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[Dahbomb]

Don't forget all the nerfs she is getting, which are much, much bigger than her buffs.

Her self transformation hyper and loss of side exchange TAC removing meter are the two biggest buffs she got that completely override any mechanics nerfs she may have gotten. The main nerf she got in the mechanics was the non mashable lights but you even overrided that with the 15% increased feathers.

Phoenix in this patch is WAY better than in Ultimate, like its not even close. The fact that people aren't going to be going for as many TODs and resets instead makes Phoenix a much more viable option for teams especially with the mega nerfs that Vergil is getting.

 

[onionfrog]

Her self transformation hyper and loss of side exchange TAC removing meter are the two biggest buffs she got that completely override any mechanics nerfs she may have gotten. The main nerf she got in the mechanics was the non mashable lights but you even overrided that with the 15% increased feathers.

Phoenix in this patch is WAY better than in Ultimate, like its not even close. The fact that people aren't going to be going for as many TODs and resets instead makes Phoenix a much more viable option for teams especially with the mega nerfs that Vergil is getting.

I'm inclined to agree with you on this one Dahbomb.
The overhead buff does seem like it could be too much,

Changing TAC's gets rid of two reliable options for preventing phoenix from getting to level 5. (Japanese Tech and the TAC air-dash glitch (Zero Morrigan and Hsienko had this IIRC))

 

[Karsticles]

Her self transformation hyper and loss of side exchange TAC removing meter are the two biggest buffs she got that completely override any mechanics nerfs she may have gotten. The main nerf she got in the mechanics was the non mashable lights but you even overrided that with the 15% increased feathers.

Phoenix in this patch is WAY better than in Ultimate, like its not even close. The fact that people aren't going to be going for as many TODs and resets instead makes Phoenix a much more viable option for teams especially with the mega nerfs that Vergil is getting.

Not being able to steamroll entire teams makes her far less viable. Non-mashable lights is not made up for by a 15% feather travel distance increase. It helps, but mashable feathers makes so many of her matchups 10-0.

Plus, Phoenix's biggest enemy is still intact: snapbacks. She will still die from a touch, and players are still going to snap her in.

 

[Dahbomb]

Basically Phoenix as a character is compared to Strider and Vergil as these 3 generally compete for similar spots on a team (as in anchor characters). Vergil pretty much lost his Spiral Sword DHC combos so he is not going to be a #2 anymore. Vergil also lost cross up Dimension Slash, lost OS Helm Breaker, lost st.S cancel after Helm Breaker, lost multiplicative buff stacking, lost safe on block Rapid Slash as anchor, had his Spiral Sword cost doubled (meaning even without XF he's a worse anchor) and was hit by the same XF nerfs as Phoenix/Strider (less duration and damage). Strider sort of got better but the XF nerfs hurts him the most because unlike Dark Phoenix/Vergil he has to actually do full combos to kill characters even in XF3. The combination of higher health of opponent plus worse XF3 hurts him the most.

With overall damage of characters reduced (like Zero, Viper, Vergil, Doom, Spencer etc) plus increased overall health the fall back strategy of Phoenix makes a ton more sense in this meta game. You will be going for more resets anyway, might as well use that meter for something. The main reason people don't pick Phoenix now is because its easier to snowball with Zero but we specifically nerfed these types of snowball characters and strats.

Its not that the overhead change would "break" her or make her OP (if she was OP in this patch then the overhead wouldn't be the main reason)... the overhead change is in the category of just being plain excessive. It basically crosses the threshold of "can be blocked on reaction if you are looking for it" to "hard to block on reaction" and with something that is harder to block on reaction that means she has more opportunity to open someone up and gain that precious 5 meter she needs to snowball the team.

Not being able to steamroll entire teams makes her far less viable.

She is going to be a far better steam roller than Vergil and Strider. Her XF values are still far better than those two. Even right now in XF2 she can steam roll 1.1 million health characters which would be around the average health of characters in the patched game. Basically the steam roll potency of Phoenix is going to decrease by the level that it decreased from Vanilla to Ultimate... are you going to say that Phoenix can't steam roll teams in Ultimate?

Phoenix being weak to snap back is a bad excuse for defending the characters strength when Vergil is way weaker to snap back due to more limited incoming options. It's the same fall back people used to defend her in Vanilla. Snap Back doesn't guarantee her death.

Phoenix's strength as an anchor character and why people like FChamp/Neo still play her is that she enables you to have 4 characters on the team at the price of meter. That is a big thing in the game even in the patched version, guaranteeing more hits that the opponent has to make is what makes her a good pick in some situations. No matter how good Vergil/Strider are as anchor... they don't get to have two lives.

 

[Karsticles]

Crazy idea: what if we had everything ready to go for Capcom Cup next week? It would be a great time to link to the patch notes during a stream and apply pressure to Capcom...

Dahbomb, clearly we don't agree on this - I shouldn't have taken up the argument again.

Edit: Just watched Neo's Phoenix get snapped in twice and die, haha.

 

[Dahbomb]

I already said that I am putting a deadline on this for Wednesday. So Frantic/Zissou have to say their stuff and if they don't get by Wednesday it gets releases anyway.

Oh and Combofiend just made a hint.....

 

[Karsticles]

I already said that I am putting a deadline on this for Wednesday. So Frantic/Zissou have to say their stuff and if they don't get by Wednesday it gets releases anyway.

Oh and Combofiend just made a hint.....

Sounds good to me. I will make the changes you and Onionfrog suggested this weekend.

 

[biosnake20]

not yet

 

[Dahbomb]

In the hypothetical scenario of the patch existing and Combofiend's hint was true, he made the hint towards Yipes' comment about single player game. Now does that mean specific Zero nerfs or could that also mean a change on incoming mechanics (like delay wake up)?

In any case since the chances of this went up by 0.1% I am going to add some extra character notations where I generally give an outline of where the character generally is compared to others along with strengths/weaknesses. Maybe Capcom or someone else can come up with better solutions based on the outline.

I say this because that's what Combofiend looks for in balance changes. He likes improving on character weaknesses while nerfing stuff that people hate playing against all the while not taking away options.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Watch Capcom just nerf everything to shit. I have about 0 faith in them balancing this game well

 

[Dahbomb]

Yea oddly enough the reality of a patch might lead to things that end up being worse.

It also depends on what Capcom considers the baseline for a "balanced" character in Marvel. Like they consider Ryu in SF4 balanced hence characters better than him are being nerfed while characters worse than him are being buffed with Ryu himself staying virtually the same.

For me personally examples of balanced characters include Nova, Hawkeye, Viewtiful Joe, Dante and MODOK. They have a lot of strengths but weaknesses too. They don't excel at everything and they don't make another character irrelevant because they do everything better than them. Yeah these characters need some tweaks but its mostly parity changes and glitch fixes or oddity fixes (like MODOKs durability on his HPB). Now mind you I think Nova is top 10 but the reason he is top 10 is because he has synergies with other top tiers AND he has good match ups against other top tiers. However every character can beat him resonably, he doesn't have 9-1 blow ups.

If Capcom's baseline for a balanced character is Iron Man or Sentinel that is fucking terrible. So many characters would have to be nerfed to bring them to a point where they don't shit on Sentinel or make Iron Man absolete. Capcom would fucking gut Magneto to him and IM comparable.

 

[enzo_gt]

For the minions:

Yipes: "You know what sucks; see I love the fact that in Ultra, you kinda stop the one player game. We can't do it."
Combofiend: "...not yet."

At 6:06:00.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I would honestly rather them leave the game alone than try to fix it. I really only have two issues as far as characters go. Spiral swords durability and Zero lightning being soft knockdown. If they just changed those two things along with wonky system mechanics, I'd be a happy camper. I'd rather see everyone just brought up to the top tiers than to see the top characters get butchered

 

[Karsticles]

Yea oddly enough the reality of a patch might lead to things that end up being worse.

It also depends on what Capcom considers the baseline for a "balanced" character in Marvel. Like they consider Ryu in SF4 balanced hence characters better than him are being nerfed while characters worse than him are being buffed with Ryu himself staying virtually the same.

For me personally examples of balanced characters include Nova, Hawkeye, Viewtiful Joe, Dante and MODOK. They have a lot of strengths but weaknesses too. They don't excel at everything and they don't make another character irrelevant because they do everything better than them. Yeah these characters need some tweaks but its mostly parity changes and glitch fixes or oddity fixes (like MODOKs durability on his HPB). Now mind you I think Nova is top 10 but the reason he is top 10 is because he has synergies with other top tiers AND he has good match ups against other top tiers. However every character can beat him resonably, he doesn't have 9-1 blow ups.

If Capcom's baseline for a balanced character is Iron Man or Sentinel that is fucking terrible. So many characters would have to be nerfed to bring them to a point where they don't shit on Sentinel or make Iron Man absolete. Capcom would fucking gut Magneto to him and IM comparable.

Agreed on all accounts.

I would honestly rather them leave the game alone than try to fix it. I really only have two issues as far as characters go. Spiral swords durability and Zero lightning being soft knockdown. If they just changed those two things along with wonky system mechanics, I'd be a happy camper. I'd rather see everyone just brought up to the top tiers than to see the top characters get butchered

I have a lot of confidence in Capcom if ComboFiend is a big part of the decision-making process. USFIV looks like it is heading towards the best iteration of the game yet. Pretty much every player is excited about his/her character's changes. Niitsuma might not even be involved this time around. I don't even know if Ono is involved in USFIV. Capcom took a ton of feedback from Street Fighter players for USFIV. Since it's the end of the console generation, the patches can risk going more on player feedback than developer intent, since they aren't trying to be big sellers so much as they are trying to keep people satiated until a next-gen fighter can be made.

 

[Dahbomb]

I would honestly rather them leave the game alone than try to fix it. I really only have two issues as far as characters go. Spiral swords durability and Zero lightning being soft knockdown. If they just changed those two things along with wonky system mechanics, I'd be a happy camper. I'd rather see everyone just brought up to the top tiers than to see the top characters get butchered

That's pretty much what our changelist is doing though! The buff to nerf ratio is 9 to 1.

I think compared to Vanilla Marvel Capcom has more data now. Its almost 3 years of data versus a few months. I don't think we are going to see a She Hulk situation again ESPECIALLY with Combofiend on top of it.

I also think that they have done a pretty good job with USF4 so far. Their mind set is right and so is their work ethics. Marvel having half the amount of location tests as SF4 would result in a much superior product.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

That's pretty much what our changelist is doing though! The buff to nerf ratio is 9 to 1.

I think compared to Vanilla Marvel Capcom has more data now. Its almost 3 years of data versus a few months. I don't think we are going to see a She Hulk situation again ESPECIALLY with Combofiend on top of it.

I also think that they have done a pretty good job with USF4 so far. Their mind set is right and so is their work ethics. Marvel having half the amount of location tests as SF4 would result in a much superior product.

You guys put a lot of work in and did a good job and I respect that, but there's a lot of shit that I just don't like and it doesn't even involve characters I use or even like. Hell I hate Vergil but you guys fucked him pretty hard. He would probably still be pretty good, but I'd drop him if I played him. My number one priority is don't piss people off, and I'm pretty sure all those nerfs would.
I play Felicia, Chris, Sentinel, and others that got very buffed and I'm still not sure I'd enjoy this. I just can't stand nerfing that much. I just hate seeing characters fall from grace, since it's happened to me many times. I don't wish that on anyone.

Obviously we aren't gonna agree, but yeah that's how I feel. Again, you guys did a great job, but I feel like I wouldn't enjoy the final product. Weird thing is that my entire style is how the game would be played. I play a very reset heavy style. Yeah even with Chris

 

[Karsticles]

You guys put a lot of work in and did a good job and I respect that, but there's a lot of shit that I just don't like and it doesn't even involve characters I use or even like. Hell I hate Vergil but you guys fucked him pretty hard. He would probably still be pretty good, but I'd drop him if I played him. My number one priority is don't piss people off, and I'm pretty sure all those nerfs would.
I play Felicia, Chris, Sentinel, and others that got very buffed and I'm still not sure I'd enjoy this. I just can't stand nerfing that much. I just hate seeing characters fall from grace, since it's happened to me many times. I don't wish that on anyone.

Obviously we aren't gonna agree, but yeah that's how I feel. Again, you guys did a great job, but I feel like I wouldn't enjoy the final product. Weird thing is that my entire style is how the game would be played. I play a very reset heavy style. Yeah even with Chris

Dahbomb is the biggest Vergil fanboy on GAF. Do you really think he would let us kill the character?

The only Vergil change I feel iffy about is Helm Breaker not canceling into s.S.

 

[Dahbomb]

If you have specific grievances in the patch notes where you or anyone else felt that we over nerfed something then please say so, we are always open to changes or suggestions based on solid reasoning. This is a community effort.

On the topic of nerfing Vergil:

I am one of the biggest Vergil fans there is both as a character and as a player of the character but those nerfs were pretty much required otherwise you would just have everyone picking Mag/X/Vergil as they would be the best in this. At least Mag has a high skill cap, Vergil has a low cap and even at a lower level he wrecks.

I played the character extensively first week of the game and I thought Zero and Vergil were damn near broken. I was shocked at the time that very few people agreed with me and it took a long time for people to accept that Vergil was better than Wesker. After I accepted that the character was near broke I tried figuring out ways that he could be fixed so he is actually played like he was intended. Vergil is basically a footsie/mix up character who has crap normal scaling meaning you need to go for resets. All of his powerful tools require meter and that's his game plan... you play footsies with him and mix people up until you have meter to steam roll.

The problem was that his damage out put with Spiral Swords was absurd so he quickly escaped the same problem for Wesker. The other problem was that he could DHC from almost every hyper into a full combo which made him a walking DHC glitch. These two factors alone made Wesker irrelevant as not only did Vergil more damage than him but he was a much better support. Then of course SS itself in the neutral was too good. Capcom never intended for Vergil to get a TOD off of opening someone up with SS that's why he has normal scaling and why SS have many hits to accelerate damage decay. Yet he escapes this issue by just building enough meter per loop for another SS making him meter self sufficient.

This is not even getting into his strength as an anchor or his strength as a lockdown character which used a variety of game engine bugs. Then you have two aspects of Vergil that no character has which is the ability to cancel his dive kick move on the ground into a launcher and that launcher into a normal into a safe special move. When I discovered that it was too much derp for me. Capcom had over compensated for his lack of air mobility and no whiff cancel on normals. Having large normals and godlike meter moves was his compensation but he got more stuff on top of that.

I signed on all those nerfs because I truly feel that those changes make Vergil a much more interesting and fun character to play. Not only that but he is much less miserable to fight against. I still think he is a very good character with place on teams as well as having key match up advantages but he's not goung to be a "if you don't have Vergil in 2nd/3rd slot you are playing the game wrong" type character.

 

[Zissou]

Here are my comments on the annotations for everything that aren't character-specific changes (I will be doing those soon- today or tomorrow at the latest!). Please bear in mind many of my suggestions are exceedingly nit-picky (word choice stuff, especially). Please don't take offense and know that I respect the immense amount of work that has gone into writing the annotations.

Feature set change stuff:
-On the last sentence of the improved net code paragraph, this bit: "as it has in so many other ways" seems unnecessarily pandering. We're already being nice about things- no need to overboard, IMO.

-On the replay mode bit, it seems to redundant to keep saying "world," and I think it would sound better to change it to "Having Replay Mode, or any recording mode at all, would be a welcome addition to the game so players can show off their stuff to everyone." (or something like that).

-I had never read the word "concision" before I saw it in hitbox viewer paragraph- I was surprised that it was actually a word! Why not just say 'consistency'?

-In the bit about PS3 system parity- I advocate removing "simply put." It's unnecessary and sounds condescending.

-In the intro video part, shouldn't nice-looking be hyphenated? (I am a hyphen nazi!)

System change stuff:
-In throw changes, I would change the wording from, "We feel as though a 3 frame increase would make throw techs a little more reasonable." to "We feel as though a 3 frame increase would be a nice balance between reaction and prediction." The exact wording doesn't matter so much- it just sounds to me like we're saying that Capcom was unreasonable in making the system the way it exists presently and it's unnecessary to take an accusatory tone here.

-In damage changes, "skewers" should read "skews"

-In damage changes, when talking about the chip damage change, I think we need some kind of math-based explanation so people understand that chipping someone out in our theoretical patched version of the game will take the same amount of time it does now.

-In the crossover counter notes, I think it would be more clear if, "Crossover counters are generally not strong neutral assists." was changed to "Assists which are strong crossover counters are generally not strong neutral assists." The current wording doesn't make sense. Also, after the last sentence, "The successful expenditure of a bar of meter into a move that hits should allow for post-hit combos in all situations where that move would normally be able to do so." we ought to give an example or two!

-Under other changes, I think it would be better to change the nebulous "gameplay flow" to wording like "one player game situations" or something like that. Improving "gameplay flow" sounds like a subjective ignorable suggestion. Calling something a "one player game situation" makes it more clear what we mean, and would be more likely to result in a change being implemented since Capcom seems quite inclined to get rid of that sort of thing (as evidenced by USF4 system changes).

-In the increased viable assist options bit, I advocate removing the word "stunning" from this sentence "As a result, the vast majority of teams use Dr. Doom, because there is a stunning lack of compelling assist options in the game despite a massive character count." and changing it to "severe" or something like that. "Severe" gets across the same message without making it sound like we are stunned by Capcom's incompetence or something like that.

 

[Vice]

As Doom what are the forms of movement I should be utilizing?

 

[Zissou]

As Doom what are the forms of movement I should be utilizing?

On the ground-
-tri-dash (either jump up fwd and then air dash down fwd quickly or do the reverse to move backwards).
-Doom hop- ground dash and then jump cancel the ground dash into a tri-dash. This is faster than just straight tri-dashing and you can block during a greater percentage of it if somebody tries to randomly bionic arm you or something (you can jump cancel during the ground dash portion to block, so while like tri-dashing, you can't block during the air dash part of the maneuver, in a tri-dash, this is 50% of the time, while during the Doom hop, it's just 25%). This also is the easiest way to get the follow-up combo after a grounded fwd throw consistently.

In the air-
-just regular air dash. Nice for getting to super jump height while retaining the ability to call assists (but be careful not to do footdive afterwards since you can no longer make it safe by air-dash cancelling it). Also useful for offensive approaches, i.e., super jump up fwd and then addf and go for j.M.
-flight and then zig zag air dash (i.e., alternating between diagonals like up fwd air dash xx down fwd air dash over and over again). This is pretty fast but can be difficult to control.
-flight and then plink dash (flight and then hold a direction plus M~L over and over (or however you prefer to plink dash). This is a bit more difficult to do but it's fast and precise.
-footdive (both S and fwd.H varieties). Footdive is under-appreciated and under-utilized as a means of mobility by a lot of Doom players. You can adjust your positioning for air finger lasers by doing one of the footdives and quickly special-canceling them. You can also cancel either footdive into flight and then do whatever you want from there. It gives you extra control over your aerial positioning, both of them are quick, and you preserve your air dash and air specials for later use during the jump. It also conditions your opponent and makes it difficult to tell when you're using a footdive offensively and when you're using it purely for mobility. Lower altitude fwd.H footdives are also a strong approach option, since you can air dash cancel them negating pushblock while calling an assist to maintain offensive pressure (many of Doom's other approach options are easier to push block out, like tri-dash offense, since you've already used your air dash, or butter gun, since you cannot air dash cancel it).

 

[Vice]

On the ground-
-tri-dash (either jump up fwd and then air dash down fwd quickly or do the reverse to move backwards).
-Doom hop- ground dash and then jump cancel the ground dash into a tri-dash. This is faster than just straight tri-dashing and you can block during a greater percentage of it if somebody tries to randomly bionic arm you or something (you can jump cancel during the ground dash portion to block, so while like tri-dashing, you can't block during the air dash part of the maneuver, in a tri-dash, this is 50% of the time, while during the Doom hop, it's just 25%). This also is the easiest way to get the follow-up combo after a grounded fwd throw consistently.

In the air-
-just regular air dash. Nice for getting to super jump height while retaining the ability to call assists (but be careful not to do footdive afterwards since you can no longer make it safe by air-dash cancelling it). Also useful for offensive approaches, i.e., super jump up fwd and then addf and go for j.M.
-flight and then zig zag air dash (i.e., alternating between diagonals like up fwd air dash xx down fwd air dash over and over again). This is pretty fast but can be difficult to control.
-flight and then plink dash (flight and then hold a direction plus M~L over and over (or however you prefer to plink dash). This is a bit more difficult to do but it's fast and precise.
-footdive (both S and fwd.H varieties). Footdive is under-appreciated and under-utilized as a means of mobility by a lot of Doom players. You can adjust your positioning for air finger lasers by doing one of the footdives and quickly special-canceling them. You can also cancel either footdive into flight and then do whatever you want from there. It gives you extra control over your aerial positioning, both of them are quick, and you preserve your air dash and air specials for later use during the jump. It also conditions your opponent and makes it difficult to tell when you're using a footdive offensively and when you're using it purely for mobility. Lower altitude fwd.H footdives are also a strong approach option, since you can air dash cancel them negating pushblock while calling an assist to maintain offensive pressure (many of Doom's other approach options are easier to push block out, like tri-dash offense, since you've already used your air dash, or butter gun, since you cannot air dash cancel it).

Thanks. Since I've placed Doom on my team I've been performing much better. I've even started placing in locals with YOLO tier Doom.

 

[Karsticles]

Here are my comments on the annotations for everything that aren't character-specific changes (I will be doing those soon- today or tomorrow at the latest!). Please bear in mind many of my suggestions are exceedingly nit-picky (word choice stuff, especially). Please don't take offense and know that I respect the immense amount of work that has gone into writing the annotations.

Feature set change stuff:
-On the last sentence of the improved net code paragraph, this bit: "as it has in so many other ways" seems unnecessarily pandering. We're already being nice about things- no need to overboard, IMO.

-On the replay mode bit, it seems to redundant to keep saying "world," and I think it would sound better to change it to "Having Replay Mode, or any recording mode at all, would be a welcome addition to the game so players can show off their stuff to everyone." (or something like that).

-I had never read the word "concision" before I saw it in hitbox viewer paragraph- I was surprised that it was actually a word! Why not just say 'consistency'?

-In the bit about PS3 system parity- I advocate removing "simply put." It's unnecessary and sounds condescending.

-In the intro video part, shouldn't nice-looking be hyphenated? (I am a hyphen nazi!)

System change stuff:
-In throw changes, I would change the wording from, "We feel as though a 3 frame increase would make throw techs a little more reasonable." to "We feel as though a 3 frame increase would be a nice balance between reaction and prediction." The exact wording doesn't matter so much- it just sounds to me like we're saying that Capcom was unreasonable in making the system the way it exists presently and it's unnecessary to take an accusatory tone here.

-In damage changes, "skewers" should read "skews"

-In damage changes, when talking about the chip damage change, I think we need some kind of math-based explanation so people understand that chipping someone out in our theoretical patched version of the game will take the same amount of time it does now.

-In the crossover counter notes, I think it would be more clear if, "Crossover counters are generally not strong neutral assists." was changed to "Assists which are strong crossover counters are generally not strong neutral assists." The current wording doesn't make sense. Also, after the last sentence, "The successful expenditure of a bar of meter into a move that hits should allow for post-hit combos in all situations where that move would normally be able to do so." we ought to give an example or two!

-Under other changes, I think it would be better to change the nebulous "gameplay flow" to wording like "one player game situations" or something like that. Improving "gameplay flow" sounds like a subjective ignorable suggestion. Calling something a "one player game situation" makes it more clear what we mean, and would be more likely to result in a change being implemented since Capcom seems quite inclined to get rid of that sort of thing (as evidenced by USF4 system changes).

-In the increased viable assist options bit, I advocate removing the word "stunning" from this sentence "As a result, the vast majority of teams use Dr. Doom, because there is a stunning lack of compelling assist options in the game despite a massive character count." and changing it to "severe" or something like that. "Severe" gets across the same message without making it sound like we are stunned by Capcom's incompetence or something like that.

No offense taken. Everyone benefits from proofreading. PM this to me please.

 

[shaowebb]

So has the notes been sent to Combofiend yet? Make certain to include an intro explaining you guys spent 83 pages debating, polling and voting on how best to retool the game from their players. You even brought me back to weigh in on Iron Fist since I had tried that guy with pretty well every character team imaginable to voice my main gripes to debate amongst yourselves.

This isn't just some random ass dude's changelog...its gotten a lot of debate. I'd love to see him take the views in it more seriously than just some random post regardless of whether or not Capcom will do anything with the game later.

 

[Dahbomb]

It wasn't just 83 pages... it was 83 pages plus some of the pages of the previous thread.

We are trying to finish it as soon as possible. I hope the recent Combofiend hint accelerates the process a bit. We are going to have it finished by Wednesday/Thursday for sure in time for Capcom Cup.

 

[onionfrog]

So has the notes been sent to Combofiend yet? Make certain to include an intro explaining you guys spent 83 pages debating, polling and voting on how best to retool the game from their players. You even brought me back to weigh in on Iron Fist since I had tried that guy with pretty well every character team imaginable to voice my main gripes to debate amongst yourselves.

This isn't just some random ass dude's changelog...its gotten a lot of debate. I'd love to see him take the views in it more seriously than just some random post regardless of whether or not Capcom will do anything with the game later.

Word.
Also mention that its been a several month long community effort!


That hint Combofiend dropped last night gave me hope.

 

[LakeEarth]

So has the notes been sent to Combofiend yet? Make certain to include an intro explaining you guys spent 83 pages debating, polling and voting on how best to retool the game from their players. You even brought me back to weigh in on Iron Fist since I had tried that guy with pretty well every character team imaginable to voice my main gripes to debate amongst yourselves.

This isn't just some random ass dude's changelog...its gotten a lot of debate. I'd love to see him take the views in it more seriously than just some random post regardless of whether or not Capcom will do anything with the game later.

When you guys email him, ask him where the hell that 3rd Strike Online patch. It's was "nearing completion" a half-year ago.

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

All this patch talk at the very least is entertaining. At least it seems people around here agree for the most of the changes, not all the time but it seemed to go pretty smoothly for such a intensive patch discussion.

 

[shaowebb]

All this patch talk at the very least is entertaining. At least it seems people around here agree for the most of the changes, not all the time but it seemed to go pretty smoothly for such a intensive patch discussion.

Yeah, I mean I originally argued heavily for Iron Fist to be given an air dash instead of the double jump and to lower his damage to makeup for the resulting amount of shenanigans he could get off that, but in the end I agree that double jump with air ok rising fang is a more fair option for his air game.

There has been a LOT of really deep discussions on cast here and a lot of weighing any new change vs any other proposed changes. Combofiend hopefully gets that when he receives this. I dont know if he'll care for the end results, agree or if anything will ever come of it, but he should definitely know how heavily you guys poured over this game in hopes of helping give Capcom a strong idea of overall what they community could agree upon if this was put to months of serious debate.

 

[racketpunch]

What kind of hint did Combo give out last night?

 

[Dahbomb]

What kind of hint did Combo give out last night?

Basically Yipes made an off hand comment how about he was glad that Capcom is removing the single player stuff from Ultra SF4 during the time Marn was doing his thing with Zero (and by thing I mean hitting people with the trilogy). Then Yipes said "too bad we can't do that in this game" and Combofiend's answer to that was...


Wait for it.........










..." not yet " ...

 

[racketpunch]

Haha I'll take that over nothing. At least we have that glimmer of hope.

 

[shaowebb]

If this game gets patched I'll come back to it guaranteed. Im currently just spending my time trying to work on getting a system in place for my own game and modding files in Injustice for custom stuff. I'd really like to have Marvel back though. Game had so much more potential than it realized and needed a patch badly.

Once this is sent is it cool to link to the posts on the notes in other forums for folks to look over? Might generate some attention for it. Let em whine and gripe if they want, but I honestly feel many would be quoting and getting hype for the bulk of all this. This has been going on for a full year and its pretty damned fair stuff once you look it all over in context to itself.

Quick Question though...

Rocket Raccoon:
*Angel Gift no longer hits high; now produces a red laser that reaches up to full screen height which causes the trap to trigger off of aerial opponents as well as grounded ones.
+Bear Trap startup reduced to 20 frames.
+Mad Hopper now lasts 1200 frames.
+Rocket Raccoon’s aerial and ground series are now more reliable; c.H now hits low, and j.M now hits overhead.
+Oil Bomb fire is refreshed when a new Oil Bomb is thrown on it; Oil Bomb now set on fire by any projectile.
+j.S hitstun and hitbox increased significantly.
+Rocket Skate now cancelable into j.S; Rocket Skate (all versions) startup reduced by 5.
+Spitfire projectile durability changed to 4 per shot; aerial version can be canceled into Rocket Skates; damage increased to 60,000 per shot.
+Grab Bag startup reduced to 20 frames; damage decay from resulting combos decreased.
+General trap duration increased to 300 frames.

Assists: Double Spitfire M, Pendulum, Oil Bomb

Thats wont lead to block infinites and unblockables will it? Sort of sounds murky like I can just call Chun lightning legs and start popping oil fires all day.

 

[enzo_gt]

What kind of hint did Combo give out last night?

I linked to it and quoted it exactly a few posts up.

 

[racketpunch]

I linked to it and quoted it exactly a few posts up.

Thanks. I saw that but I was hoping there was more to it and I can't view archives on my phone.

 

[GuardianE]

MegaMan Steve just reminded me. When Marvel is patched, they need to add in the entire intro sequence.

 

[Professor Beef]

MegaMan Steve just reminded me. When Marvel is patched, they need to add in the entire intro sequence.

"when"

lol

 

[onionfrog]

Good Games Karst!
I was trying a point Hawkeye team, but my Dante and Vergil are ass!!

I can't believe I choked on that last game.
Suprisingly my storm was actually putting in work...
;_;

 

["God's Beard!"]

When you say who worked on the patch notes, include an alphabetical list of everyone in the thread.

 

[GuardianE]

"when"

lol

;-)

 

[Karsticles]

Thats wont lead to block infinites and unblockables will it? Sort of sounds murky like I can just call Chun lightning legs and start popping oil fires all day.

No more than Flame Carpet can!

Good Games Karst!
I was trying a point Hawkeye team, but my Dante and Vergil are ass!!

I can't believe I choked on that last game.
Suprisingly my storm was actually putting in work...
;_;

Your Vergil is super bad, but you have Dante combos beyond that I have - lol.

That last match was wacko for me. My brain just wasn't processing anything right.

GGs, and I'm sorry to see you joining the dark side.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";92791456]When you say who worked on the patch notes, include an alphabetical list of everyone in the thread.[/QUOTE]
Do you want to put that together?

 

[onionfrog]

Your Vergil is super bad, but you have Dante combos beyond that I have - lol.

So I'm not quite the worst Dante on GAF. lol

That last match was wacko for me. My brain just wasn't processing anything right.

GGs, and I'm sorry to see you joining the dark side.

Don't worry I'm not joining the dark side. I'm just trying to find a point Hawkeye team that I can enjoy.

Rapid Slash assist is too good for Hawkeye though.

 

[Karsticles]

So I'm not quite the worst Dante on GAF. lol

Don't worry I'm not joining the dark side. I'm just trying to find a point Hawkeye team that I can enjoy.

Rapid Slash assist is too good for Hawkeye though.

Hawkeye/Dante/Strider

And if you ever want to see my terrible, terrible Dante, let me know. ;-D Expect a 75% dropped combo rate!

And I am just sad that you're getting rid of Felicia. I think your original team is good, you just aren't aggressive enough with her. Did you play against MangoSentinel on here yet? He will open your mind to what that team can be doing.

I typed this up just now for the theory patch intro (not the annotation):

INTRODUCTION:
This theoretical patch is the work of several NeoGAF members who love to play this game. We began work on this patch back in [DATE]. Since then, we have spent [NUMBER] posts of discussion, through four drafts, creating these changes. We have consulted with others who know better than us when our knowledge was short, and we have taken breaks here and there to let ideas settle and ferment before we applied the cement. We do not claim to have made the best decision in every case, but all of our decisions were thoughtful and deliberated. All we ask of those who look at these notes is that they are treated with the dignity we bestowed upon them through our dedication.

To ensure readers have a chance to understand why we suggested the changes we did, we have created an annotated patch note list at the following link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Zolcw8bTvVsl8RKtgpFBhuGmWF3KehdUC1XJzN2HxXs/

All decisions were made through the unanimous voting of four voluntary committee members: Dahbomb, Frantic, Karsticles, and Zissou. In special circumstances where one member disagreed with the majority vote, we worked toward understanding and compromise. When neither were possible, the change was implemented, and the dissenting committee member’s opinion was noted in the annotations.

We do not intend to change the contents of this document aside from rephrasing things for clarification purposes. Instead, we hope that this document will spark intelligent debate about the current state of Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3, and that it will help foster the birth of ideas and discussion throughout the player base. Most importantly, we hope that Capcom will see the passion the player base has for this game, and will apply a rebalancing patch to the game. If this were to happen, we would be honored for any of our ideas to be incorporated into the patch, or even considered for such.

 

[onionfrog]

Hawkeye/Dante/Strider

And if you ever want to see my terrible, terrible Dante, let me know. ;-D Expect a 75% dropped combo rate!

Hmm that would work. Dante/Strider is a great combination.

And I am just sad that you're getting rid of Felicia. I think your original team is good, you just aren't aggressive enough with her. Did you play against MangoSentinel on here yet? He will open your mind to what that team can be doing.

Woah hold on, I'm not dropping Felicia!
I just want to strengthen my Hawkeye by playing him on point since he's easily my weakest character on my main team.

Felicia is still da best!

I tried out Hulk/Felicia/Dante in training mode earlier and it was pretty fun.
Full combos off random Gamma Crushes if I DHC to kitty helper.

I haven't played against mango sentinel yet.

The only reason why I might stop playing Felicia is if they actually added Megaman to the game!

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Dahbomb is the biggest Vergil fanboy on GAF. Do you really think he would let us kill the character?

The only Vergil change I feel iffy about is Helm Breaker not canceling into s.S.

If you have specific grievances in the patch notes where you or anyone else felt that we over nerfed something then please say so, we are always open to changes or suggestions based on solid reasoning. This is a community effort.

On the topic of nerfing Vergil:

I am one of the biggest Vergil fans there is both as a character and as a player of the character but those nerfs were pretty much required otherwise you would just have everyone picking Mag/X/Vergil as they would be the best in this. At least Mag has a high skill cap, Vergil has a low cap and even at a lower level he wrecks.

I played the character extensively first week of the game and I thought Zero and Vergil were damn near broken. I was shocked at the time that very few people agreed with me and it took a long time for people to accept that Vergil was better than Wesker. After I accepted that the character was near broke I tried figuring out ways that he could be fixed so he is actually played like he was intended. Vergil is basically a footsie/mix up character who has crap normal scaling meaning you need to go for resets. All of his powerful tools require meter and that's his game plan... you play footsies with him and mix people up until you have meter to steam roll.

The problem was that his damage out put with Spiral Swords was absurd so he quickly escaped the same problem for Wesker. The other problem was that he could DHC from almost every hyper into a full combo which made him a walking DHC glitch. These two factors alone made Wesker irrelevant as not only did Vergil more damage than him but he was a much better support. Then of course SS itself in the neutral was too good. Capcom never intended for Vergil to get a TOD off of opening someone up with SS that's why he has normal scaling and why SS have many hits to accelerate damage decay. Yet he escapes this issue by just building enough meter per loop for another SS making him meter self sufficient.

This is not even getting into his strength as an anchor or his strength as a lockdown character which used a variety of game engine bugs. Then you have two aspects of Vergil that no character has which is the ability to cancel his dive kick move on the ground into a launcher and that launcher into a normal into a safe special move. When I discovered that it was too much derp for me. Capcom had over compensated for his lack of air mobility and no whiff cancel on normals. Having large normals and godlike meter moves was his compensation but he got more stuff on top of that.

I signed on all those nerfs because I truly feel that those changes make Vergil a much more interesting and fun character to play. Not only that but he is much less miserable to fight against. I still think he is a very good character with place on teams as well as having key match up advantages but he's not goung to be a "if you don't have Vergil in 2nd/3rd slot you are playing the game wrong" type character.

Nah like I said I think Vergil would still be pretty good, but it would just alienate a lot of players. It would probably only be Vergil fans playing him now (which I suppose isn't really a problem, haha).

And I can't post my grievances as it would be far too many. Simply put, I want a different game than you guys. That's why I didn't participate nearly as much as I could have during the patch talk. I'll feel silly for it if this is the patch that actually happens, as I could have contributed good ideas and really pressed for some of the things that I mentioned, but oh well.

Looking at the first page, did you guys remove the Chris overhead?

 

[Dahbomb]

Looking at the first page, did you guys remove the Chris overhead?

We removed it then we put it back in but as a "charged" version of the Stun Rod. Basically if you charge up the stun rod it turns into an overhead and does more hit stun. You would still have the original stun rod under this change.

The overhead change was mostly a parity change as Chris was the only one who lacked any sort of mix ups beyond just tick throw set up (which every character has).

I'll feel silly for it if this is the patch that actually happens, as I could have contributed good ideas and really pressed for some of the things that I mentioned, but oh well.

It's STILL not too late for it.

You don't want to be in the position of "man I can't believe they made that change, I was about to tell the guys to not put it in the list!".

I still recommend reading the full annotation list and at least point out inaccuracies and inconsistencies. This goes for everyone here.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Hawkeye/Dante/Strider

And if you ever want to see my terrible, terrible Dante, let me know. ;-D Expect a 75% dropped combo rate!

And I am just sad that you're getting rid of Felicia. I think your original team is good, you just aren't aggressive enough with her. Did you play against MangoSentinel on here yet? He will open your mind to what that team can be doing.

Hmm that would work. Dante/Strider is a great combination.


Woah hold on, I'm not dropping Felicia!
I just want to strengthen my Hawkeye by playing him on point since he's easily my weakest character on my main team.

Felicia is still da best!

I tried out Hulk/Felicia/Dante in training mode earlier and it was pretty fun.

Full combos off random Gamma Crushes if I DHC to kitty helper.

We have yet to play Onion. I see you on often, but I don't invite people......since I'm retarded and still haven't fully grasped how psn works. If you wanna play then you will have to invite me. I really hate Felicia mirrors though.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

We removed it then we put it back in but as a "charged" version of the Stun Rod. Basically if you charge up the stun rod it turns into an overhead and does more hit stun. You would still have the original stun rod under this change.

The overhead change was mostly a parity change as Chris was the only one who lacked any sort of mix ups beyond just tick throw set up (which every character has).


It's STILL not too late for it.

You don't want to be in the position of "man I can't believe they made that change, I was about to tell the guys to not put it in the list!".

I still recommend reading the full annotation list and at least point out inaccuracies and inconsistencies. This goes for everyone here.

Haha, well Chris does look a little lacking, so even though I disagreed with the prone shot cancelling into specials, you might as well put it in.

And just watching this match between Insaynne and Marn.....that Bionic Arm nerf will hurt quite a bit considering you guys didn't give Spencer much of anything. In my opinion Spencer has only stayed relevant because of the up grapple damage.

 

[Dahbomb]

Well I was against Bionic Arm nerf since the start but was eventually out voted.

The overhead buff on Spencer is pretty legit though.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Well I was against Bionic Arm nerf since the start but was eventually out voted.

The overhead buff on Spencer is pretty legit though.

The overhead buff is cool and it'll help of course since Spencer isn't particularly safe. Better recovery on grapples would be nice, or if he could retract them with S.....or both. Would make his neutral a bit more interesting.

Since I don't know how many frames Bionic Bomber is currently, I don't know how much the buff actually is. Would be nice to use that in the neutral as well. And Armor Piercer should not have as much startup as it does when it's not used in a combo. It should just be the same as using it in a combo.