his standards, then he just ignored them.
Zuko's upbringing was such in a way that he actively refused to be like Ozai by the end, which for the purposes of parenting, just mean that Ozai failed since his child became the opposite of what he desired and intended. By the end of the story, none of Ozai's parenting is in him anymore. Now, he simply remembers what Ursa and Iroh have taught him, while disregarding what Ozai has taught him. Functionally speaking, none of Ozai put into him exists in him anymore. So, whatever Ozai parented into him, Zuko removed. Influence is just historical, so yes, Ozai influenced Zuko, but parenting is the stuff that sticks in a child.
Look, I'm sorry, I know Toph's parenting is a meme here and the incident that was shown is clearly Toph doing a bad job, I don't deny that, but it's insane to say that a parent is the one who has complete or even near complete influence over who their child becomes (which automatically makes the 'Well, zuko ended up okay!" comment irrelevant) and frankly, the fact is that Suyin is by and large a ridiculously accomplished person given her accomplishments and that she has a good family. Is she narcisstic? Maybe, to an extent, but ffs, that's pretty normal for such high achievers. The problem is that because she's such a huge figure, even minor mistakes can lead to potentially significant consequences (her not taking control of the region is a defendable decision (not that it is defended in the show, but that it's defensible), but given that it has such huge influence, it lead to Kuvira and her campaign, something no one could have predicted either btw. Kuvira made the choice to go all dictator, it wasn't Suyin's machinations). And while Kuvira's character is a huge missed opportunity for the show, is it a wonder why Suyin gives no shits about her after years of military oppression, the betrayal of her family, and generally not being a good person? Meanwhile, Lin has legitimate grievance, I admit, but like Aang's kids hashing out their 'you were the favorite child' thing at age 50, it's tiring to see her hold this grudge well into her old age. I hate to say it, but one way or another, she should have dealt with it long before any of this.
If it makes you feel better, my fanfic Suyin is much more evil. But as far as canon goes, Toph isn't perfect, but if you're going to say that she's responsible for everything that Suyin and Lin do, then she comes out well into the black given they're pretty accomplished and Suyin is mostly a decent and stable person, because you can't cherry pick what they mess up on and lay that on Toph, but not the good they've made of themselves.
Oh. Well. It's kinda awkward if I get my victories before I drop my Veelk bombs. But yeah, I don't deny that Suyin fucked up or that Toph fucked up or that Lin is messed up. All these things are true. It''s just kind a blowing it out of proportion to constantly call Toph a shitty parent as if she was Ozai.
JadedWriter
Member
I have no problem attributing the good parts and success of Lin and Su to Toph and I honestly though I did. Going by your first statement then I'm going to assume that Azula turned out as messed up as she did was because she bought into Ozai's bullshit instead of learning how to reject it like Zuko did. Regarding Lin and her grudge holding I've been a sibling long enough to realize that they handle things very differently, but I will agree that Lin should've dropped her grievances years ago. I used to grow up thinking that my sister was treated better than me growing up, but in the long run it's something that I worked through in my early to mid 20's so Lin doesn't have much of an excuse on that one. Toph is a better parent than Ozai cause she actually had a hand in raising her kids. Ozai was just a dick, Ozai and Unalaq are in the same tier of shit parents, Toph ain't that bad, but she's still bad. If Lin had half a rock lodged in her head because that's how Toph decided to punish her then that would probably notch her up into that shit parent tier with those two.
Ozai would have been a good parent if either Zuko or Azula had been actual sociopaths like he was. I recently read a book by one, who commented that the best thing a sociopath could use in his or her upbringing is consistency, and Ozai provided that. It's just that they weren't, so the achievement based meritocracy wasn't the right fit. Azula, who succeeded at exploiting the system held out better than Zuko, so she bought into it and rejected alternatives (Iroh's open handed compassion, which Ozai's system rewarded her for as well) but, ultimately, she needed love as well, which Ozai wasn't capable of providing, which is why she broke.
With Toph....yeah, not perfect. The whole teenage phase was a mess, I don't deny it. I just don't buy into that Lin couldn't have managed her own issues by the time she hit 20. Suyin evidently did, and I just don't agree that she's as bad as you say she is. LoK doesn't do much characterization right, but Suyin having the blinders she has with the kind of achiever she is makes a lot of sense to me.
See I knew this was coming which was why I was keeping my comment rather short. I agree on all fronts, couldn't have put it better myself. And in the end hasn't every character worth a damn done something both in The Last Airbender and Korra where you were right to think "That was a pretty messed up thing to do". They fuck up, they make mistakes, they say dumb shit to the wrong person because, well, that's what people do but Toph has done a lot of good as well. It's not like she intentionally messed up her kids and as we see at the end she still cares a lot about them, something Ozai never did.
JadedWriter
Member
Su permanently scarred Lin and wasn't even that remorseful about it when she did it. She came off as "why am I even in this room?" Man so even Azula didn't even fully buy into Ozai's Kool Aid then. Dude was half ass if he couldn't even indoctrinate his own kids properly.
You can't 'buy into the koolaid' of being a sociopath if the brain formation isn't there....well, I mean, theoretically. There is a lot of uncertainty as to what contributes to ASD most, but it's believed a lot of it happens during the first few months of infancy, as most of the brain is formed very early on. Simple things, like if Ursa held both children often enough would have made a difference in developing empathy later in life. Azula showed signs of remorse and empathy long before her break, which suggested her amygdala and prefrontal cortex wasn't necessarily underdeveloped, likely Ursa's work. If she has that going for her, along with a few other parts of her brain, then she cannot be a true sociopath. In terms of growing up, she can learn to neglect those functions if the situation favors it and that would probably semipermanently dictate how she frames the world (for example, for the rest of her life, she'll probably be gauging things in terms of power, like she did with that guy she wanted to date), but her capacity for empathy is available for use, unlike Ozai which show classic signs of just being a sociopath via neurological impairment, or else he has disengaged those parts of his brain for so long that they've atrophied to the point of the same thing. He can't engage a system that isn't there (or unusable).
And yes, Suyin was an idiot teenager, but she regularly has apologized for that incident. If she still said she was in the right for what she did, that'd be another thing entirely, but her being a teenager and not apologizing, while wrong, is hardly the mark of evil.
JadedWriter
Member
Why does it seem like Ozai is the only one in his family that's actually a sociopath? Sozin didn't seem like that at all in the flash back episode. Maybe Azulon was like that?
Azulon is likely to be one, considering his idea of justice after Ozai suggested he take Iroh's place is to kill one of his children so that Ozai understands how it feels to lose a son (then again, considering that in itself is an attempt at empathy....then again, some sociopaths have been known to try to form an artificial morality leading to instances like this, so it's possible...honestly, I don't know, could go either way).
But ASD is actually pretty common. An estimated 1-6% of the population has it. In all likelihood, you've met atleast one person with it. It's just that we live in a society that doesn't allow for the exploitation of the weak to such a degree that we allow blatant murderers to go free (though it's still pretty bad). Most sociopaths just channel their tendencies in more productive ways and develop their own ethical boundaries to serve as morality shortcuts as compensation for lack of innate morality.
FeenixRising
Banned
I respect you Jaded.... multitasking between having a meaningful conversation with Lord Veelk here.
that is just talented.
....and talking to me via PMs about if Lin or Kuvira would top.
that is just talented.
JadedWriter
Member
If that's the case it makes some type of sense with it being a genetic disorder. It stemming from inbreeding would also be pretty interesting, but kids show. I wouldn't be surprised if somebody I knew was sociopathic considering the amount of crazies I've dealt with.
I'm holding a conversation between you, Lord Veelk and my girlfriend.
Icyflamez96
Member
I liked Veelk's rant about Kratos on gaming side
I didn't mean just you, I meant everyone. Your doctor or your fireman is likely to be a sociopath.
That's the big problem with ASD. It's very difficult to research properly, because the only sociopaths typically willing to work with scientists are in the prison population, but that doesn't give us data on functional ASD people. As a result, it's severely under researched and as a result overly villainized. Sociopaths aren't inherently monsters. Or crazies.
Fuck Kratos.
m_shortpants
Member
Damn I always miss these epic Veelks outside of this thread. Anyone got a link? I'd look myself but I'm on mobile.
To be fair Kratos is a huge baby who could really only be considered a 'good guy' in the first game and the prequels. Everything from 3 and onward was his fault. Like the crux of 2 was him being a huge baby.
No, he's a baby in the first game too. Refer to that post for explanation of why.
There is no point in the main trilogy that Kratos can be called anything else than an idiot assist that can't accept responsibility for his actions.
I can at least understand why he did what he did in the first game. The second game just made me confused why he was so angry. Considering it was apparent that the gods were bending over backwards to appase him and he still was pissing everyone off.
What's worse is that it wasn't like they just zapped him. They gave him plenty warning to stop.
The same was happening in the first game. The deal he agreed to was essentially enslavement which, while fucked up, does not preclude ares from having his family murdered. By the terms they agreed to, ares had done Kratos no wrong. That's the problem here: Kratos has no problem, before or after ares killing his family, with the butchery of war. He's just upset it happened to him, because it's only ever about him. He's okay killing other families wholesale, but when it happens to him, well that's just unfair. So there is no break in characterization. He's perfectly okay with adhering to the gods when it suits him, but the moment it doesn't... And he even blamed them for betraying him, the same way ares "betrayed" him when he had actually done no such thing. What ares did was just kill people Kratos didn't want dead, that's all, which isn't much of a statement when Kratos has such a low value of life.
Honestly I never really thought about it like that. Considering he probably was perfectly okay with killing people who obviously had no way of defending themselves. With that said, I think he is a huge asshole. And honestly he does everything for himself. Even his final act can be considered doing it for himself just to make himself feel better.
I go into it in the post Icy linked. There is no characterization of Kratos that makes sense except if you accept extremely old world morality that literally makes no sense to modern sensibilities, and that is definitely not the characterization that was intended.
JadedWriter
Member
Kratos needed to stop listening to Linkin Park.
He is a strange character that I often wonder what they were even doing to him. Almost everything that happens to him was his fault. Even more so in the later games, 3 being the biggest example. Of him destroying the entire world just to get is revenge on a guy that rightfully tried to kill him for being a massive jerk.
I also love how the third game tries to handwave it by saying the gods were infected. Which makes no sense since why did they wait until Kratos was acting like an ass to attack. It felt like a last minute save.
Everything Zeus said about him at the end of 3 was right.
Insanity is a tricky trope to get right. GoW 3 didn't, naturally. Basically, a genuine drama between the characters disappeared because the fear killed Zeus actual character before Kratos ever did his shit. It openly admits that Zeus has no real rationale for hating Kratos, he's just mad with fear, so the "crimes" that Kratos committed aren't a real factor. We end up with an inane conflict where Zeus hates Kratos because an magic evil force called writers contrivance makes him and Kratos hates Zeus for something that's not his fault.
FeenixRising
Banned
So.... are we adding "Fuck Kratos" to the thread cycle or....
FeenixRising
Banned
I really can't say I do honestly. He's just a character I use to beat things up, I could give a fuck less why.
GoW games go like this for me: Kratos yelling, level, boss encounter,QTE, Kratos yelling again... rinse and repeat.
I hate Kratos for 2 main reasons.
1. Shitty characterization - In my years of practicing story analysis, I have developed my techniques to be ones of dispassion. I can feel contempt or joy for a character, but those emotions are subdued and restrained for the purposes of critical examination, so bias doesn't blind me when I'm writing on a subject. Kratos was before I've perfected this, when my writing was driven by the same abandon that most posters use, rather than evaluating it based on narrative skill. Kratos is the only character that made me hate him early enough so that I just fucking loath the cunt whenever he is brought up. It's like a pavlovian reaction, I just want him to unexist every time he is brought up in my mind again. He's not just a shitty character, he is the shitty character that put me on the road to developing my analytical skills so I could point out every single fucking thing wrong with him that no one else seemed to see at the time.
2. QTE popularization - Action games like DMC and NG were and still are my favorite, and QTE's are a poison on them. So of course GoW popularized it in every action game, to the point that it's STILL inescapable today in some form. Even Bayonetta, a fantastic action game, has them. The only time I accept them is when they have been so modified as to not even be real QTE's anymore, like the overly long animation that is DMC4's DB or the cutting mechanic of MGR:R. When Bayonetta got Umbran Climax, it basically fulfills the same role as the QTE because you have this period where you are unstoppable, but the fact that the action doesn't completely stop so you can play demented simon says and instead you just keep playing as a superpowered form is a a godsend.
Basically, GoW ruined my life and I'll hate it forever.
1. Shitty characterization - In my years of practicing story analysis, I have developed my techniques to be ones of dispassion. I can feel contempt or joy for a character, but those emotions are subdued and restrained for the purposes of critical examination, so bias doesn't blind me when I'm writing on a subject. Kratos was before I've perfected this, when my writing was driven by the same abandon that most posters use, rather than evaluating it based on narrative skill. Kratos is the only character that made me hate him early enough so that I just fucking loath the cunt whenever he is brought up. It's like a pavlovian reaction, I just want him to unexist every time he is brought up in my mind again. He's not just a shitty character, he is the shitty character that put me on the road to developing my analytical skills so I could point out every single fucking thing wrong with him that no one else seemed to see at the time.
2. QTE popularization - Action games like DMC and NG were and still are my favorite, and QTE's are a poison on them. So of course GoW popularized it in every action game, to the point that it's STILL inescapable today in some form. Even Bayonetta, a fantastic action game, has them. The only time I accept them is when they have been so modified as to not even be real QTE's anymore, like the overly long animation that is DMC4's DB or the cutting mechanic of MGR:R. When Bayonetta got Umbran Climax, it basically fulfills the same role as the QTE because you have this period where you are unstoppable, but the fact that the action doesn't completely stop so you can play demented simon says and instead you just keep playing as a superpowered form is a a godsend.
Basically, GoW ruined my life and I'll hate it forever.
m_shortpants
Member
You know who I hate?
This smug motherfucker:
This smug motherfucker:
m_shortpants
Member
Now you all know my namesake too.
m_shortpants
Member
It's not my favorite Zelda game, but I'm not going to even start that discussion now.
Have you played Majora's Mask?
owned the 3ds copy for the last 2 months or whenever it came out. I'll start it once school finishes up, and I can power through wind waker and then get to it.
m_shortpants
Member
Ah, good stuff. Yeah I bought it and binged to the last 4th of the game, but stopped because I started a new job and got quite busy. Need to get around to finishing it. Definitely one of the best 3D ones IMO.
If it helps, I really liked OoT on the 3DS as well as Twilight Princess. However, I played Twilight Princess like 10 years ago at this point (or whenever it came out on the Wii), so my memory is patchy. I know it has a very slow beginning, but I remember liking everything (or mostly so) afterwards.
Windwaker, from what I've played so far, is pretty cool too.
I love this remix of the first island's theme.
Edit: Oh, and Link Between Worlds. In terms of story, I think this one might be the best one.
I replayed the 3D Zelda games a year or two ago except Skyward Sword because I didn't have a Wii and couldn't be bothered to buy a Wiimote. Plus I heard it was shit.
I stopped playing TP halfway through because it does get really slow. I only went back and finished it after a few months. It was still a great game though, despite that one problem.
I stopped playing TP halfway through because it does get really slow. I only went back and finished it after a few months. It was still a great game though, despite that one problem.
m_shortpants
Member
Nah, I wouldn't call it shit. Veelk here disagrees but let's not rekindle that debate.
TP I played when it came out like 10 years ago. I honestly did not like it as much as OoT, MM, or WW. Thought the overworld was too big and too empty. Didn't like the wolf stuff. Wasn't a huge fan of the visuals. And I thought the world often times didn't react to the story. That said, I liked the plot and how it was darker than the typical Zelda. Although MM is still the darkest out of all of them. There's so much subtle fridge horror in MM.
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