We don't know that MiB ever met Arnold, only that he knows who he is now. He knows he died in Westworld and that he planned it. There's no indication that he witnessed it. He just wants to know what Arnold left behind. When Ford and Dolores speak, she says that the last thing Arnold said to her before he died was that she was going to help him to destroy Westworld. I think that's what the maze is. What it has always been. The endgame is apocalypse. William will prevent the first attempt. MiB is back to help trigger the second attempt.
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Westworld - Live in Your World, Play in Ours - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter RatskyWatsky
- Start date
We don't know that MiB ever met Arnold, only that he knows who he is now. He knows he died in Westworld and that he planned it. There's no indication that he witnessed it. He just wants to know what Arnold left behind. When Ford and Dolores speak, she says that the last thing Arnold said to her before he died was that she was going to help him to destroy Westworld. I think that's what the maze is. What it has always been. The endgame is apocalypse. William will prevent the first attempt. MiB is back to help trigger the second attempt.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Why wait 30 years to do it though?
Right, most likely things are not directly linear, the mib Lawrence events were obviously not at the exact same time Lawrence was chilling with william but that doesn't mean there's a 30 year time gap. It's most likely a matter of days but all in the same rough timeline, just off a day or two and they'll eventually get on the same track when william and mib meet up.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
That's one problem with the theory that I don't think the show would just gloss over. Then again it could be a bit of a misdirect since the only one we've seen in length is decommissioned. The old creaky ones could be older than the William storyline, since we know he's coming into the park after it has been operating for a little while. I'm not ready to hop aboard that train yet but it's hard to refute.
Whew, that gunslinger scene with Delores gave me chills.
andythinkpad
Member
Damn that's big penis.
I remember Logan mentioning that one of the partner creators offed himself in the park. Wasn't this episode, it was earlier.
metalslimer
Member
There are way too many strange things happening for there not to be something going on. At the very least Dolores seemingly ending up alone in so many scenes seems to indicate that she at least is in different portions of time.
Robot Pants
Member
Yea wasn't she alone in the graveyard outside of Pariah, then suddenly to her left were Logan and William?
I don't know. I'm just along for the ride
DorkLord54
Member
While I don't believe that William = MiB (in fact, I think MiB's conversations with Teddy and Ford disprove it, especially when he implies that he was there when Arnold offed himself, and seems to want vengeance on Ford for what happened), the beginning scene at the cemetery and the ending scene on the train all but confirm that, at the very least, the scenes concerning William and Logan take place in the past, and Dolores is retracing her steps to figure out the maze.
Think about it, when you talk about something happening that sends a business into free fall, and that you're trying to take advantage of that to buy over the place, would you be referring to something that happened in recent years or something that happened for 34 years ago?
The way Logan talks about the suicide just before the park opened, and William's bewilderment at Westworld in general, suggests that this is something relatively new. If William is an executive vice president at Delos today, would he really be this surprised at everything?
The way Logan talks about the suicide just before the park opened, and William's bewilderment at Westworld in general, suggests that this is something relatively new. If William is an executive vice president at Delos today, would he really be this surprised at everything?
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
This isn't the first time we've seen Dolores alone when she's clearly with other people. In the last episode, she and William were talking by the campfire, and then everything around Dolores faded to black, and she experienced one of her flashbacks again.
It says he worked his way up and wasn't from a high standing, prior to that moment of him becoming VP he probably couldn't even fathom buying a ticket to Westworld.
Vic_Viper
Member
He says that he helped stop the incident. As in stopped the hosts from killing everyone. Dosent once mention that he met Arnold though.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
That's one of the things that still gives the William = MiB theory some credence. If the park was open for 3 decades, why is William so amazed by everything for his first visit, and why did he never go as a kid? Unless he grew up poor.
Yeah, I'm not all that interested in most of the discussion surrounding the show.
However, maybe that gets at my frustration with it. Westworld is a show that is so focused on, and obsessed with, the puzzle at its center that there's little else to talk about. I think there are thematic ideas at play here about storytelling and gaming that are worth discussing but even those are wrapped inside the puzzle box.
It's not that I don't enjoy the show but I wish it was about something other than the central mystery. Even LOST had a core story of survival. There is no narrative here other than the search for the maze (and what the hell is that even?) It's just riddles within riddles and it's starting to get a little frustrating.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Oh snap, that's right...lol.
I'm not talking about him buying a ticket to Westworld, I'm talking about him being a normal functioning human being. If you are an executive vice president at Disney Corp, even if you have never been to Disneyworld or Disneyland you would have a good understanding of what it is and what to expect.
Artificial intelligence? Humanoid robots? Ethics?
Assuming that Logan's company bought a stake in westworld, it would mean that it's just one of many holdings/investments that they have. William coming from a poorer background, wouldn't know any details about the elite's playground. He also wouldn't necessarily be working with anything related to westworld.
LumpOfCole
Member
Arnold was Samaritan, Dolores is the Machine. That will be the big reveal during he finale. Makes sense with the timeline too.
Yeah I'm leaning towards that as well, though not exactly in that Samaritan v Machine format since the Machine didn't really have any ill intentions for mankind.
Arnold as a pure AI with no limitations, maybe based off of Ford himself. Every host in Westworld is based upon his template, but diminished. Dolores was chosen to finish what he started.
I'm sure that's what it'll end up being. Dolores maybe kills Mib. That's what I'm guessing so far.
Even if they took it over, Westworld would still be one of many investments.
Remember this takes place in the future where these things are possible, corporations have likely bloated to massive degrees. They would have had to have a lot of capital to buy a controlling stake in Westworld.
DorkLord54
Member
I think Lost's biggest strength from the get-go that Westworld still largely lacks outside of a few standouts is characters. It's the reason why I kept coming back, even after they killed off my favorite character at the beginning of S5, not for the mystery, but to see the characters I cared about get off that damn island once and for all. Right now, Dolores, Ford, MiB, and Maeve are the only characters I really care about.
I hear what you're saying, but I think the immediate characterization elements are strong enough to stand on their own, especially with some of the really fantastic performances we're getting. I could almost say that the maze is the least interesting part of the show, like some amorphous future MacGuffin they're trying to bait us with while we're just trying to watch characters grow and/or get their metaphorical onion layers peeled back through the great work that Anthony Hopkins, Ed Harris, Evan Rachel Wood, Thandie Newton et al. are putting out. Even the little stuff, like Ben Barnes's slight smile when William refuses to help him, has me more invested than whatever Westworld's Infinity Stone-of-a-maze turns out to be. It will be whatever it is whenever it turns out to be it.
If nothing else, I do have to say that you have an interesting show on your hands when none of the post-episode discussion revolves around the full tour of a Cowboy-era Mexican border town's Roman-styled orgy bathhouse.
TheMortarion
Member
In the trailer for upcoming episodes, there is a shot of Dolores face to face with the MIB. It looks like she is wearing the powder blue button up she put on in this weeks episode. At 0:41 in the video. Doesn't that debunk the theory?
She's repeating her steps from 30 years ago.
See this picture, she's wearing it in the present time line.
http://imgur.com/tWDnSfJ
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
Haha, I wasn't going to say anything but it can't go without mention. My first reaction was "Wow, good for him."
Robot Pants
Member
I'm starting to think Arnold isn't real and never actually existed.
A damn good point. I think the characters of Westworld represent interesting things but they're not interesting in and of themselves. If that makes any sense.
THAT would be an interesting discussion.
And I too love the performances. And the eerie mood. And the setting. I do wish the storytelling wasn't so damned obtuse, though. All these characters have goals and desires that we are not privy to in any concrete or emotionally resonant or plain easily understandable way. It's a cold, intelligent, and rather mechanical show (heh), and could use a little more heart.
Robot Pants
Member
She's in da maze breh
who is Arnold? I'm confused.
Also that girl giving the BJ around 43 min has the best ass ever.....
DorkLord54
Member
Arnold's commands and Bernard's conversations are beginning to make her compulsively search for the maze, and is implied to have found it before.
Donkey Dong coming to a pornhub near you.
Mr. Pointy
Member
Well that's a humdinger of a story, pardner.
I think the show desperately wants to be clever and secretive, and in doing so lacks honesty. No character is fully honest with the audience with regards to who they are and what they represent. This provides fun breadcrumbs for the mysteries but it makes it hard to be invested in who they are because everything feels a bit like a trick.
MiB said that when he first got there he opened one up and they were beautiful but are now made of flesh and bone like us. William does not seem like the type to do something like that and we can see that they're already made out of flesh and bone when he's in there.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Oh man, another awesome episode.
- Anthony Hopkins was on fire this episode. Between his meeting at the end with MIB and his story at the beginning to Delores, this dude's god complex is seriously coming out full frontal.
- Speaking of full frontal, that crazy orgy brothel goldmember scene. Woof.
- I really liked that last scene, the tech's unbridled joy at getting the bird to fly, and it landing on Maeve's finger. That was great, and that really ramps the story forward so fast.
- Oh man, now Lawrence is a big bad outlaw. I wonder if he's gonna shitkick MIB.
- Logan is literally the biggest douchebag on this entire show, and we have a man with a god complex and serious ethical blindspots running the whole shindig. I loved seeing William leave him to get his ass beat. Though man, he's probably lost his fucking job by doing that hahahaha.
- Oh, and speaking of the above, speculation on what happens between William and Logan based on the upcoming episodes preview released tonight:
- I like that MIB embraced the complete villain role just cause there was no good villains in Westworld.
- I loved Delores's line "I imagined a story where I wasn't the damsel." Fuck yeah.
- Anthony Hopkins was on fire this episode. Between his meeting at the end with MIB and his story at the beginning to Delores, this dude's god complex is seriously coming out full frontal.
- Speaking of full frontal, that crazy orgy brothel goldmember scene. Woof.
- I really liked that last scene, the tech's unbridled joy at getting the bird to fly, and it landing on Maeve's finger. That was great, and that really ramps the story forward so fast.
- Oh man, now Lawrence is a big bad outlaw. I wonder if he's gonna shitkick MIB.
- Logan is literally the biggest douchebag on this entire show, and we have a man with a god complex and serious ethical blindspots running the whole shindig. I loved seeing William leave him to get his ass beat. Though man, he's probably lost his fucking job by doing that hahahaha.
- Oh, and speaking of the above, speculation on what happens between William and Logan based on the upcoming episodes preview released tonight:
I think William is going to kill Logan, for real. You see Logan licking Delores's face, so he seems to have fully embraced the 'Big Bad' role instead of just playing it Black Hat. Earlier, you see William pulling a knife out before walking to someone on the ground. We already know that Westworld firearms can't kill a guest... but a knife can. And if every other host is dead (except Delores, who is no longer restricted by Westworld rules), then William can easily kill Logan. Dude's gone fully native.
- I like that MIB embraced the complete villain role just cause there was no good villains in Westworld.
- I loved Delores's line "I imagined a story where I wasn't the damsel." Fuck yeah.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
I feel like the show is actually really straightforward but people seem to have gotten this conception that it's way more complex than it actually is.
Mr. Pointy
Member
That's a humdinger of a donger, pardner.
Robot Pants
Member
Logan is a host though.
Or is that Hector in the preview?
Oh I think it's Hector
Y'all are getting crazy.
I'm enjoying the show well enough, but like others have already said, and as evidenced by this thread, the quest to "solve" this show and the lack of discussion on anything besides the fan theories illustrates how empty the rest of the show is.