Support NeoGAF

[Johnlenham]

I dont really keep up with politics of the labour party,but for alot of people i know they look at corbyn as someone with integrity and you actually believe the things he says because hes been (seemingly) pushing this stuff for 20+ years. Where as other seemingly U turn back and fourth.
No other politician, let alone a labour one even comes close to being believable by comparison. All just seemingly itching to stab each other in the back.

Someone pretty bloody spectacular would have to come out of the woodwork with some real gleaming policy's to get me to vote for them tbh.

edit.Oh god top of the page

 

[zorlaczerohero]

It's all a spiral of shit that goes nowhere, the party is never going to be unified under him. At the end of the day, if Corbyn took his responsibilities as leader of the opposition seriously, he would have resigned straight after the vote of no confidence. Unfortunately he does not care about offering an alternative government and is showing utter contempt for the most fundamental role of the Labour Party in parliament. What he's doing is simply childish and the behaviour of a student politician.

None of this makes any sense. He is the result of the Labour party membership. Are you really implying that an MP is more important than a party member? The Labour party membership wants Corbyn, the weakening canker sores of Blairite labour don't. Get over it, Labour is shifting left. That means actual opposition rather than diet tory.

What fucks me off is why do people argue, just go vote fucking tory if you don't want to vote for a left Labour. Blair compromised the whole labour movement with his diet Thatcherite cuntishness. ANY actual labour supporter should stand behind a swing to the left. But now it seems the middle class who joined labour under the cock womble Blair want "their" party back from the dirty commie scum. Well I want my party back from the middle class wankers who think sound bites and spin are more important than integrity and actually changing the nature of politics in the UK.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

I dont really keep up with politics of the labour party,but for alot of people i know they look at corbyn as someone with integrity and you actually believe the things he says because hes been (seemingly) pushing this stuff for 20+ years. Where as other seemingly U turn back and fourth.
No other politician, let alone a labour one even comes close to being believable by comparison. All just seemingly itching to stab each other in the back.

Someone pretty bloody spectacular would have to come out of the woodwork with some real gleaming policy's to get me to vote for them tbh.

edit.Oh god top of the page

Where was his integrity during the referendum though. :/

 

[Wrestlemania]

The Labour party membership wants Corbyn

Do they still want him to be leader? Genuine question - have there been any polls to indicate if the membership still want him to be the leader or is this just based on him winning the last leadership election?

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Do they still want him to be leader? Genuine question - have there been any polls to indicate if the membership still want him to be the leader or is this just based on him winning the last leadership election?

Among party members:

May 72% Corbyn doing well, 27% badly; 60% wanted him to lead the party
June 51% Corbyn doing well, 48% badly; 41% want him to lead the party

However he would still beat any named candidate including Jarvis (although no one knows that much about him right now, so it's more corbyn vs generic labour mp)

 

[Randdalf]

I wonder if they'll try and change the party rules to the Tory ones, such that the Labour MPs select the two candidates who will vie for the votes of the party membership.

 

[Johnlenham]

Where was his integrity during the referendum though. :/

Was that "I dont like the EU but I know its far worse for the country out of it, than in"

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Was that "I dont like the EU but I know its far worse for the country out of it, than in"

That was where he sabotaged the remain campaign because he didn't want to stay in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36633238

If he didn't want to be part of it, he should have let someone else helm the official labour remain campaign and stepped aside.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Its the law of diminishing returns at work. Labour can't move any further to the right from where they were before the election without alienating their left wing.
Even if they did it its debatable it would get a lot of people to defect from the Tories.
Lots of politician now rubbing their hands now thinking they can form a party to pander to the pro-EU 48% and win an election thanks to them but its going to take more than an pro-EU stance to unite these people. I doubt a lot of young Remainers would vote for pro-EU Tory-lite.

Many people don't want Tory or Diet Tory and so aren't bothering to vote, an actual left-wing party may draw some of them out. I think you understood that, you're just being facetious.

I get that but is there any reason to think that these people actually exist? Again, the last election saw roughly the same percentage of people voting for Labour and Conservative combined as is typical, and the voter turnout was the highest in almost 20 years. Blair's first election had a huge turnout, but that was to vote for Blair. The only grass roots uprising is from UKIP who, whilst taking a lot of working class votes, is hard to argue they're a vanguard of the people. As Crab has said, there's no reason to think that the people failing to vote are more left wing than the populace at large and, as I never tire from saying, Blair's the only Labour leader in 40 years to actually win an election - so again, where are all these left wingers hiding? Would they really rather have a Tory party that apparantly kills disabled people and kids rather than Tony "Double spending on the NHS and Education, national minimum wage, surestart, civil partnership" Blair and that's why they don't come out to vote for Tory-lites like Ed "Socialist Academic" Miliband?

Pull the other one.

 

[Hazzuh]

Most people aren't particularly politics, let alone left-wing. 50+% of the British public identify as "neither left or right wing". 17% identify as somewhat left wing and 5% identify as strongly left wing. That clearly isn't a winning coalition for Corbyn.

Hell, even 47% of Labour voters identify as "neither left nor right wing".

 

[Huw_Dawson]

If there was space in UK politics for a hard-left party, TUSC would do a lot better than it currently does.

If the NEC votes to screw Corbyn, I am going to go and get a celebratory bottle of whiskey for sanity and reason returning to the Labour Party.

And yeah, the centre is where its at in British politics. That's been the case forba very long time.

 

[Moosichu]

That was where he sabotaged the remain campaign because he didn't want to stay in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36633238

If he didn't want to be part of it, he should have let someone else helm the official labour remain campaign and stepped aside.

That what he did do tho I believe. He put Alan Johnson in charge of the campaign.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Labour having a seperare campaigning team should never have happened to begin with. There was no reason to object to BSIE.

Labour's remain campaign was weak and uninspiring.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Labour having a seperare campaigning team should never have happened to begin with. There was no reason to object to BSIE.

Labour's remain campaign was weak and uninspiring.

There really was. Sharing a platform with the Conservatives would have Scotland'd them in England and Wales.

 

[Kurtofan]

Labour having a seperare campaigning team should never have happened to begin with. There was no reason to object to BSIE.

Labour's remain campaign was weak and uninspiring.

Yeah campaigning with Cameron and co would have worked wonders with disaffected labour voters... people love when politicians do that shit, don't they?

 

[Maledict]

Yeah campaigning with Cameron and co would have worked wonders with disaffected labour voters... people love when politicians do that shit.

Focus group testing showed that putting Corbyn and Cameron on a platform together had a really good effect on undecided voters. Scotland isn't England.

 

[phisheep]

None of this makes any sense. He is the result of the Labour party membership. Are you really implying that an MP is more important than a party member?

What's important really is voters. And to the extent that MPs are more representative of voters than the membership is, then I think the answer is yes.

The Labour party membership wants Corbyn, the weakening canker sores of Blairite labour don't. Get over it, Labour is shifting left. That means actual opposition rather than diet tory.

What that seems to mean in practice is wholly useless opposition. It isn't at all clear what the Labour party is for - in the strict sense of what is it for as opposed to what it is against.

As a thought experiment, try to define Labour policy without reference to the Conservatives - it isn't easy to do.

What fucks me off is why do people argue, just go vote fucking tory if you don't want to vote for a left Labour.

Given recent events, I think this is where I say to be careful what you wish for.

 

[pigeon]

There really was. Sharing a platform with the Conservatives would have Scotland'd them in England and Wales.

As opposed to what's happening to them now.

I absolutely blame Corbyn's unwillingness to cooperate with the pro-Remain Tories for contributing to the failure of Remain, and I'm surprised you don't.

 

[Kurtofan]

Focus group testing showed that putting Corbyn and Cameron on a platform together had a really good effect on undecided voters. Scotland isn't England.

focus group testing...

That was where he sabotaged the remain campaign because he didn't want to stay in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36633238

If he didn't want to be part of it, he should have let someone else helm the official labour remain campaign and stepped aside.

Ah yes "sources" like the "sources" that clamored he voted to leave?

Seems like more bullshit to undermine him, like was done from day zero.

 

[PJV3]

As opposed to what's happening to them now.

I absolutely blame Corbyn's unwillingness to cooperate with the pro-Remain Tories for contributing to the failure of Remain, and I'm surprised you don't.

I think Alistair Campbell was fair about it, people weren't listening and wanted to kick the government in the balls.

Corbyn didn't really matter.

 

[Hazzuh]

He refused to coordinate with anyone, not just the tories.

The letter, written by both Mr Owadally, who is a Labour member, and Wales Stronger In Europe's head of press Alex Kalinik, said: "We were consistently given short shrift when we requested visits from Labour figures via the Labour Party in London.

"Our political champions from the Labour Party were often unable to get hold of research or rebuttal materials from Labour HQ to help make their case.

"In the end we often coordinated press for Labour figures because the Labour Party was not willing to do so - but these were less powerful because they were not from the official party infrastructure.

"Most strikingly felt of all was the complete disinterest from Jeremy Corbyn.

"As leader of our party, he should have thrown the full weight of his resources - as leader, as the leader's office, and as the steward of the party itself - into the Labour campaign for a Remain vote, but this did not happen.

 

[War Peaceman]

He refused to coordinate with anyone, not just the tories.

He's clearly unable to run a political party.

 

[Kurtofan]

I don't trust anything said about Jeremy Corbyn coming from the Labour party at this time, they planned to oust him and prepared to do so while he was campaigning to remain, they are utter hypocrites.

 

[remist]

If the NEC decides to backdoor him out of the ballot in opposition to the wishes of the membership, do the membership have any type of recourse? Like some type of impeachment of MPs.

This whole thing thing looks extremely shady from an outsiders perspective.

 

[ElNarez]

As opposed to what's happening to them now.

I absolutely blame Corbyn's unwillingness to cooperate with the pro-Remain Tories for contributing to the failure of Remain, and I'm surprised you don't.

It would've been electoral suicide to do this, because it's playing to UKIP's rhetoric of the out of touch political elites working together to keep the common man down to a T. Like, the whole reason Leave ended up so high in what used to be the working class Labour strongholds is because a decade of trying to court the center and years of accepting austerity but doing so with a really disapproving face have made the two government parties indistinguishable from one another, so the only option for change is the guy saying you can take your country and your independanceback.

 

[Hazzuh]

If the NEC decides to backdoor him out of the ballot in opposition to the wishes of the membership, do the membership have any type of recourse? Like some type of impeachment OF MPs.

This whole thing thing looks extremely shady from an outsiders perspective.

The NEC don't decide if he is on the ballot or not, they decide if he needs to seek the support of MPs.

 

[kmag]

None of this makes any sense. He is the result of the Labour party membership. Are you really implying that an MP is more important than a party member? The Labour party membership wants Corbyn, the weakening canker sores of Blairite labour don't. Get over it, Labour is shifting left. That means actual opposition rather than diet tory.

What fucks me off is why do people argue, just go vote fucking tory if you don't want to vote for a left Labour. Blair compromised the whole labour movement with his diet Thatcherite cuntishness. ANY actual labour supporter should stand behind a swing to the left. But now it seems the middle class who joined labour under the cock womble Blair want "their" party back from the dirty commie scum. Well I want my party back from the middle class wankers who think sound bites and spin are more important than integrity and actually changing the nature of politics in the UK.

Really hard to offer legit opposition when your carry absolutely no electoral threat.

 

[phisheep]

From the BBC liveblog

The Labour Party has suspended the entire constituency party in Gorton, Manchester, following allegations of infighting, bullying and voting irregularities.

Maybe they'll suspend their own NEC next?

 

[PJV3]

I kinda hope Corbyn takes legal action to get on the ballot, it would be probably be the final nail in his coffin and we get a proper election.

 

[ElNarez]

Really hard to offer legit opposition when your carry absolutely no electoral threat.

real hard to mount a challenge to Tory rule when the PLP wants your head from day minus one

 

[Moosichu]

Really hard to offer legit opposition when your carry absolutely no electoral threat.

But how can you provide an electoral threat if you turn against your own membership? I don't think Jeremy Corbyn should be leading the labour party, but I know this is the absolute worst way to find ensure leader. Labour is on a path to destroy itself.

 

[CyclopsRock]

real hard to mount a challenge to Tory rule when the PLP wants your head from day minus one

Yes, it is, which is why he needs to go. This isn't Sports Day, it isn't his "turn" to be leader; political parties are defined by their pursuit and acquisition of power. It doesn't matter if his obstacle is internal or external if it's insurmountable.

 

[Ushojax]

real hard to mount a challenge to Tory rule when the PLP wants your head from day minus one

I'm sure it is hard, impossible in fact. So why is he carrying on? He does not have some divine right to lead the party. He cannot do the job.

He doesn't seem to understand that Labour doesn't actually have any power, his rhetoric isn't going to actually help anyone. To affect change you need to get into government, and the polls all show he is doing a terrible job of convincing the electorate to vote Labour.

 

[kmag]

real hard to mount a challenge to Tory rule when the PLP wants your head from day minus one

Doesn't matter what the excuses are. He's not moved the dial at all, which given the realities of the political cycle in this country means he's toast. Miliband had less sniping (although the awkward squad including messers Corbyn and McDonald were still giving him grief), probably worse press (the press have been a tad distracted over Corbyn's first year) and was at 40% in the polls, gaining seats in the local elections and generally managing to heal the wounds of what was a very divisive leadership election (the MP's and membership supported David and the unions broke for Ed). It wasn't enough for Ed, by comparison Corbyn is nowhere, static polling (meaning they're falling miles behind their 2015 GE performance) and the first loss of local election seats from an opposition party since 1985.

Like it or lump it, leading the parliamentary party is the main part of the job. It's a parliamentary democracy after all.

 

[Kurtofan]

I think people here have a very twisted vision of what is electoral suicide and what isn't, why do people think miliband 2.0 would work better than in 2015?

I really liked Kinnock talking about electability though

 

[dumbo]

If the NEC decides to backdoor him out of the ballot in opposition to the wishes of the membership, do the membership have any type of recourse?

AFAIK any MP with the support of ~51 other labour MPs/MEP can appear on the ballot paper. This includes Corbyn, and the NEC cannot block this.

The NEC is only deciding whether a sitting leader can bypass that process, and get onto the ballot paper without the "democratic support" of MPs.

So, logically the backdoor would be to allow someone onto the ballot paper without due process, hence if the NEC block Corbyn they are more correctly "closing a backdoor".

 

[remist]

The NEC don't decide if he is on the ballot or not, they decide if he needs to seek the support of MPs.

As I understand it, forcing him to get support from MPs instead of automatically being on the ballot, would be a change in precedent and policy clearly meant to avoid actually having to beat him in an election.

I think thats shitty so I'm wondering if there any mechanism by which the membership can assert more control over their party.

 

[gutter_trash]

He refused to coordinate with anyone, not just the tories.

his ''Holier than thou'' attitude makes him unfit to lead the country no less a major party

 

[Sean C]

When Corbyn ran, I was unsympathetic to people claiming he would automatically doom the Labour Party or anything like that. There's no reason to think that a politician could not yank the Overton Window in the UK noticeably leftward, with the right strategy.

However, the past year has left me fairly certain that Corbyn is not the man to do this. He is not a good communicator at all, and has not demonstrated any capacity to speak to people who don't already agree with him.

Things were always going to be tense, seeing as he took power over the objections of most of the PLP, and is noticeably to the left of them. To an extent, he and his supporters are right that these groups were never going to be all that receptive to him. But political parties like success, and I think Corbyn could have made headway with the more Blairite groups in Labour if he was showing signs that he could be successful electorally, that being the thing that political parties care about most. He hasn't done that.

 

[Ushojax]

I think people here have a very twisted vision of what is electoral suicide and what isn't, why do people think miliband 2.0 would work better than in 2015?

As long as the SNP are a force in Scotland, Labour are never going to win a majority anyway. The current struggle is about regaining some credibility with the electorate and going from there.

 

[ElNarez]

Yes, it is, which is why he needs to go. This isn't Sports Day, it isn't his "turn" to be leader; political parties are defined by their pursuit and acquisition of power. It doesn't matter if his obstacle is internal or external if it's insurmountable.

Then what's the point of having an election, if the PLP can just choose to push whoever the members elect out?

Like, it's not Divine Right. He did indisputably win the leadership election. In a landslide, even. You're saying it doesn't matter because the PLP have made his job untenable. If you think the PLP should run the party, I think you need to say it clearly.

 

[Hazzuh]

As I understand it, forcing him to get support from MPs instead of automatically being on the ballot, would be a change in precedent and policy clearly meant to avoid actually having to beat him in an election.

The only precedent is when Benn challenged Kinnock in 1988 and Kinnock sought MPs support. Corbyn actually helped coordinate Benn's challenge

 

[Maledict]

I think people here have a very twisted vision of what is electoral suicide and what isn't, why do people think miliband 2.0 would work better than in 2015?

I really liked Kinnock talking about electability though

You do understan d that right now, after a year of Corbyn, Labours polling is showing them losing another 100+ seats if a GE were held soon? That no opposition has ever been this low in the polls at this stage and gone on to win? Ed Miliband was EIGHT points ahead of where corbyn is at this point in the cycle right now. so yes, the party would absolutely prefer another Ed because Jeremy Corbyn is electoral suicide.

And don't blame the party plotting. Blair won massive victories whilst his own chancellor was plotting against him in a way that makes the Corbyn stuff (up until now) look amateur hour. Ed had far worse during his time as well. Party plotting doesn't make you this far behind int he polls, nor does it explain how he is so stunningly bad at communicating with anyone outside his small, vocal supporter base.

 

[Maledict]

As long as the SNP are a force in Scotland, Labour are never going to win a majority anyway. The current struggle is about regaining some credibility with the electorate and going from there.

Labour won a majority in 1997, 2001 and 2005 and they didn't need a single Scottish seat in any of those elections. The idea that Labour is un-electable without Scotland simply isn't true.

 

[CyclopsRock]

From the Telegraph:

"Team Corbyn furious – moderate lawyer attending NEC giving “point by point rebuttal” of their legal advice. No one doing opposite."

 

[Goodlife]

The Europe thing is a red herring.

This coup was planned before it and he bought between 60 and 75 % of labour supporters with him, depending on what source you read.

He impressed me on Europe, as he was one of the few politician's to come out and say it's not black and white, it's complicated, Europe needs to change, but it's best be so that from the inside.
And calling out the immigration wasn't putting a strain on public services, it was austerity that was doing that.

Made a refreshing change from the stuff coming out of both remain and leave

 

[Ushojax]

Then what's the point of having an election, if the PLP can just choose to push whoever the members elect out?

Like, it's not Divine Right. He did indisputably win the leadership election. In a landslide, even. You're saying it doesn't matter because the PLP have made his job untenable. If you think the PLP should run the party, I think you need to say it clearly.

In the real world of politics you need the confidence of party members and MPs to effectively lead the party. In a technical sense Corbyn might be within his rights to refuse to go but what purpose is it serving? Without a shadow cabinet he cannot effectively oppose the government. With a divided party he will have zero credibility as a potential prime minister. His own behaviour and style of leadership have made his position untenable. Why is Corbyn any different from Michael Howard, IDS, etc? He had his turn, he's been shit, now it's time to go. He is not bigger than the party, no matter how monstrous Momentum becomes.

Labour won a majority in 1997, 2001 and 2005 and they didn't need a single Scottish seat in any of those elections. The idea that Labour is un-electable without Scotland simply isn't true.

That was a long time ago, realistically they are going to lose control of some of their marginal English seats if an election were called this year irrespective of the leader.

 

[Azzanadra]

As opposed to what's happening to them now.

I absolutely blame Corbyn's unwillingness to cooperate with the pro-Remain Tories for contributing to the failure of Remain, and I'm surprised you don't.

Of course. It was't Cameron's fault for allowing it in the first place, nor UKIP's and Boris' for inflaming the anti-immigrating sentiment. It was all Corbyn, he's been the mastermind all along!

I mean why would he vehemently support the EU? He was being true to himself, he's not going to just fall in love with it but say "look, its far from perfect, but its better to remain than leave".

 

[CyclopsRock]

Then what's the point of having an election, if the PLP can just choose to push whoever the members elect out?

Like, it's not Divine Right. He did indisputably win the leadership election. In a landslide, even. You're saying it doesn't matter because the PLP have made his job untenable. If you think the PLP should run the party, I think you need to say it clearly.

They do run it. They are 100% the most important people. Jimmy McThreePounds in Liverpool and Councillor Owain Trot-Jones in Camarthanshire's opinion is orders of magnitude less important than the PLP. This is because the leader doesn't need to work with those two people, he does need to work with the PLP. The leader should galvanise support but, ultimately, everyone in the PLP was elected to represent their constituents. If Corbyn cannot galvanise these people, it's no different to if May can't galvanise the Tory back benches - she couldn't function as a PM, the government would fall. The opposition *can't* technically fall, but all the membership support in the world doesn't change the fact that right now we, somehow, have a bizarre form of 1 party system because the opposition have no effective whip.

 

[Hazzuh]

To people who support Corbyn but concede he isn't going to win at the next general election.. why not just vote for another left-wing party like the SWP? There are plenty of left-wing parties where you don't have to compromise on anything and you which you don't have to share with people who you hate like Blair. I really don't understand what the difference will be between a Labour recreated in Corbyn's image and the SWP.