Now that is wicked exciting!
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Westworld - Live in Your World, Play in Ours - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter RatskyWatsky
- Start date
Now that is wicked exciting!
I don't think you have to be playing along to be self-aware. You can attain consciousness and still be bound to suggestion and/or control against your will. Humans are self-aware. We can still be put under hypnosis or made to do things against our will when drugged, or have implants which allow others to control our motor functions. That doesn't make us any less aware that we're fucked, it actually makes it more painful.
I think question of whether Bernard is self-aware is not him following Ford's instructions because those are hardcoded as part of his physical system, the question is whether he does what he does because of scripting or if he is in fact naturally reacting to memories and interactions based on a personality he has developed on his own.
HighResTomato
Member
Ford is literally Dr Gero, scheming around building a android army.
MIND BLOWN.
More_Badass
Member
I think as of now, we can imply that MIB isn't the sick monster/merely bored player we originally thought him to be from the pilot, but is trying to help Dolores, make her remember her past so she can reach the maze and finish what Arnold started. If he is William and we know his backstory now, those lines from the pilot ("all this time, you still don't remember me?") mean a bit more now
MiamiWesker
Member
Well some of my questions are based on past episodes. I assume we are getting the incident timing due to something someone said, I don't remember when that was.
Ford says that he and Dolores are the last ones left from that time. so unless they fired everyone, lots of people died.
Oh damn forgot about that line.
Edit: and yeah, as they stated in the latest ep, they seem to react to violence.
He said that there is "no one else who was there, no one else who understands as we understand", suggesting there is a connection deeper than just having been existing or working at Westworld at the beginning. I took it to suggest that Dolores was the host closest to Arnold, who Arnold opened up to. Ford has always said that Arnold was a sort of reclusive person who preferred the hosts and did not like people, so Ford was probably the only person who thought he truly understood Arnold. So I don't take it as a literal "everyone else we worked with got killed whoops" statement rather than a statement about how she is his only window left through which he could look back at Arnold. It seems to be the same reason he keeps the replica family around, because they remind him that Arnold created them for him. Everything Ford done seems motivated by Arnold even after his death. The question is, is he doing it out of admiration and love for Arnold, or is he planning something as the final middle finger to a partner he felt betrayed by?
More_Badass
Member
My mind just exploded.
MiamiWesker
Member
Good points. He seems to really hate Dolores so I am leaning toward he is angry she took his friend away. Unless there is something else going on where she gets to stay active because Arnold did something. Does he love or dislike Arnold is a big part of the mystery behind his motivation to be sure.
I'm also not yet done with other theories where Ford and Arnold are not two versions of the same man or if there is some robot switch or something along those lines.
Uhm,
Dolores : No, please, don't hurt him, I'll do whatever you say!
MiB after slapping her: I didn't pay all this money cause I wanted it easy, I want you to fight.
MiB Shoots Teddy: God damn it, it's good to be back.
MiB grabs Dolores: Let's celebrate!
I'm not sure how you can in any way read that any other way.
More_Badass
Member
I really don't think he raped her. Actually, given how MIB is familiar with Ford and Arnold and the maze and the park's history, I'm thinking that's merely an act for the watching eyes of management and Ford, so they wouldn't be privy to what he's actually doing
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I no longer believe the show has the research background to actually make any assumptions about how much they do or don't know about various theories of consciousness and machine intelligence, but I maintain that if Bernard passes as human for decades there's something more than just scripting and improvisation going on
More_Badass
Member
Also we never saw what the MIB did before showing up. The following loops is when the gun and picture are found. I think it's safe to assume he planted those items to break them out of their loops
I don't think he has anything to do with planting anything. There's nothing even suggesting that. He's here to play the game, not to waste time with stuff like that. The gun was clearly not planted by MiB because it was something Arnold instructed Dolores to find. She hears his voice and walks out of her house at night, gets to the spot, and then asks "here?" before digging it up. It's the bicameral system, not MiB.
More_Badass
Member
Ah, didn't make that connection.
Agreed. I'm pretty convinced he didn't rape her.
Remember at the restaurant, when Theresa said something like "board members are coming" and Ford answered "they're already here" ?
And why not Arnold W. Beer ? Ford is above a stupid anagram like this...
Yes, "around" William, because he can't be killed by the ambush. Like at the start of this episode : Maeve exits her place, and we can see a duel in the street where the host doesn't shoot immediately when the guest is fumbling whith his gun.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
Yeah, I can't imagine him raping her from what we've seen from him since then. Obviously at first we're supposed to think he is. But he seems like one of the least likely to indulge in that right now. One of those purposely deceptive moments, like our introduction to Teddy on the train.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
He likes cutting up people. He did the same to Maev. He was going to cut up Deloras as well. He sliced the throat of Lawrence when he no longer needed him. He uses his knife liberally in the mexican town shootout.
I am guessing something happened to him at the end of the maze that fucked him up for life. Could be the ghost nation indians cutting him up or something. he probably got scalped or something.
Have we seen him without hat ?
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
Like maybe he knows a phrase to awaken the Delores that he's familiar with from the past. Or at the very least start her down the path to becoming the Delores that he loves. The blank slate Delores would probably just be infuriating to see otherwise.
*Sigh*
I'm begrudgingly accepting that y'all were right about William being the Man in Black. It's just so hard to refute, there is so little evidence to disprove it at this point. Their storyline is in its own little bubble separate from everything else. There has to be a reason for that
I don't think it's for show at all. MiB clearly doesn't think of the hosts as people and doesn't relate to them as human beings. He has no qualms about doing very hurtful things to them because he knows that it is not real. They'll be fine the next day, they won't even remember him. Whole thing's a scam. He probably fell in love with Dolores thinking it was genuine awareness she was showing, only to be betrayed at the very end by the true nature of her programming.
afternoon delight
Member
I am disappointed a bit that they weren't being super literal with the "there's not much difference between what's inside you and us anymore" line of thinking like, humans had shot themselves up with so much nanomachines and false organs, limbs, etc that it'd take more than a few head slams to kill us, like we'd see some real Blade Runner stuff of cyborg-on-cyborg human war. Ah well.
I like that there's still fragility to being human.
I like that there's still fragility to being human.
This is what I've been thinking. William is totally in on the fantasy of Westworld now, letting it supersede his reality outside of the park. An intimate betrayal like Dolores' programming taking over and demonstrating that she isn't actually "real," or Dolores literally betraying William and attacking him or something, could certainly alter William's outlook on the park and hosts and push it towards MiB's.
Lashley
Why does he wear the mask!?
Yep, that's when I knew shit wasn't right
10. Last one is 91 mins.
Could be they are in orbit or something.
More_Badass
Member
Oh, I didnt catch that. Interesting
Thank you
Latvian Hitman
Member
Nolan/Joy aren't capable of disasters on the level of True Detective S2.
Still think it'll obviously be early 2018 before S2, though.
I have had the feeling he was related to Ford for a while now. The way he is allowed to do anything he wants kind of hints at it.
I though that had something to do with him being super mega rich / famous having some foundation that some other guest mentions and he tells the guest to shut up and let him have his vacation
Veritigo_X
Member
If any guest we're familiar with is going to get killed in the park, it's probably Logan. That would give William a nice promotion in the company...
Even mega rich people can't have every thing, he had to have connections as well.
William stops Dolores and saves the park, signs an NDA promising never to talk about what happened to the outside world and to Delos. He leaves disillusioned, but regrets that in stopping Dolores he never solved the mystery she was designed for. He wants to know what happened to Arnold, but Ford won't tell him. He respects Ford for creating such a lifelike world with so much detail that it even fooled him, so when Delos completes their buyover of Westworld, as a member of the board and son-in-law of the head of Delos, he ensures that Ford's creations are protected even from his own company. He becomes more and more obsessed with finding the secret behind Westworld over the years, he keeps going back on his own dime. Eventually even after he retires, he continues to return to Westworld. With him no longer in a position to oppose anyone else on the board, Delos starts to aggressively pursue other means of extracting what they want out of the park.
Delos has smuggled enough data to create their own mass produced android army. They come descending on Westworld after seeing what Ford has planned and they murder everyone in the park to cover it up. As things are about to end, Ford starts his master plan and that's to make androids and humans ONE, he will be able to control everyone like a god. The key to his plans is inside Rei, I mean Dolores, but as it's about to happen MiB enters the Maze and messes up the plans and everything is fucked up. to be continued.
BattleMonkey
Member
I don't mind the delay in seasons, but do hope that they do have a decent ending for S1, if anything make it well self contained that it could stand alone.
I watched it yesterday and thoroughly loved it. Jeffrey Wright's acting when he found out he was a host was amazing as was the 'What door?' and the 'It doesn't look like anything to me' lines. I didn't really pay attention to theories saying he was a hosts so those moments were great. Anthony Hopkins is so good at playing the bad guy.
I'm trying to wrap my head around some stuff -
What triggered Dolores breaking free in the 'old' timeline? Her father's bug and "these violent delights have violent ends" was in the present timeline. It's been clear from episode one that the backlog of memories and experiences is what gives birth to consciousness and Bernard cemented that before taking Teresa our in the woods, but at the point of the "old timeline", she can't have been more than a few years old, which isn't enough given that no other hosts had this problem in the ensuing 35 years. But she's still going outside her loop, breaking her profile, and questioning the nature of her reality with William. That, plus she seems to be remembering past experiences (getting shot at the ranch, flashes of the church town, seeing herself in different places) while with William, sometimes literally standing next to him, or immediately prior to meeting him. Those memories should only be accessible with the reveries patch, which was written by old Ford, in the present timeline. But Arnold, Bernarnold, was talking to Dolores in a Remote Diagnostics Station about her issues and 'letting her run with it' presumably in beta - while plenty of customers had already gone through and Logan said the place was hemorrhaging cash. Plus, Logan said the partner was already dead and the evidence erased at that point.
Was Ford quoting Arnold when he said that thing about mistakes forging evolution, and when we saw Bernard say it to Dolores, it was actually Arnold saying it to Old Dolores, instead of Bernard repeating what Ford told him?
This was supposed to be like two sentences long, but it's like pulling a thread on a sweater here.
I think that given the amount of foreshadowing that we can see with Bernard in retrospect, it's likely that the parallels we see between the Man in Black and William make the the same person, but I just want to figure out how they're going to tie it all together, because theres some big pieces missing.
What triggered Dolores breaking free in the 'old' timeline? Her father's bug and "these violent delights have violent ends" was in the present timeline. It's been clear from episode one that the backlog of memories and experiences is what gives birth to consciousness and Bernard cemented that before taking Teresa our in the woods, but at the point of the "old timeline", she can't have been more than a few years old, which isn't enough given that no other hosts had this problem in the ensuing 35 years. But she's still going outside her loop, breaking her profile, and questioning the nature of her reality with William. That, plus she seems to be remembering past experiences (getting shot at the ranch, flashes of the church town, seeing herself in different places) while with William, sometimes literally standing next to him, or immediately prior to meeting him. Those memories should only be accessible with the reveries patch, which was written by old Ford, in the present timeline. But Arnold, Bernarnold, was talking to Dolores in a Remote Diagnostics Station about her issues and 'letting her run with it' presumably in beta - while plenty of customers had already gone through and Logan said the place was hemorrhaging cash. Plus, Logan said the partner was already dead and the evidence erased at that point.
Was Ford quoting Arnold when he said that thing about mistakes forging evolution, and when we saw Bernard say it to Dolores, it was actually Arnold saying it to Old Dolores, instead of Bernard repeating what Ford told him?
This was supposed to be like two sentences long, but it's like pulling a thread on a sweater here.
I think that given the amount of foreshadowing that we can see with Bernard in retrospect, it's likely that the parallels we see between the Man in Black and William make the the same person, but I just want to figure out how they're going to tie it all together, because theres some big pieces missing.